The all things Political Topic - When the sun Rises, the shadows must retreat Fleeing in fear from the Fires of dawn

[Guard Dog]

8 hours ago, Gromnir said:

who the hell is "they" and what makes the account "theirs"? 

you spoke of obstinacy previous, but you are offering a master class in it at the moment. just because there is a blm logo attached to a post from an account which has words corresponding with blm in the address don't make it any more "they" or "theirs" than any o' those innumerable "official" kardashian accounts. the folks who posted the statement can't get a freaking trademark for their logo precise 'cause they don't represent blm in any meaningful way, but because their statements fit your narrative o' what you expect them and they to say, you embrace obstinacy. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2315760/

The new Cuban government in 1959 began overhauling the for-profit health system which, 30 years later, resulted in free health services for all its citizens which is integrated with national social and economic development. Life expectancy in Cuba is higher than that of the US (72.5 vs. 71.9). Health workers have eliminated polio, tuberculosis, typhoid fever, and diphtheria. Malnutrition incidence amount 1-15 years olds is 0.7% compared with 5% in the US. The Cuban health system began in the 1960s as a curative system based in hospitals but shifted during the 1970s and 1980s to a primary health care system based in communities. It consists of 6 hierarchical, interlocking levels: national health institutes and hospital centers (quaternary care-super specialty), provincial hospitals (tertiary care-high specialty), municipal hospitals (secondary care-specialty), area health centers (primary or community care) serving 25,000-30,000 people, sector polyclinics serving 4000-5000 people, and minipolyclinics served by a family physician team (family physician, nurse, and social worker) covering 600-700 people. The family physician team strategy has strengthened disease surveillance and completed information about health status and characteristics of neighborhoods. Neighborhood residents determine their own health care and protection. In fact, volunteer brigades build minipolyclinics and housing for family physicians and nurses. Critics of the Cuban health care system claim that the physician-to-population ratio is too high and that it makes up too much of the gross national product (almost 15%). 

etc.

now keep in mind is an apples v. oranges situation. the annual per capita gdp o' cuba is less than $9k compared to US o' more than $65k. nevertheless, thanks to obstinacy, gd ain't even willing to concede that point, eh? if were no better than stitches kinda first aid, life expectancy wouldn't be better in cuba than the US, though admitted such were pre pandemic. in spite o' devastating sanctions and an embargo by the most powerful economic force on the planet, cuban health care, by numerous objective measures such as life expectancy and childhood malnutrition, is doing better than the US... which is not saying cuban is better than the US, but again, we are comparing vast different economic situations and the fact cuba is beating the US in numerous objective measures should be embarrassing.

dog with a bone.

HA! Good Fun!

 

ell you what, why don’t you go to South Florida and explain how awesome the Cuban health system is to the people who once lived there. Objectively speaking of course. Id imagine most will tell you politely you have no idea what you’re saying. 
 

as for BLM and their Instagram posts A great many major media outlets appear satisfied that it’s legit because they reported it all or in part. I was willing to accept the notion BLM was a “movement “ not an organization a year ago. Now, not so much. Like you yourself said they’re trying to have it both ways. This might have started out in most peoples mind as a needed protest against police brutality. A cause with a legit ax to grind. But the more we learn about the people who “founded” it, the selective manner in which their outrage is applied, and their complete lack of concern about Black Lives lost when there is no political hay to be made, the less it looks like what it portrays itself to be.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I agree, BLM is a nebulous organization that has no clear leadership structure and no one who takes responsibility for words and comments said in the public arena 

So when are we going to see someone taking responsibly because we see actions and protests on the ground but no accountability ?

I'd guess never ? As you say there's no organization and it's the same as 'gamers', pretty much.

9 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

And no, Cuba does NOT have an "objectively good" health system. I'm curious how many Cubans you personally know.

So, in this case it's a subjectively bad one ? 

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

ell you what, why don’t you go to South Florida and explain how awesome the Cuban health system is to the people who once lived there. Objectively speaking of course. Id imagine most will tell you politely you have no idea what you’re saying. 
 

as for BLM and their Instagram posts A great many major media outlets appear satisfied that it’s legit because they reported it all or in part. I was willing to accept the notion BLM was a “movement “ not an organization a year ago. Now, not so much. Like you yourself said they’re trying to have it both ways. This might have started out in most peoples mind as a needed protest against police brutality. A cause with a legit ax to grind. But the more we learn about the people who “founded” it the less it looks like what it portrays itself to be.

