Suggestion: Make a pure turn-based combat RPG

[Volourn]

No, Iolo's hence the q was directed at him...

[Revolver]

Isn't that ShadowPaladin's avatar?

[Volourn]

Yes, which is why Ia sked the question. Hehe.

[S4ur0n27]

Yeah, hope it ain't him.

[Volourn]

It's not. He's not a big fan of turn base combat, and he actually likes NWN combat system (though he HATED the OC :angry: ).

[howling1]

I'll make this simple,

 

If it's Turn Based,

 

I ain't buying it.

 

Why?

 

Because TB games are so slow paced they bore me silly...

[Iolo]

And if it's real time, I was an auto pause functionality so that I can at least simulate turn based even though it never really would be. The tactical options, as an example, of being able to delay your actions or ready an action when something happens (like a spell being cast) just don''t exist in RT or aren't done well. Will be picking up Silent Storm most likely though.

[Revolver]

And if it's real time, I was an auto pause functionality so that I can at least simulate turn based even though it never really would be. The tactical options, as an example, of being able to delay your actions or ready an action when something happens (like a spell being cast) just don''t exist in RT or aren't done well. Will be picking up Silent Storm most likely though.

You would really try to simulate turn-based? I'd go crazy slogging through all those time wasting minor point A to point B combats ever-present in RT RPGs turn by turn. Thats the problem w/ turn-based concessions to a real-time game. It should be either pure RT or TB.

[jaberwocki]

yes make a turned base game please.

[Judge Hades]

ToEE's combat is perfect. I would like to see that combat style in an actual good game at some point.

[Megatron]

Bah, you're being to hard on TOEE. It's a good game overall, just a few bugs. Not that bigger deal, I managed to play it for a while without running into a bug.

[pulp]

Pulp: Enemies just charge at you? Weird.. Manye nemies try to avoid melee with you. Espicially archers or spellcasters. Heck, in tb games enemies charge right at you. The weakness there is in a game like TOEE a mage can cast fireball and aim it so perfectly right down to the millimetre. yeah, that's realsyic or even fun or challenging.. Not. True, NWN has an edge because it's only one controleld character but last i checked this wasn't a dbeate of single vs. party based combat but tb vs. rt or rtw pause. NWN has lots of tatics involved in it and even int he OC there are many times where if you just charged straight ahead you'd die. Heck, in TOEE most of the time I didn't need *nay* planning to be victoriuous as most battles involved absolutely retarded and on e dimensional monsters ala bugbears or other melee type or absic archers thrown in. You don't need to be that quick thinking or dexterious at all to play NWN just fine. It isn't that fast paced like an FPS due to the inherent 6 second rounds. I always micro manage in NWN as I do in tb games.

 

Mega: Sure.

Volourn> We must be playing different games, because the unwashed masses always seem to want a piece of me up close and personal

 

There's nothing wrong with aiming a fireball directly right down to a millimetre. It makes an odd sort of sense. If your character were real, accuracy and precision could possibly just the sort of things experience has honed. I don't see anything wrong with that notion, and I think it makes far more sense when there isn't a disjunct between the abilities of the real life player (you and me) and the player character. If you feel that isn't fun, then that's subjective.

 

As for NWN and single players vs. parties, they are in my opinion at the heart of the debate - one allows you the versatility of having quite a variety of methods to resolve combat while the other restricts you to the abilities of your one character - and TB allows much more of the latter than the former.

 

With regards the OC in NWN, I know you're an avowed NWN fan, but really, the OC was crap, to be brutally honest. That, again, is in my opinion. I'd like you to point out usable tactics in the OC. I'm just a bit sceptical, you see.

[pulp]

@pulp

I too, actually like the option to micromanage combat. I just don't like being forced to do it. Also, you seem to be focusing on past implementations. There's no reason why more options could not be included in a future game, while also streamlining the interface to avoid the messiness you mentioned.

Well, I think you'll take the point and agree that we can only base our discussions on past implementations, and not other hybrid - or otherwise - combat systems that we haven't actually seen yet. Or rather, seen implemented successfully. Till then I'll just reserve judgement on whether it's conceivable to have a hybrid RT/TB game.

 

I don't like being forced to micro-manage also, and that usually comes up for me when I'm up against really low level enemies (like nasty rats). Turn base then does become a chore. But I'd argue that that might be more a function of game design rather than a fault of the combat system *shrugs*.

[Iolo]

Rather than this TB versus RT debate or each new D&D game developing their new version of how the D&D rules should be applied to a real time, WotC should just come up with an official set of rules for D&D RT for CRPGs. That is what I think part of the problem is with games like NWN or BG or others, they all implemented the ruleset differently since the ruleset is designed as a turn based. It just doesn't translate as well to a real time game and each developer does it differently. Which was why I was really looking forward to TOEE because it wouldn't have these hacks or improperly written rules made ad hoc by the developers of the games because they are implementing turn based rules in a real time game. A consistent system designed for RT would be nice.

