The all things Political Topic - When the sun Rises, the shadows must retreat Fleeing in fear from the Fires of dawn

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

 

you know very well state and local government has authority to mandate mask wearing, but you don't believe they should. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Yes that sums it up

Of course its perfectly legal for the State government to kidnap someone who has committed no crime and forcibly sterilize them against their will. We were doing that here in the US even BEFORE the NAZIs did. And according to the Washington Post last year it has happened a late as 2016. It certainly happened in the 1960's & 70's. So if they can do that what can't they do?  

Edited July 19, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Yes that sums it up

Of course its perfectly legal for the State government to kidnap someone who has committed no crime and forcibly sterilize them against their will. We were doing that here in the US even BEFORE the NAZIs did. And according to the Washington Post last year it has happened a late as 2016. It certainly happened in the 1960's & 70's. So if they can do that what can't they do?  

nice late edit... and 'course you once again bring up the nazis in true volish fashion. am gonna start considering the possibility o' a dopple if this keeps up with you self contradicting and resorting to nazi comparisons. add a lolz or two and am thinking the concerns is cemented.

regardless, am gonna need be more specific with your example. as we noted earlier, you once again bumfuzzled a claim with your private land fishing complaint regarding covid. regardless, if the argument is that all government authority is tainted 'cause o' extreme exceptions, am gonna write this off as a predictable gd auto fail. 

btw, Gromnir has mentioned buck v. bell more than once on these boards. widely criticized but has never been specific overturned, but you are gonna need show the receipts.  vague accusation, particular from you, is less than convincing. you tend to grasp bits from memory and all too often get important details jumbled in the process. that said, there were indian reservation doctors doing sterilizations far too recent for anybody save proud boys and stephen miller to support. 

for the nonce, all we see here is gd doing the marjorie taylor green silliness where she compares common sense covid restrictions to nazi extremes. vol ii? mini-vol? bunker troll vol? am kinda liking the last one.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

Hold on a second here. I made no comparisons between COVID policy and eugenics or NAZI BS. I only pointed out, in agreement with what you said that the State has the power to forcibly sterilize people who have done no wrong there isn't much they can't do. Any comparisons between COVID and that exist only in your mind. 

Actually I knew about it of course, the terrible things done in the US in the name of eugenics. But I hadn't thought about that in years. But I'm currently reading this:

 

It's upsetting to say the least when you read about things your own country has done in a book about NAZIs. 

You are correct one one other thing. I do rely on memory, books I've read, and other sources of learning for a great deal of the things I post. Maybe that memory is starting to fail me more and more as the years go by. But that guy that got fined for fishing alone DID happen. Just not in Michigan and now I can't find the story. I was a little surprised to learn via Google how many people get cited for fishing without a license though. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

bunker troll vol has brought up nazis multiple times in the last few pages when criticizing the actions taken by US government and you were making such observations as you defended your criticism o' government covid actions. those observations were of course random and had nothing to do with your criticism o' US excesses of authority? serious? you were making a comparison. the comparison were noted. (edit: the earlier hitler comparison were 'bout saying anything positive re cuba. nevertheless, is a very vol tactic)

and no, the US doesn't have the authority to forcibly sterilize people as even when it were embraced by the Court, it were done so as a function o' police power, which as you well know is reserved to the states. in fact, in 2015 (2016?) the US senate voted (unanimous) to support victims of forced sterilization with government assistance.

the most recent state example? hmmm. california department of corrections was accused of sterilizing women as recent as 2010, but the Courts did not uphold such sterilizations as legal. what were being done in ca had been functional illegal since 1964 but explicit prohibited since 1979. the defense o' the corrections system weren't buck v. bell, but rather ignorance, those monsters genuine claimed they had no idea the law had changed and thought they were doing legal operations w/o the consent o' those custodial wards o' the state (i.e. women prisoners).

states might argue based on buck v. bell that such a power to sterilize exists, even though current all states now have prohibitions on such, but it is unlikely to hold up in court. is a bit like when the trump administration tried to use korematsu as support for their initial muslim ban executive orders. you are gonna need work very hard to find any lawyer or judge who disagrees with the observation buck v bell is bad law, but there just hasn't been a specific case to overrule it which has made it to SCOTUS.