Their are people who support BLM and they make sense in their approach and ideas, I see them on CNN all the time

My concern is the  people who come up with all these ideas and new policies to defund and undermine police and the direct impact that has on society and the rule of law and order 

[Malcador]

10 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

ell you what, why don’t you go to South Florida and explain how awesome the Cuban health system is to the people who once lived there.

Asking him to drink from a poisoned well there.

[Guard Dog]

5 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Asking him to drink from a poisoned well there.

I see. So the opinions of people who once lived under the system on the system itself are invalid?

that’s like saying that former Confederate slaves are not credible witnesses about what slavery in the south was really like. After all, slaves had free healthcare, free housing, and free food. Everything was free except them.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

I see. So the opinions of people who once lived under the system on the system itself are invalid?

that’s like saying that former Confederate slaves are not credible witnesses about what slavery in the south was really like.

Well you're trying to tout them as 'objective'.

[Gromnir]

9 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

ell you what, why don’t you go to South Florida and explain how awesome the Cuban health system is to the people who once lived there. Objectively speaking of course. Id imagine most will tell you politely you have no idea what you’re saying. 
 

as for BLM and their Instagram posts A great many major media outlets appear satisfied that it’s legit because they reported it all or in part. I was willing to accept the notion BLM was a “movement “ not an organization a year ago. Now, not so much. Like you yourself said they’re trying to have it both ways. This might have started out in most peoples mind as a needed protest against police brutality. A cause with a legit ax to grind. But the more we learn about the people who “founded” it the less it looks like what it portrays itself to be.

oh, well, the cuban expats is your objective source? serious? ignore the statistics and rankings by WHO. brush off the obvious gdp imbalance. but yeah, is a whole bunch o' angry ex-cubans who quite understandable will never say anything positive 'bout cuba is the totality o' your response. a bang up job o' showing us how you is the one being objective.

oh, and now gd sudden defers to some kinda gestalt The Media response as the measure for truth? want us to find all the times you has criticized media for their knee-jerk responses even when they did get it right?  but again, this time, 'cause The Media as you see it agrees with your narrative, you is embracing. your obstinacy rendered transparent.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Guard Dog]

7 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

oh, well, the cuban expats is your objective source? serious? ignore the statistics and rankings by WHO. brush off the obvious gdp imbalance. but yeah, is a whole bunch o' angry ex-cubans who quite understandable will never say anything positive 'bout cuba is the totality o' your response. a bang up job o' showing us how you is the one being objective.

oh, and now gd sudden defers to some kinda gestalt The Media response as the measure for truth? want us to find all the times you has criticized media for their knee-jerk responses even when they did get it right?  but again, this time, 'cause The Media as you see it agrees with your narrative, you is embracing. your obstinacy rendered transparent.

HA! Good Fun!

 

First off I did not suggest the opinions of Cubans in South Florida were objective. I said they were credible. eyewitness accounts are seldom objective. I’ve never been to Cuba, much less lived there.  The people I know who have are all telling me the same things. and what they tell me about the Cuban healthcare system is pretty bad. I’ll summit up this way, if you need aspirin or a Band-Aid you get it. You need major surgery you will likely die waiting. Unless you know somebody in the government that can put you to the front of the line.  whether or not the data coming from Cuba is objective depends on the source. If the source is the Cuban government itself then you auto deposit it in the nearest trashcan. If it’s the WHO (as in your post) how much credibility does that organization have after the past year. It’s pretty well demonstrated they have a fetish for communist governments like to China and Cuba. And they are no strangers to fudging, ignoring, or even falsifying data.
 

Second I invoked the media’s acceptance of the BLM purely to demonstrate that the Instagram post is widely accepted to be a “statement” by BLM. Whether it was or wasn’t is exactly what we were talking about. How does a leaderless movement make a statement you wonder.? How indeed. I’m sure not everyone who supports BLM is down with their program but we’re past the point where we can deny that there is a program. And it only involves saving black lives when there’s a political goal to be achieved. I’m not invoking the media is some kind of gatekeeper of truth. They are not and never have been. Case in point the selective reporting and quoting of the Instagram post. As you yourself said it’s not a very flattering post. And the media that’s already friendly to them ignored the worst parts. No objectivity there.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Kinda weird that Cubans struggling against austerity and the police has to be turned into what some geriatric expats think about healthcare in a place they haven't been to in decades and some instagram account's posts.

[Malcador]

Odd to alloy the WHO's perceived bias to their opinion, but the people you spoke to are just purely credible.  Looking around I did get a chuckle of people criticizing Cuba's health care for being very two tier in that the rich get good care and everyone else gets terrible service, especially on an American heavy site.

