Beguiler melee MC

[Manu22]

Hi everyone. I’ve been reading lots of topics here, and want to make a Beguiler solo run, but I don’t know what class should I multi.

This is my ideas: Tactician, Trickster, Assassin (this is where I have more doubt, because I don’t wanna just hit an run) and Steel Garrote (The auto heal looks a good idea). 
Can you help me decide? Thanks, and have a nice day

[dgray62]

You have the greatest thematic synergy with a beguiler/trickster, since both are connected in the game with Wael. Mindstalkers are also fun in general. As for an assassin MC, I prefer the assassin/soul blade combination, since soul annihilation from invisibility (with backstab) hits like a truck. Beguiler/steel garrote has nice synergy since both profit from hitting afflicted foes, and have many ways of dealing afflictions. Any of those three combos are fun to play IMO.

[Boeroer]

For solo I'd suggest Tactician and Steel Garrote from your list. Steel Garrote would be my preference.

The rest is cool in a party but not as reliable in a solo run (if you don't like to use Smoke Veil) imo.

[Manu22]

On 7/11/2021 at 9:47 AM, Boeroer said:

For solo I'd suggest Tactician and Steel Garrote from your list. Steel Garrote would be my preference.

The rest is cool in a party but not as reliable in a solo run (if you don't like to use Smoke Veil) imo.

Any ideas of how I can make it work? I tried max STR to increase the damage, but still too low. I don’t know if I have to go dual wield, two handed, shield…

Another question,is Soulblade/Bloodmage a real bad combination?

[Boeroer]

When going solo damage output shouldn't be your primary concern - rather staying alive. Which means avoiding damage - and if you get damaged to be able to heal it. Steel Garrote imo has the best tools for that because of the good defensive passives, the strong self heal of Lay on Hands, substituted with the life drain when hitting afflicted enemies and the great armor passives. Beguiler has lots of tools for crowd control and disabling/debuffing which also avoids incoming damage. Replenishable resources are important, too. Luckily the Beguiler has two ways of getting focus: damaging enemies with weapons and - much more potent - casting Deception spells onto enemies. Paladin's Zeal is limited but you can get some back via killing foes and you don't need that much Zeal anyway (it's mostly the passives and the healing that make the Paladin a good choice).

I personally would stick to a medium shield I guess because the modal is pretty good but doesn't slow down your casting (only weapon attacks). 

Why would Soulblade/Bloodmage be a really bad combination? I mean I don't see very convincing synergies for soloing and it lacks reliable healing - but I wouldn't say really bad. Borrowed Instincts stacks with the Wizard's deflection buffs which is cool, Spirit Lance is good for focus gain and works well with Soul Annihilation... And later Wall of Draining is just great for all self buffs you can imagine (including the max focus buff the Soul Blade gets after each kill). 

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Boeroer

[Manu22]

3 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

When going solo damage output shouldn't be your primary concern - rather staying alive. Which means avoiding damage - and if you get damaged to be able to heal it. Steel Garrote imo has the best tools for that because of the good defensive passives, the strong self heal of Lay on Hands, substituted with the life drain when hitting afflicted enemies and the great armor passives. Beguiler has lots of tools for crowd control and diabling/debuffing which also avoids incoming damage. Replenishable resources are important, too. Luckily the Beguiler has two ways of getting focus: damaging enemies with weapons and - much more potent - casting Deception spells onto enemies. Paladin's Zeal is limited but you can get some back via killing foes and you don't need that much Zeal anyway (it's mostly the passives and the healing that make the Paladin a good choice).

I personally would stick to a medium shield I guess because the modal is pretty good but doesn't slow down your casting (only weapon attacks). 

Why would Soulblade/Bloodmage be a really bad combination? I mean I don't see very convincing synergies for soloing and it lacks reliable healing - but I wouldn't say really bad. Borrowed Instincts stacks with the Wizard's deflection buffs which is cool, Spirit Lance is good for focus gain and works well with Soul Annihilation... And later Wall of Draining is just great for all self buffs you can imagine (including the max focus buff the Soul Blade gets after each kill). 

 

Thanks again for the reply, I will run some more testing. 

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

And later Wall of Draining is just great for all self buffs you can imagine (including the max focus buff the Soul Blade gets after each kill). 