[Iolo]

I don't like being forced to micro-manage also, and that usually comes up for me when I'm up against really low level enemies (like nasty rats). Turn base then does become a chore. But I'd argue that that might be more a function of game design rather than a fault of the combat system *shrugs*.

 

Well there is always the possibility of adding an Auto Resolve function. If you know that you can beat those creatures easily, click a button and the game would automatically determine the output of combat and your parties would use default actions based on scripts or current status. I think it could work but might take some doing to get it right. Nothing would need to be shown to the player and you would just see the final results of the combat.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

There's absolutely no reason you can't have the same amount of options available in RT that you can have in TB.

 

I think you mean RTWP instead of RT up there, otherwise you're making a false statement, as RT cannot have the same amount of options as TB on its own.

 

The problem comes in being able to make use of them, hence pause. Although in some past games, RT may have been hectic, and thing may have been cut out to make the game flow better, there's no reason it has to be that way.

RT is always hectic, with or without pause. There's no way to prevent it. The ability to pause doesn't make it less hectic. When you unpause, it resumes its hectic nature.

 

How does TB have "the advantage of allowing you to see it on a more relaxed frame of observation" if you can pause the game at any time?

 

I had stated back there it allowed for it in comparison to RT, not RTWP.

 

How can you walk into a mistake in TB when you only have to decide the actions of one character at a time?

The chance of error is possible, and unstopable, in most (if not all) TB games. You can "walk into a mistake" by deficient planning, you can do a certain action which has no possible escape or cancellation, such as attacking; you can't pause to cancel actions in TB, as they're carried out automatically.

 

Other characters can ready actions and such, but it's harder to do. There's also no reason in a future game that a pause feature would mean instant cancellation. You might be able to alter the course of action part way through, but ideally, not cancel it flat-out. This kind of feature isn't really needed in TB, because nothing else is moving while it's your turn.

 

Pause does allow you to cancel it. In all RTWP systems I've seen to this day, thats what happens. By pausing, you can cancel pretty much everything you're doing. In RTWP you can pause to avoid delivering a blow, for instance; or pause and backtrack if you see a mage firing an area-effect spell such as Fireball; or having a mage start casting a spell, notice the enemy launched a protection against that spell, pause and order him to run away, effectively terminating the spell he was about to launch and allowing him to run away. Thats the "escape method", as it can let you flat-out cancel things. Prime candidate: all IE games.

 

And TB does not show what a character would be doing in real time; in real-time, everything else would be moving, and they'd have to react to that.

Yes it does. Note the difference between "happening in real time" and "showing how it would act out in real time". TB is a simulation of combat which shows in detail what is meant to happen in RT. It doesn't need to happen in RT to show how it would happen.

 

A RT with pause system both allows the player to fall into more difficulties by having everything happening at once, but has the added flexibility to reissue orders in such a situation.

 

That might be a flexibility to some, but I see it as a flaw. Running into more difficulties is useless if you have the ability to easilly escape them and the ability to easilly handle everything and everyone in your party. The lack of challenge it creates by adding pause isn't really making up for it.

[chaosprism]

Theres been a lot of people saying how they support RT (real time) over TB (turn based)

 

Turn base is unrealistic, being able to run X distance on your turn.. then another character run X distance his turn. Doing various things in their turn.

 

 

Theres no reason why a real time system couldnt get that input in a "paused" state before things actually happen. Also real time with pause games (RTWP) nearly aways have a pause at the end of the round option which allows for interaction EVERY round.

 

The secret would be to make a real time game that paused (either by user input) or various events (similar to auto-pause triggers), every so many time clicks etc then took you through all characters you control allowing you to choose what they should do now.

 

And that means drawing a movement path for them to follow..

 

Move to that spot...around that wall, turn left and cast a fireball/Throw grenade at that location...

 

The you "unpause" or run actions.. all your little guys however many you have then go follow their orders as best they can.

You can always intterupt them.. one guy might go down and need somebody to use a medikit on him... so the guy who was going to throw the grenade could then abort that and move from where he has currently got to , to the fallen comrade to apply some first aid.

 

This way you have the best of both worlds.. and you can always set 1, a subset or all of your characters to "auto" where they'd just use scripting to determine their behaviour (basically the AI the enemies would use)

 

That way you can tune the interactivity you want.. if you want cinematic combat where you basically watch and dont participate (and I have friends who want exactly that in their games) or if you want to closely control one character (and have the rest on AI) you could do that.. or if you want to control and tactically arrange all of your team you could do that also.

 

Maybe this has already been done, i'm not sure I havent played EVERY game ever made

[Volourn]

Pulp: imo, No matter how intelligent a mage character is; I just don't beleive they can be that accurate with a fireball on the fly. There is no way a mage in my pnp game could do so perfectly.

 

 

As for single character vs. multiple character; that isn't at the ehart of the matter. Wea re disccusing turn base combat vs. real time combat with pause. Sure, controlling more characters makes it more tatical; but to me it lessens the role-playing strength of the game as the 5 headed mosnter tends to lack full fledge role-playing.