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Kinda weird that Cubans struggling against austerity and the police has to be turned into what some geriatric expats think about healthcare in a place they haven't been to in decades and some instagram account's posts.

And I assume you the expert on the state of the Cuban healthcare system ?

[Guard Dog]

18 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Odd to alloy the WHO's perceived bias to their opinion, but the people you spoke to are just purely credible.  Looking around I did get a chuckle of people criticizing Cuba's health care for being very two tier in that the rich get good care and everyone else gets terrible service, especially on an American heavy site.

Let me ask you a question. If I wanted to get an idea of what life was like in central Canada would you be a good person to talk to? I find this whole notion that the people who actually lived in a country under government are somehow not qualified to describe life in that country and under that government baffling. Maybe that’s only so when it flies in the face of what the people who have never been there accept as “objective facts”

Edited July 16, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Malcador]

3 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Let me ask you a question. If I wanted to get an idea of what life was like in central Canada would you be a good person to talk to? I find this whole notion that the people who actually lived in a country under government are somehow not qualified to describe life in that country and under that government baffling. Maybe that’s only so when it flies in the face of what the people whom have never been there accept as “objective facts”

Well, going to Toronto or Vancouver would not give you the right idea that's for sure, as those people more often than not would have fled the place for a reason, therefore you're going to get a skewed view of things other than weather and the flatness.  I'm sure you can find Canadian expats that ran to the US in Florida whose assessment of Canada is going to be skewed.  

Have to consider time delay as well, I know next to nothing about life in Trinidad as not been there since the 80's and all I have is my relatives to rely on who have...uh..curious biases, heh.  

Point was not that they are not qualified, but you have to consider the risk of getting as tinted an opinion as the other side.

 

[Guard Dog]

31 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Kinda weird that Cubans struggling against austerity and the police has to be turned into what some geriatric expats think about healthcare in a place they haven't been to in decades and some instagram account's posts.

That is a fair point. Maybe the health care system has improved over the years. Of course that doesn’t change the fact that the government is still brutal, tyrannical, and has murdered many of its own citizens. But then again that last part is pretty much true of every government everywhere. 

[Guard Dog]

16 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, going to Toronto or Vancouver would not give you the right idea that's for sure, as those people more often than not would have fled the place for a reason, therefore you're going to get a skewed view of things other than weather and the flatness.  I'm sure you can find Canadian expats that ran to the US in Florida whose assessment of Canada is going to be skewed.  

Have to consider time delay as well, I know next to nothing about life in Trinidad as not been there since the 80's and all I have is my relatives to rely on who have...uh..curious biases, heh.  

Point was not that they are not qualified, but you have to consider the risk of getting as tinted an opinion as the other side.

 

LOL I knew a few Canadian snow birds back when I lived in SFL. Nice folks and they loved to bend your ear on how great Canada was. Except the winter

[Malcador]

Ah, the snowbirds aren't expats.  Just pansies that can't handle winter   

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

First off I did not suggest the opinions of Cubans in South Florida were objective. I said they were credible. eyewitness accounts are seldom objective. I’ve never been to Cuba, much less lived there.  The people I know who have are all telling me the same things. and what they tell me about the Cuban healthcare system is pretty bad. I’ll summit up this way, if you need aspirin or a Band-Aid you get it. You need major surgery you will likely die waiting. Unless you know somebody in the government that can put you to the front of the line.  whether or not the data coming from Cuba is objective depends on the source. If the source is the Cuban government itself then you auto deposit it in the nearest trashcan. If it’s the WHO (as in your post) how much credibility does that organization have after the past year. It’s pretty well demonstrated they have a fetish for communist governments like to China and Cuba. And they are no strangers to fudging, ignoring, or even falsifying data.
 

Second I invoked the media’s acceptance of the BLM purely to demonstrate that the Instagram post is widely accepted to be a “statement” by BLM.  How does a leaderless movement make a statement you wonder.? How indeed. I’m sure not everyone who supports BLM is down with their program but we’re past the point where we can deny that there is a program. And it only involves saving black lives when there’s a political goal to be achieved. I’m not invoking the media is some kind of gatekeeper of truth. They are not and never have been. Case in point the selective reporting and quoting of the Instagram post. As you yourself said it’s not a very flattering post. And the media that’s already friendly to them ignored the worst parts. No objectivity there.

you didn't claim the south florida cubans were objective? *chuckle* you moan 'bout objective and then offer offer anecdotes from south florida cubans and your ex wife?