Just a couple additional comments in case the OP doesn't know:

WoD is outstanding but unfortunately you can't use it to prolong Cipher "borrowed" buff spells like Borrowed Instinct, since their duration is based on the negative effect on the enemy.

Cipher MC is definitely viable and fun for Solo in many combinations but keep in mind that all Cipher spells keyworded as "Echo" require an ally. Most notably you can't use Ancestor's Memory on yourself unless you mod your game.

[Manu22]

Now I don’t know if I go with the Inquisitor or try the BM/SB. I finished the digsite with them both and the two was fun to play. The mage is more dynamic, but I am concerned about sustain in later levels. 
@Not So Clever Hound I am following some of your guide about BM, trying adapt to combine with the Soulblade. I am using Quarterstaff with modal in one set and sword and shield in another.
 

@BoeroerI am using rapier with modal +shield in one set, and sword+dagger with modal in another. Increased my survivability, and the auto healing is working.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Manu22

[Not So Clever Hound]

On 7/14/2021 at 1:29 AM, Manu22 said:

I am concerned about sustain in later levels.

I haven't played it but I think that with the right strategies SB/BM could handle the game solo in higher difficulties. High level fighting would include a lot of Buff +WoD, Debuff/Deception to soften ennemies and CC, Citzal Spirit Lance + Soul Annihilation to deal lots of damage...

The Blood Mage half gives you so many tools to play with. It's true that you don't have a lot of healing so in some big fights you will have to use Potion of the Final Stand + WoD, but that's OK!

[Boeroer]

Wall of Draining changes the comparison considerably since it works with all benefical effects (that are attached to your character, not the enemy), including effects from consumables and items. Check out Stuff like Cape of Magnificient Escape. Its Escape-like ability gives you a very short +50 deflection buff, but with WoD it can get prolonged a LOT and since it's from an item it stacks with spells like Mirrored Images and Arcane Veil etc. (it doesn't stack with Escape itself - I guess because it's considered to be the same thing). Same with Mask of the Weyc's Arcane-Veil-like ability and so on.

I personally don't use it too much because it feels a bit like god mode and takes away fun for me personally. But no doubt: it's a gamechanger. Of course - as was already said iirc -  an Ascendant would profit a lot more from WoD than a Beguiler does. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

Cipher/Wizard is BY FAR the best mc for a cipher and soul blade would be the best cipher sub for sure.

One of the most glorious spells for cipher/wizard is Pull of Eora.

Succ in the enemies to reliably hit all your Aoes.

Now do it with Soul Blade, Citzals Spirit Lance and Soul Annihilation.

[Manu22]

Thanks for all the replies.

I am enjoying the BM/SB,  I am still learning how to use it effectively. The only thing that I’m not sure is that 10 STR (followed the @Not So Clever HoundBM guide) sometimes takes an eternity to kill some enemies… 

[Not So Clever Hound]

5 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Ascendant would profit a lot more from WoD than a Beguiler does. 

I think @Manu22 is looking at Blood Mage / Soul Blade. Though of course WoD is outstanding for an Ascendant.

 

5 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Check out Stuff like Cape of Magnificient Escape.

Among other items I would also add Duskfall (Drawing Parry) and Furrante's Breastplate (First to the Fight) which together net you a +25 Deflection and +10 All other defenses that stack with everything.

45 minutes ago, Raven Darkholme said:

Now do it with Soul Blade, Citzals Spirit Lance and Soul Annihilation.

Do Hammering Thoughts and Biting Whip synergize with the Spirit Lance? I would test to answer my question but I can't fire up the game.

31 minutes ago, Manu22 said:

The only thing that I’m not sure is that 10 STR (followed the @Not So Clever HoundBM guide) sometimes takes an eternity to kill some enemies… 

I know it's counter-intuitive, but with this kind of build STR is not going to make or break your offensive potential either way... in the beginning, your ability to cast Combusting Wounds + Pulsing/Ticking AoE spells several times will help a lot. Late game, I only assume that Spirit Lance + Soul Annihilation is brutal no matter your STR. Depending on the difficulty you're playing on, PEN also significantly impacts your DMG but you can work around that as a BM/SB. Finally maybe you've run into ridiculously tanky enemies? Some of those health pools are just ridiculous on PotD, thinking about certain Vessels, Beasts, Wilders...

Edited July 15, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Raven Darkholme]

1 hour ago, Manu22 said:

Thanks for all the replies.