HA! Good Fun!

ps (edit) https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/documentaries/belly-of-the-beast/ saw this after posting. is 'bout the forced sterilizations in ca women prisons which were happening relative recent. but again, such sterilizations were not being done with legit government authority. nevertheless, am suspecting more than a few would be shocked to learn how recent such evils has happened. have not viewed, so we cannot say anything as to quality.

pps also, there has been recent accusations o' women being sterilized while in ice facilities during obama and trump years, but again, nobody is actual arguing that if such sterilizations occurred w/o consent, they would be anything but illegal and thus not with government authority.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

It's not just Australia, Germany is feeling the change in weather patterns too...

 

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, Gorth said:

It's not just Australia, Germany is feeling the change in weather patterns too...

 

Yes, I have been following the extensive flood damage on several international news channels 

Its unprecedented in some places or at least in living memory 

[Gromnir]

john mccain would be proud. a couple months ago a military commission/judge had ruled it is ok to use evidence acquired via torture in pretrial proceedings under certain circumstances but the biden administration is refusing to use the tainted evidence. 

we had difficulty finding fault with judge acosta's decision, but we kinda felt sickened by it even so. the ruling were o' interest to only a handful o' people not intimate involved in military jurisprudence and when judge acosta delivered his opinion on 18 may 2021, we saw virtual zero coverage from mainstream media. as such there were no heat on the biden administration to do anything other than accept the judge's ruling. thought the story were over. am relived we were wrong.

the biden administration did the right thing. good on them.

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

bunker troll vol has brought up nazis multiple times in the last few pages when criticizing the actions taken by US government

 

But Gromnir you know that Volo used the word " Nazi " in a frivolous and inaccurate way. He just threw the word around and overused it so it became meaningless. 

So when he accused the US government of being Nazi it didnt matter. I have been called a fascist and racist on this forum which is the   same as any comparison to the US being a Nazi state....its not accurate and doesnt reflect the reality. I know you know this about the USA but I am raising the whole volo point 

[Amentep]

12 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

You can see people not wearing a mask and avoid the idiot. So writing people tickets, ordering private business to close, putting people on a sort of "house arrest" not cool. You give people advice. Tell them what they should do and then let them do it. Or not do it. You don't tell them "do as I say... or else". 

And those who can't avoid the idiot?  Like cashiers or bus drivers?  Or even you when the person in question is walking up behind you or coming around a corner or other area where you can't see them to avoid them?

12 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

At the same time I am 100% cool with private business enforcing masks, distancing, whatever in their business place. Don't like it? There's the door. Where you lose me is the "or else" men with guns will come and take you away. 

And if they refuse to leave, instead pulling out a binder of internet research about their "rights" to enter a private business without a mask...what are the employee's going to do?  Call the cops.  And the cops with guns will come and take the maskless person away.  Which you say is bad.  I'm sure your response is that "well at that point they're trespassing when they refuse to leave and that's okay" but they're only trespassing because they aren't following the mask mandate, which seems to be a rather fine distinction to make between okay/not okay to me...

[BruceVC]

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2021-07-19-jeff-bezos-takes-off-on-tuesday-in-his-rocket--a-new-step-for-space-tourism---france-24.Bkt4st9MAO.html

So in 24 hours Jeff Bezos will take that first exciting step as a space tourist 

Personally I am one of those people who has no interest in ever going  into space, the moon or Mars but I can understand other peoples excitement about this journey and the concept of space tourism 

Does anyone else want to go to space and what are your reasons?

[BruceVC]

39 minutes ago, Amentep said:

And those who can't avoid the idiot?  Like cashiers or bus drivers?  Or even you when the person in question is walking up behind you or coming around a corner or other area where you can't see them to avoid them?