clear we missed the meme, yes?

so, conspiracy theories 'bout WHO and personal anecdotes is your response. let us know when you get to the objective, eh? 

please recall we stated we disagreed 'bout the majority o' the statement released, but you is dog with a bone and fight to the death gonna argue cuban health care based on personal anecdotes from your ex wife and cuban ex pats, while moaning 'bout objectivity? want us to dig up stories from The Media suggesting cuban health care is excellent, particular given fact they got a per capita gdp 1/6th that o' the US? how convincing will those The Media stories be, eh?

this must be a gd joke post we just ain't getting, yes?  you is doing a subversion thing, yes? is performance art or a meme w/o sharing the funny? wouldn't be first time you claimed such, so am never certain. who numbers. unicef numbers (which admitted mostly come from who sources) is all wrong but you offer unverifiable anecdotal as a response while complaining 'bout objective?

so where is your objective proof that the who numbers is wrong? where is your objective?

*sigh*

as to blm, what should be obvious is that a bunch o' folks running a website making a statement is far easier than an international movement with no leadership hierarchy attempting such a feat. such should be obvious even to gd's conspiracy fogged brain. is ez to get a handful o' people who run a website/pac to cobble together a statement in a day or two. get a worldwide movement to agree to a statement on cuba or climate change or which fast food restaurant offers the best chicken sandwich is gonna be difficult.

btw, we offered links from The Media which shows how blm is purposeful decentralized and is not having any genuine capacity to speak for the entirety o' the movement. ignored.

oh, and speaking o' the media, even the national review cautions against what gd reflexive indulged. nevertheless, 'cause The Media agreed with his embraced narrative for blm, gd glomped onto such with his usual vigor. how many times have we been down this road, eh?

we will note silence from other blm organizations pushing back on the already released blm statement regarding cuba is the smart move. it does not in any way help blm as a whole if each chapter is public arguing every time a statement gets released. from a national outreach pov, this cuba thing is not a big deal and is doubtful anybody wants to die fighting on this hill. undermine your own legitimacy over what is a tangential issue for the movement would be stoopid. 'course stoopid is often the more predictable outcome, so silence is surprising but welcome even so.

for chrissakes, a few posts removed you even brought hitler into the mix.  welcome back vol. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps speaking o' chicken sandwiches, we were surprised to discover burger king offered an excellent chicken sandwich. genuine shocked. a friend told us the spicy version o' the bk new chicken sandwich were at least as good as the offering from popeye's so many raved 'bout a couple years past. honest, we never had the popeye's sandwich, so we got nothing to compare, but we did try the bk version some time in late may and it was tasty. the sauce were kinda a tangy mayo with a bit o' sweet which added little to the experience 'cause it were so uneven distributed, but the pickle slices were crisp, robust and flavorful and the chicken were tender and juicy with excellent breading which were not excessive. am not gonna wax rhapsodic 'bout the bun, but we had no complaints. 

rare do we indulge in fast food, but the bk chicken offering were enjoyable. 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Gromnir

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Burger King having good food is the most unbelievable claim in this thread.

[Gromnir]

49 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Burger King having good food is the most unbelievable claim in this thread.

no argument from us on that point. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps so is clear, am not dismissing the opinions o' cuban ex-pats. am thinking those who left cuba likely did so for reasons which were substantial and meaningful and we listen to such. the stories o' cubans fleeing/fled cuba is well documented and is one o' the reasons we tend to roll our eyes whenever northern progressives pretend as if the cuban government and people is victims first and foremost o' US oppression. *groan* nevertheless, if one is gonna complain 'bout objectivity, the anecdotes o' people who fled from a regime can't be your only source, or even your primary source, when trying to discover truth 'bout conditions in cuba, particular conditions in cuba today. those most aggrieved is a legit source, and their stories is demanding an audience, but such folks obvious got a skewed (if well deserved) pov. dismiss any objective measures o' healthcare as fatal and irredeemable unreliable while simultaneous only proffering anecdotal from the aggrieved should raise questions o' legitimacy... but curious does not.

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Gromnir

[Sarex]

2 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Burger King having good food is the most unbelievable claim in this thread.

Never again...