I am enjoying the BM/SB,  I am still learning how to use it effectively. The only thing that I’m not sure is that 10 STR (followed the @Not So Clever HoundBM guide) sometimes takes an eternity to kill some enemies… 

Using a battle Axe with bleeding cut is the answer to almost any damage problem and ofc Soul Annihilation.

 

1 hour ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

 

Do Hammering Thoughts and Biting Whip synergize with the Spirit Lance? I would test to answer my question but I can't fire up the game.

 

 

It profits from them, not too sure what kind of synergy you're looking for?

[Manu22]

4 hours ago, Raven Darkholme said:

Using a battle Axe with bleeding cut is the answer to almost any damage problem and ofc Soul Annihilation.

 

 

It profits from them, not too sure what kind of synergy you're looking for?

I am using quarterstaff, because of the deflection modal, and I think that two handed is better for SA, am I right?

[dgray62]

6 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Do Hammering Thoughts and Biting Whip synergize with the Spirit Lance? I would test to answer my question but I can't fire up the game.

Yes. Both work with all weapons, including summoned weapons. Citzal's lance with the extra PEN and raw lash (if you're using Community Patch) is fantastic. Until you reach level 13 you can use Whispers of the Endless paths, which is a great for soul blades in general, but with Offensive Parry and your high defenses, you'll generate focus when enemies attack and miss you while casting spells or powers. Or you can cast Concelhaut's Draining Touch with the grimoire switching trick. It hits like a truck, heals you and weakens your enemy, and also targets will, which is really easy to lower with spells and powers.

Edited July 15, 2021 by dgray62
Additional information

[Boeroer]

Deflection modal of quarterstaff doesn't stack with the Wizard's deflection buffs, does it?

[Raven Darkholme]

11 hours ago, Manu22 said:

I am using quarterstaff, because of the deflection modal, and I think that two handed is better for SA, am I right?

I wouldn't say two handed is better for SA in any way or form, first of all you are attacking slower with two-hand while getting more focus per hit but the overally focus gain is very similar.

But you also gotta consider your gameplan is not just about SA, but killing the enemy fast, if you're killing too slow you obviously have a problem.

Bleeding Cut massively speeds up your kills, it has a dot effect that does raw damage just like SA.

There is also a 2 handed Battle Axe for Sale in Dunnage if you're really keen on 2h.

As @Boeroer pointed out modals don't stack with actives in this game and wizard has a lot of deflection active buffs, so quarterstaff is pretty much your least ideal weapon choice.

 

edit: one thing I forgot to mention:

In this game your PEN has much more impact on your dmg per hit than your base weapon damage, your damage can get a penalty up to 75% if you underpen.

The only  answers to this are either constantly switching weapons to match enemy AR (not really recommended), constantly critting to ensure you get +50% pen (also not really practical) or using smth like bleeding cut with raw damage or as @dgray62 mentioned draining touch with grimoire switch trick (does only work if you did NOT learn the spell) just because its base damage is so insane and it does a less commonly resisted damage type.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Raven Darkholme

[Boeroer]

I wouldn't say switching weapons to match enemies' AR isn't recommended. In fact I would def. recommend it. 

Bleeding Cuts is great against certain enemies but against the common mob it's counterproductive because the damage needed to kill a rel. weak enemy is applied faster without the modal AND you'll get more focus from the overall dmg you applied (because the dmg of Bleeding Cuts doesn't generate focus). Against slash resistent enemies I'd argue it's nearly always better to switch to a dmg type you can fully penetrate with instead of insisting to use Battle Axes' underpenetrating slash dmg + Bleeding Cuts. Because the raw dmg Bleeding Cuts does is based on the slash dmg you did and that can be pathetic when severely underpenetrating.

What I said there is with the assumption that you don't use recovery-skipping effects and prolong them indefinitely with certain item effects (see Strad of Favor trick). 

Instead of switching dmg types (e.g. from quarterstaff to pike or whatever) you can also try to stack PEN and/or use weapons with two dmg types. This avoids switching in many cases. But dual dmg weapons usually have lower base PEN so it's not a no-brainer. Some weapon types who normally only have single dmg and decent base PEN have uniques who have dual dmg types. I found that the Morning Star is one of the weapon types which have a great mix of PEN and dual dmg. Also the modal can be very helpful for certain spells (e.g. Disintegrate, Killing Bolt and whatever targets fortitude). Willbreaker + Make them Flinch + Gauntlets of Greater Reliability is one of my current go-to setups because it lets you apply the modal to anybody eventually (miss-to-graze conversion), it has good PEN, crush/pierce dmg AND also lowers Will on hit which is kind of cool for a Wizard/Cipher. But I wouldn't advocate for making this your one and only weapon choice - at least not for a solo run...