And if they refuse to leave, instead pulling out a binder of internet research about their "rights" to enter a private business without a mask...what are the employee's going to do?  Call the cops.  And the cops with guns will come and take the maskless person away.  Which you say is bad.  I'm sure your response is that "well at that point they're trespassing when they refuse to leave and that's okay" but they're only trespassing because they aren't following the mask mandate, which seems to be a rather fine distinction to make between okay/not okay to me...

Also the Corona molecules that float in the air hang around for  a while and dont vanish or dissipate straight away 

So for example when any country is experiencing a wave if you refuse to wear a mask and sit indoor in a restaurant or bar and someone comes after you your intransigence can literally cause other people, even wearing a mask, to be exposed. So I dont see any valid argument about not wearing a mask when their is a wave or high virus load  

Edited July 19, 2021 by BruceVC

[Gfted1]

So the masks only work in one direction or nah?

If youre wearing a mask why do you care if someone else isnt? "Both wearing masks would be better"...sure I suppose...but then the concerned party can just wear two? 

Follow up question, if all people wear two masks at all times, and perhaps swimmers goggles, can we eliminate all transmissible disease? Or could it still get in your earholes?

[Amentep]

2 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

So the masks only work in one direction or nah?

If youre wearing a mask why do you care if someone else isnt? "Both wearing masks would be better"...sure I suppose...but then the concerned party can just wear two? 

Follow up question, if all people wear two masks at all times, and perhaps swimmers goggles, can we eliminate all transmissible disease? Or could it still get in your earholes?

If the science is correct, the mask's protection is to lower how far out moisture in your lungs is expelled as an aerosol when you breath with some limiting effect for bigger amounts of liquid not passing the mask.  You wearing a mask doesn't really help you as technically the infected moisture could get around the mask (most likely through the eyes).  Therefore if Person A wears a mask and Person B does not, Person B has some limiting barrier to catching COVID from Person A, but Person A does not have the same from Person B.

This is why the "if you're vaccinated you can not wear a mask" stuff is so weird, as the mask wasn't protecting you effectively, but protecting others from you and the vaccines are only ~90% effective meaning a vaccinated person could easily still be a vector for the virus.

My understanding with your follow-up question, is it depends on the method of transmission of the virus or bacteria.  I believe there are some that can bypass the natural barrier of your skin through the pores.  Not sure if any have an ear vector or not.  Theoretically if we all wore hazmat suits with independent breathing apparatus with appropriate air filtration you could theoretically I suppose eliminate most transmissible diseases from humanity; eliminating them from animal populations would be a different story, and as diseases can jump species unless humanity plans to live in their suits Quarian style...

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

And those who can't avoid the idiot?  Like cashiers or bus drivers?  Or even you when the person in question is walking up behind you or coming around a corner or other area where you can't see them to avoid them?

And if they refuse to leave, instead pulling out a binder of internet research about their "rights" to enter a private business without a mask...what are the employee's going to do?  Call the cops.  And the cops with guns will come and take the maskless person away.  Which you say is bad.  I'm sure your response is that "well at that point they're trespassing when they refuse to leave and that's okay" but they're only trespassing because they aren't following the mask mandate, which seems to be a rather fine distinction to make between okay/not okay to me...

have made these same points with gd in the past. he doesn't listen and doesn't care. his notions o' personal responsibility is all inverted and backwards. somehow, the maskless idiot you cannot always avoid is your responsibility to avoid. what recourse does the bus driver have in avoiding the maskless idiot who nevertheless wants to use public transportation... or any o' the other passengers who sudden look up from their phones and realize maskless idiot is in their midst in a confined area? gd doesn't care, 'cause presumptive, government action is excessive or somesuch. they are always out to get you and here you are inviting them into your place of business to haul away americans doing naught wrong save possible spreading a highly infectious disease.