[Gromnir]

laugh if you will, but the kraken lawyers weren't offering better in arizona, georgia, nevada, wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania.

aside: for those curious, brady holds that the state must provide the defense with exculpatory evidence in their possession. in other words, if the state has evidence which shows you are innocent, they got an affirmative duty to provide such to you and your defense. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps am gonna indulge full @Guard Dog conspiracy silliness and point out that the dress sidney powell is wearing in the linked article is no doubt an oblique nod to the watchmen 7th kavalry.

am not serious btw.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2021-07-16-this-attempted-insurrection-has-failed-president-cyril-ramaphosa/

The looting and violent protests are slowing down in SA and now we are looking at the damage and the enormous task of rebuilding and what to start on

Our president gave a speech last night in the link, I like our president and support and vote for ANC. Often he gets unfairly criticized or blamed for problems that the previous jailed  president, Jacob Zuma, is responsible for. I dont always agree with the speeches his speech writers create but sometimes you have to be diplomatic and frame things in a certain way if you the president of any country so I understand this 

But here is an example, in the speech last night he said 

"It is clear now that the events of the last week were nothing but a deliberate, well planned and coordinated attack on our democracy,” President Cyril Ramaphosa told South Africans on Friday night, following a week of looting and violence that left the country reeling.

The instigators of the unrest, Ramaphosa said, had intended to “cripple the economy”, “severely weaken or even dislodge the democratic state”, and “provoke a popular insurrection”.

The instigators he mentions have always been around on Social Media and are members of some political parties  and its well known that they push rhetoric and conspiracy theories as a reason for inequality and criminal behavior like associating companies, the legal system and the media as being controlled by " white, monopoly capital  " 

But this violence was caused by  the last 10-12 years of an increase of violent protests and the state not acting effectively to arrest the small number of people involved in acts of criminality. We support peaceful protests in SA as its Constitutionally mandated 

But because their use to be a  culture inculcated in some of  the protestors that " burning of shops and looting " is okay and the police dont act this emboldened the current criminal element in these latest protests

So I disagree with government that this was well a organized attack or an attempt to destroy the Democratic system. It was mostly criminal behavior and opportunism and it spread through spontaneous violence because the looters believed they wouldn't be arrested and their would be no consequence  by our security forces 

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/biden-platforms-facebook-killing-people-203405433.html

The Biden administration, and Biden specifically, is officially blaming FB for the spread of misinformation around the virus and vaccine hesitancy. I think this is misplaced as SM is merely a platform and their is a difference between hate speech on SM, which should be banned, and people not bothering to think for themselves or denying the reality of the pandemic in the USA

So I see this as an infringement on freedom of speech and platforms like FB shouldnt be accused of " killing people " ....its ignorance that is killing people and the fact that  people who  deny the efficacy of vaccines have created their own  understandings of things like science. You cant really help them see the truth and sadly  they need to accept the consequences of their own decisions and actions.  But the virus will continue to spread and claim lives in these communities and states with a low vaccine acceptance rate 

Edited July 17, 2021 by BruceVC

[rjshae]

Facebook doesn't kill people. Morons posting to Facebook kill people. 

[Gromnir]

31 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

stuff

biden saying mean things 'bout facebook don't count as a first amendment violation, and suggesting the proliferation o' misinformation regarding the vaccine on social media platforms is contributing to the deaths of americans is hardly a controversial position at this stage. 

whatever.

is amusing, but the only reason why facebook can play the role o' pontius pilate and claim it has no responsibility for that which is published using their resources is 'cause o' Congress and not the first amendment. Congress could, if it so desired, remove the immunity from litigation facebook enjoys regarding material third parties publish using their  platform and doing so would not violate the first amendment. however, that act by Congress would most certain severe undermine the free exchange o' ideas via the internet. 

biden is pointing out the obvious and letting facebook and other maintainers o' internet platforms decide what to do 'bout it. is not a free speech issue. is a balancing quandary for facebook and others, but is not freedom o' speech from any legal sense. how much liberty to post dangerous mistruths is ok? ain't the government deciding but facebook, so is no government censorship issue. is a question o' responsibility and facebook is clear motivated by mercenary concerns as 'posed to the well being o' the american people... which doesn't necessarily make their relative hands off policy wrong. facebook has not attracted new users for a few years and as such they is desperate to keep their current pigeons fat and satisfied. increase moderation and their birds will fly away to other venues. refusal to moderate more aggressive is based on facebook's bottom line as 'posed to some kinda sense o' civic duty, but so what? Congress were not wrong when they first granted groups such as facebook immunity from civil suits. increase the responsibility o' folks such as facebook (or obsidian maintain this message board) means the free flow o' ideas would be diminished to some uncertain but no doubt significant degree.

regardless, biden saying mean and true things 'bout facebook is not a free speech issue.

HA! Good Fun!

ps as we has said in the past, all liberties has a body count, whether you wanna admit it or not.