Soul Annihilation is great - but if you miss all your focus will be gone for nothing. So if you want to make SA you main source of melee dmg you should make sure you don't miss. There's one-handed weapons with  high accuracy (e.g. Rapier + modal, esp. Rännig's Wrath or Kapana Taga with some enemies engaged or whatever). If you use them with nothing in the offhand it's a lot harder to screw up Soul Annihilation. At least in the early game where I find misses are very common and are very frustrating.

Another way can be to use the modal of the small shield. You can switch it on for a shirt while to get the +15 ACC for your next attack (also works if you evade a melee attack by stepping to the side if not engaged) and then use that +15 ACC for Soul Annihilation. You can of course combine stuff like an accurate weapon with the small shield modal.

This is only for the early game imo - or if you meet foes which are really hard to hit. Later on you have several sources of ACC buffs so often you can just use whatever (I mean if we talk about not missing Soul Annihilation).

One exception is Sun & Moon - this is so good with Soul Annihilation that it's a viable weapon for the whole game imo. You get two chances to not miss SA - and if the first flail head hits, then the second one will generate focus already which is great, too. 

Citzal's Spirit Lance is pretty cool with Soul Annihilation because the AoE of the Lance applies different portions of raw damage to all enemies. The initial target gets the normal raw dmg of SA and then there's some internal workings at play that give different amounts of raw dmg to the enemies in the AoE. I suspect that those hits generate focus which will get dumped into raw dmg immediately (but you can't see that). 

Draining Touch is very good on a Wiz/Ciph because not only has it very high base dmg and does corrode dmg - it also targets Will instead of deflection. A Wizard/Cipher has so many tools to lower Will in enemies. 

For example you can use Kapana Taga in the offhand + modal and Draining Touch in the main hand. Modal lowers enemies' Will by 25. Miasma lowers enemies Will by another -40 (!) and then drop Secret Horrors and Ringleader... what isn't charmed will get annihilated by your (and your Phantom's) Draining Touch (+SA if you want). And even the charmed/dominated ones you can kill quickly. 

An insanely good weapon against all forms of vessels is Grave Calling. It can create a foe-only Chillfog that counts as weapon attack. That means the Chillfog will generate focus for you (fuel for Soul Annihilation all the time). It also has an enchantment that applies paralyze+ to an enemy if the sabre has done some hits. This also works with the Chillfog! So the Chillfog will generate focus for you AND freeze enemies in place as well. And the best part is that if a vessel is killed by the Chillfog it counts as weapon kill so that will proc another Chillfog. It can snowball into a cascade of death for all vessels on the screen (which are not immune to freeze dmg).

Never forget your Phantom which carries the same items as you. Citzal's Spirit Lance * 2 is cool. With the example above (Kapana Taga + Draining Touch) you can also let your Phantom engage enemies (Kapana Taga can give +2 engagement, if you wear Reckless Brigandine it can get another engagement etc.). You can send it in to "tank" some enemies and then drop some terrify effect on them once the Phantom has engaged 2 or 3. They will disengage eventually and get hit by the Phantom's truck-like disengagement attacks. Not bad for a summon I think. You can also give it very protective gear and really use it for taking aggro for you for a long time - or even give it "suicide" gear so you can send it to enemies while you are invisible/stealthed/away - and when it dies it will explode with several AoE bursts (for items see Great Swords Effort, Mantle of the Seven Bolts or Cape of the Falling Star, Effigy's Husky...). This can be very helpful to thin out groups of enemies before you feel confident enough to face them head-on. It can also be useful to let that happen while you two are in the thick of it all since those AoEs are foe-only. There's the Shroud of Phantasm (cape) that summons 6 copies of you which have very low health. If you are in a pinch you can have 6 death explosions that might kill enemies around you and save you). Those copies also can cast all your spells (unlike Essential Phantom).