have pointed out how 'cause o' the degrees o' separation problem, personal responsibility is impossible to divine. the maskless idiot in the store might infect a woman who nevertheless remains complete asymptomatic, and in spite o' the woman being to all outward appearances healthy and hale and responsible with social distancing, she infects a family member who also is asymptomatic... and so on and so forth. contact tracing for covid is a nightmare and if maskless idiot ends up sending somebody's grandma (with the new delta variant, all too often much younger individuals is needing medical aid to survive) to the hospital six steps removed from his store venture, is likely we will never make the connection and maskless idiot can never be held personal responsible for the damage he caused.

masks is hardly perfect and is nowhere near as effective as is genuine social distancing. masks is also an extreme minor inconvenience and the same folks who reflexive understand they gotta put on a shirt and shoes before entering most stores somehow have their liberty reflex trigger 'cause o' a mask during a pandemic. the wacky part is gd is ok with the guidelines and thinks they is reasonable, but any government enforcement o' such reasonable guidelines is abhorrent? if the maskless idiot refuses to leave a store or place o' business, we may all just abandon the venue and stay away from him until he finally decides to leave. 'cause, personal responsibility.

don't try and make sense o' it. is an ideologue thing.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

24 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

So the masks only work in one direction or nah?

If youre wearing a mask why do you care if someone else isnt? "Both wearing masks would be better"...sure I suppose...but then the concerned party can just wear two? 

Follow up question, if all people wear two masks at all times, and perhaps swimmers goggles, can we eliminate all transmissible disease? Or could it still get in your earholes?

Yes, I cant give you a complicated but accurate answer like Amentep , they work one way. They dont stop you getting exposed and contracting the virus, you need advanced PPE like we see people working  in hospitals use ...those work both ways 

So to answer your relevant question, imagine this. If you meet a friend at a bar for a drink and  your friend  ( who has the virus but doesn't know as he is asymptomatic )is not wearing his mask and  you are sitting and chatting to him he can and will expose you to the invisible Corona molecules and you can get the virus 

And the real  risk with all these variants and new stains is even if you have been vaccinated you can still get sick, its unlikely you will end up in hospital with severe symptoms but you can still get the virus especially with variants like this Delta variant that is running rampant in the USA 

And I have no idea about  goggles but I assume you joking 

Edited July 19, 2021 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

15 hours ago, Amentep said:

But...the masks weren't to stop the wearer from getting sick,  it was to prevent the wearer from making everyone else sick. So not wearing a mask in public had a much bigger responsibility on the individual beyond their mask wearer's own health.

Do you think the individuals right to not wear a mask trumps the rights of those who come involuntarily into that person's presence to not get sick?

Sadly for a lot of people "helping others" is for pussies, essentially.

[Gromnir]

Just now, Malcador said:

Sadly for a lot of people "helping others" is for pussies, essentially.

keep in mind gd would say is fine and good to help others, but for Them and They to compel you to help others is just the next small step leading to (insert third reich iconography here). the government, recognizing its inevitable and undeniable need to grab more power unto itself, is a far greater threat than any disease. yeah, they would claim that pandemic mandates are temporary and limited, but (add slippery slope/no compromise silliness here).

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

52 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Theoretically if we all wore hazmat suits with independent breathing apparatus with appropriate air filtration you could theoretically I suppose eliminate most transmissible diseases from humanity; eliminating them from animal populations would be a different story, and as diseases can jump species unless humanity plans to live in their suits Quarian style...

We should make this happen as it provides nothing but benefits: 1) We will never catch any disease or virus 2) It will remove the "burdens" on the health care systems 3) dear old gamgam wont have to worry about a potentially asymptomatic ruffian standing inside 6 feet.

The money saved that we normally waste on healthcare could now be used to give every single adult in the country UBI, UHC and UFE.

They should make me President.