 

As for the NWN OC; i discussed this old game's strnegths and weaknesses many times. I'm not gonan get into it as it's almost 2 years old and time to move on. I think you go overboard when you say the OC is "crap". I may be a fan; but I don't think the OC is"the best ever" even though others claim I do. I think it's a good agem - espciaily comapred to many others that people drool over. *cough* MW *cough*

 

As for tatical situations in the OC. there';s lots of them; I'll name a few. Any of the dragons are much easier if you plan how you'll approach and deal with them and what abilities you use. If you just walk in you are gonna die unless you are a munckin who carries every single item in existence to be 'prepared" for all battles (this is the sin of every crpg ever created with too much loot around). I personally don't carry a dozen rings or a dozen belts around as I find that plainly silly. I heard how stated they thought the dragons were easy then went on to state that they did one of the following: 1. Carried multiple items ala the three greater damage resistance belts, drank a billion healing potions, or continually used the warp stone (which I think BIo shouldn't have put in the game; but that's another story). If you do one of thsoe of course the dragon don't need tatics; otherwise you do. I found myself using as much taatics in NWN as I did in TOEE (even though TOEE does have more tatatcial options available) as they both had the tendency to just throw waves of melee monsters at you with archers and spellcaster as silly dumb back up. Most of the boss characters in NWN OC had to approcach with caution. Theres' the dire spire in the caves in ch1 that was really hard (or just plain impossible) if you just rushed in; or was pretty possible if you took your time and approcached it withc aution. There's the mage in the Blacklake district who could screw you up big time if you weren't careful (unless you were a fighter who got a lucky crit in heh). All you have to do is read the NWN OC spoilers board to read up on various ways to deal with various encounters to find out the tatatics available.

 

Enjoy. :D

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The problem with most of what you wrote is that you're trying to recreate something in RT which already exists and functions quite well in TB; effectively trying to take all the inherent elements of TB forcefully fit RT for no good reason other than would-be superior form of control and AI latency. If a person states that TB is too slow, there is the option of speed sliders for all the actions in combat; or the option to increase search pathways; or the option to increase a higher graphical rate for sprites. If a person states that TB is too passive, they have to concede that so is RTWP, given you issue orders and watch combat unfold, just like TB (with the main difference that in TB you issue orders one by one, while in RTWP you can issue orders for everyone; but its passive nonetheless). If a person states that pause is a great feature because it allows you to handle your characters in a given situation, then there's two scenarios. One, the person does not like the TB method, and is not interested in a step by step control, and prefers instant and absolute control over everything with a "universal" pause. Two, they just want the control but are not particularly interested in the time it takes. If its the later, they can look to Wizardry 8, which is phase-based, and makes it so at the beginning of each round players can assign actions to every character, and they're all carried out automatically until the end of the round, where it will start all over again. If its the former, than its their preference, but being able to pause at will isn't a concept that goes in hand with good combat given it removes the challenge (one of the primary interests of combat). The only merit it has is providing a way to dictate the pace of combat. One can argue that handling all characters in one single event determined by the universal pause is cutting downtime and is an improvement, but controlling all characters in one single turn is effectivelly the same as controlling one by one. Does it take less time with the universal pause? Yes, it does. But that doesn't make it bad; its just not up to snuff with personal attention span. I understand why people would think that guiding 8 characters in 8 individual turns is boring, but controlling those same 8 all at once several times in combat isn't much of an improvement.

[Volourn]

How can you say RT with pause is more passive than turn abse when in both it's just click on what option you want and a click on teh reature you want to do it one; and then the animated characetr does the action themsleves? weird.. They're both "passive" in that sense though I'm alwasy into it no matter the combat style. I find neitehr way boring either if the combat is made to be challenging. The masses of goblins in the OC 8was* boring. The masses of bugbears *was* boring. But, not because they were passive, RT w/pause, or tb; but because they were easy and required no real tatical edge to them.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Thats what i said, Vol, that both are passive. Where did i said it was more passive?

 

And the problem you're describing - amount of enemies - isn't a problem with the system itself. Thats bad design. The useless amount of bugbears in ToEE is as useless and boring as the amount of giant ants in the Broken Hills mine in FO2. Just as it was useless and boring the inane amount of sniverwhatever gnomes in the lair of the Drow Bhaalspawn in ToB that kept respawning.

[Volourn]

Yup. I agree. Except the *duergar* that continued to respawn there could be a challeneg so it didn';t nesseccarily became boring as you had to either kill them quickly before more came (think of it as running through a gauntlet) or having to kill more before being overrun. I thought of them as basically slaves or fodder sent to the slaughter to distract the would be interlopers (the PC party) from reaching thed row priestess. In that way, it served its purpsoe which is why it mattered more.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

All the examples i gave served their purpose. It doesn't stop them from being unecessary elements to combat situations. Wheter its an overabunance of duergar (which I thought were sniverflibin or whatever <_<) or bugbears or ants, it becomes boring and repetitive. Yet you concede that neither of those situations is representative of the game, neither is it representative of the combat system.

[Volourn]

Yes, we agree on that issue. B)

[Diogo Ribeiro]

'aight