Also - even as a Soulblade - never forget Mind Control. Stuff like Ring Leader is impacting the outcome of an encounter so much. It's like summoning a bunch of creatures who fight for you while taking out the same number of enemies. I can't emphasize enough how powerful that is. Combine with Phantom and you'll have a small temporary army fighting for you. Also here stuff like Miasma and club+modal can help a lot. Especially when using Brilliant Departure first and cast Mind Control on a bunch of enemies in calm. Then finish of the non-controlled with melee + SA or whatever.

Tl;dr Wiz/Cipher is an incredibly versatile class combo.

I personally would prefer Psion or Beguiler for solo (using Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure to stay hidden and cast CC like there's no tomorrow while my Phantom does the DMG) but that would be a totally different playstyle than what you are looking for I guess. 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Boeroer

[Manu22]

 Thanks guys for all the help

@BoeroerI am considering switch for a Beguiler, I think is more fun all the controls and debuff stuff than the SA dmg.

 But how can I stay hidden if the cast breaks the stealth??

Edited July 16, 2021 by Manu22

[Boeroer]

Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure (unique grimoire required) uses an invisibility that only breaks when you deal any sort of damage*. Thus you can cast all the CC and debuffs you want: if they don't deal damage they won't lift the invisibility of A's Brilliant Departure.

Like all other beneficial effects that are attached to your character the invisibility itself can be prolonged with Wall of Draining. Watch out: Bloddmage's Blood Sacrifice deals damage to you and it will lift the invisibility! So you have to time it right if you want to regain spell uses with Blood Sacrifice. For example when most enemies are controlled or after you broke the invisibility anyways (e.g. with Concelhauts Corrosive Siphon to heal up or Amplified Wave or whatever). 

A's Brilliant Departure can buy you a lot of time to cast (and gain focus from those casts as Beguiler), run from sight, reposition yourself and so on. 

Other sources of invisibility that you can prolong with Wall of Draining could be potion of invisibility or the invisibility from Slippers of the Assassin. They break on any attack roll you do - but not from damage over time ticks like Disintegrate or Bleeding Cuts. Because those don't do attack rolls anymore once they got applied. Pulsing spells (Chillfog, Malignant Cloud etc.) are not "DoT" (damage over time). They will roll a new attack with every pulse which will lift those invisibility effects from potion or slippers. 

 

 

*Wall spells excluded, they will not break the invisibility even if they deal damage.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I wouldn't say switching weapons to match enemies' AR isn't recommended. In fact I would def. recommend it. 

Bleeding Cuts is great against certain enemies but against the common mob it's counterproductive because the damage needed to kill a rel. weak enemy is applied faster without the modal AND you'll get more focus from the overall dmg you applied (because the dmg of Bleeding Cuts doesn't generate focus). Against slash resistent enemies I'd argue it's nearly always better to switch to a dmg type you can fully penetrate with instead of insisting to use Battle Axes' underpenetrating slash dmg + Bleeding Cuts. Because the raw dmg Bleeding Cuts does is based on the slash dmg you did and that can be pathetic when severely underpenetrating.

What I said there is with the assumption that you don't use recovery-skipping effects and prolong them indefinitely with certain item effects (see Strad of Favor trick). 

 

 

I don't really agree.

Even without SoF you can reduce your recovery enough to make bleeding cut worth on ANY enemy type except slash immune ones ofc but thats one single ooze type thats super rare as far as I remember.

Underpenning is not as bad as you might think with bleeding cut, because this game has a "minimum" damage of 1 and bleeding cut stacks for 70 seconds, which is quite insane.

(in most cases you will never see one damage per tick, battle axe base damage is not THAT pathetic. :P)

 

edit: also if you are wizard with WoD it's kinda counterintutitive not to use WoD to prolong scordeo's blade cascade, just put battle axe in main hand and scordeo's in offhand.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Raven Darkholme

[Manu22]

thanks for all explanations guys, is helping me a lot

Edited July 17, 2021 by Manu22

[freddfranca]

@Boeroertalking about melee cipher, how would you build a witch?I don’t want a Soulblade, so I think that the better would be berserker/ascendant?

[Boeroer]

I personally like Furyshaper/Beguiler a lot. 

Berserker/Ascendant is also cool once you get rid of confusion. While ascended you can make good use of Action speed buffs (Frenzy, Bloodlust) and Blood Thirst to squeeze a lot of spells into the ascended phase - with +3 PEN (cipher passive + Tenacious). 

Speaking about witches: I never tried - does anybody know if Static Thunder from Lord Darryn's Voulge generates focus?