[Amentep]

Just now, Gfted1 said:

We should make this happen as it provides nothing but benefits: 1) We will never catch any disease or virus 2) It will remove the "burdens" on the health care systems 3) dear old gamgam wont have to worry about a potentially asymptomatic ruffian standing inside 6 feet.

The money saved that we normally waste on healthcare could now be used to give every single adult in the country UBI, UHC and UFE.

They should make me President.

You'd have to convince people to have sex with only the uninfected to eliminate STDs (and to never again have sex with livestock, because...well that happened and STDs leapt species).  So I don't think its going to work totally, because if history teaches us anything its that people gonna have sex and they ain't going to check their medical history in the heat of the moment...

Besides some bacteria or fungus will come along and ruin the plans.  End up with something called suit rot over your body or something because, well, life finds a way.

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, Amentep said:

You'd have to convince people to have sex with only the uninfected to eliminate STDs (and to never again have sex with livestock, because...well that happened and STDs leapt species).  So I don't think its going to work totally, because if history teaches us anything its that people gonna have sex and they ain't going to check their medical history in the heat of the moment...

Besides some bacteria or fungus will come along and ruin the plans.  End up with something called suit rot over your body or something because, well, life finds a way.

Encourage people to play cRPGS.   No issues with sex then.

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, Amentep said:

You'd have to convince people to have sex with only the uninfected to eliminate STDs (and to never again have sex with livestock, because...well that happened and STDs leapt species).  So I don't think its going to work totally, because if history teaches us anything its that people gonna have sex and they ain't going to check their medical history in the heat of the moment...

Besides some bacteria or fungus will come along and ruin the plans.  End up with something called suit rot over your body or something because, well, life finds a way.

keep in mind hazmat suits alone wouldn't accomplish the desired results. you also need a separate decontamination area for getting into and outta the suits as well as proper training for how to get in and out o' suits and the correct way to decontaminate. or, you could just follow simple guidelines including but not limited to handwashing and not going to work when sick... which would prevent the vast majority o' disease spread.

all o' which ignores fact the query were never genuine and were just an excuse to indulge in predictable absurdism. real solution is to post something with math or direct to an outside source. he will repeat the same silly query a few times but just add another link or more math.

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

We should make this happen as it provides nothing but benefits: 1) We will never catch any disease or virus 2) It will remove the "burdens" on the health care systems 3) dear old gamgam wont have to worry about a potentially asymptomatic ruffian standing inside 6 feet.

The money saved that we normally waste on healthcare could now be used to give every single adult in the country UBI, UHC and UFE.

They should make me President.

Personally I dislike wearing my mask immensely , its impersonal and I find it anathema to the  fundamental gregarious nature of how human  beings are suppose to interact. We like to look at each and see each others expressions and smiles and similar things

But I wear it only because of the virus. I am waiting for the day when we achieve " herd immunity " in SA and I can go back to being able to go to the local bar and socialize

I mentioned this before, I would vote for you as president because you would implement things that make sense to me...just not UBI and other welfare state ideas 

[Gfted1]

2 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I mentioned this before, I would vote for you as president because you would implement things that make sense to me...just not UBI and other welfare state ideas 

Thank you. For you vote I will provide you a platinum VIP card to all clubs in America. But thats the beauty of my idea, it doesnt require socialism. All the monies saved from those fatcats in our medical industry could now be redirected into UBI, UHC and UFE.

People will learn to wear the suit, or get the boot.

[BruceVC]

11 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Thank you. For you vote I will provide you a platinum VIP card to all clubs in America. But thats the beauty of my idea, it doesnt require socialism. All the monies saved from those fatcats in our medical industry could now be redirected into UBI, UHC and UFE.

People will learn to wear the suit, or get the boot.

Perfect, that VIP card works for me and can we make it  for strip clubs and Vegas gentleman clubs as well 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by BruceVC

[Gorth]

45 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

We should make this happen as it provides nothing but benefits:...

If you say so Gfted1 vas Obsidian (I'm sure someone somewhere get the reference)