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Hey gang,

After another break from Deadfire (you all keep pulling me back in) I've decided to try out builds and playstyles I haven't touched yet. For my next run, this means playing as a Spellblade, Rogue subclassed as Assassin or Debonair, and a weapon that's not mortars or Citzal's Spirit Lance. I've never used Nannasin's Cobra Strike, either, so why not mix the spaghetti into the ice cream? I have a few hangups and considerations with this plan, so I'd appreciate any feedback or help streamlining it.

(I'm playing on a modded difficulty: PoTD spawns and pure upscaling through DeadlyDeadfire with Veteran bonuses to enemies. Also running the Community Patch and Deadfire Polishing (Toxic Strike costs 2 Guile and Smoke Veil 1; Keywords are better distributed).)

The basic idea is to have the character sneak behind enemy lines when applicable, buff up during in-combat stealth (IwVE, DAoM, Spirit Shield, Nannasin's), summon a twin snake (Essential Phantom), and lay down Rogue DoTs (Deep Wounds, Gouging Strike, Toxic Strike, Cobra Strike) on enemy casters and gunners - maybe toss in a couple Wizard niceties (Tattered Veils, Miasma, Expose Vulnerabilities, Combusting Wounds, and such) as the situation demands.

I'm set on generic Wizard (burnt out on Blood Mage and I'd like to Empower a Toxic Strike here and there) but I'm torn on the Rogue subclass. I find generic Rogue boring and I've used Streetfigher and Trickster to death at this point so that leaves Debonaire and Assassin.

Debonaire has an aesthetic and RP quality I'd like for the character (a duplicitous court mage or puckish hedge wizard; playing a Deceptive, Clever, high-Bluff "snake charmer" sounds fun), and I like the idea of using Essential Phantom to negate Cowardice: as if the character is uncomfortable when away from their image. I'd have to rely on a Cipher or Chanter for Charms for better action economy (not a huge deal since I nearly always have a Beguiler or Herald in the party). Losing engagement seems irrelevant since Nannasin is a quasi-reach weapon and this character shouldn't stick to one target for very long. It's gimmicky (and backwards), but Toxic/Gouging Strike followed by Roguish Charm to control an empowered minion with an expiration date seems fun. This one is busy, and as thelee said in their mega gamefaqs guide, Debonaire is a "win more" option; it's easy to see that conceptually.

However, my gut is telling me Assassin would be a better choice mechanically. Like Debonaire, I'm kinda iffy on how this will play with action economy considering Nannasin's is a slow weapon and might be clunky to use with Smoke Veil or Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure: in that vein, I'm also concerned about maintaining Guile. The sneaky bonuses seem more in line with combat, but not that spicy "Oh! Ho Ho Ho!" RP.

For starting stuff, I think I'd go:

Race
Likely Human or Wood Elf. Suppose Death Godlike would be fun (does their bonus to Near Death enemies affect active DoTs?) but passing up on Helm of the Deep Grotto or Helm of The White Void is a hard sell. Hearth Orlan would work well with the Phantom summon, but, eh, burnt out on Orlans, too.

Attributes (including BB bonuses and Culture)
MIG: 15
CON: 10
DEX: 15
PER: 18
INT: 18
RES: 10

(I don't like min-maxing so I'll keep CON and RES at 8+2 BB)

Culture: Aedyr
Background: Aristocrat

Active Skills: High Stealth, some Athletics, two points Mechanics for Party Assist, maybe a bit of Alchemy
Passive Skills: Bluff, History or Streetwise


General questions:

Do all DoTs stack? Can I apply all four of the aforementioned effects to one enemy?

Poison items aren't so hot but I'd like to try something different with this build. Are there any types that stand out? Will the Rogue DoTs stack with them?

With Community Patch Keywords, Spirit of Decay now works with Toxic Strike - not sure if Nannasin's is affected. Would it be worth it? I could also use stuff like Death Ring or Noxious Burst, which are included in the Snakeskin Grimoire.

The Community Patch changed Backstab so it deals a flat Raw damage - guessing this would be worth it in the grand scheme of things, but with all the DoTs, enemies should already be dead. Also a bit concerned that Ninnasin's will add recovery since it's a two-weapon summon.

Obviously Nannasin's is going to be trash against pierce-immune and poison-immune enemies (as if Risen Wizards weren't annoying enough) so I'll need backup weapons. Any suggestions? Battle Axes seem they would be alright for an additional DoT, but I'd rather a caster use Magran's Favor and this build will take Two-Weapon style for Nannasin so the two-handers are out.

Are there any other gear recommendations? I'm guessing the typical Rogue setups (Miscreant's Leathers, Helm of the White Void, Chameleon's Touch) would work out. I've never tried stuff like Assassin's Slippers or the Skaen robe. Admittedly, I'm not very creative when it comes to equipment setups.

Thanks for reading. As I said earlier, I've never played with assassination mechanics in Deadfire or as a Spellblade. Looking forward to switching things up.

 

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Given the strategy you outline, of sneaking behind enemy lines and striking thence, I'd say assassin would be the natural rogue subclass to select with this build. Debonaire, with its cowardice penalty, is really meant for team play. Nanasin Cobra Strike also seems well suited for an assassin, since it hits hard. The slow recovery won't matter as much since you'll likely use smoke veil after attacking out of stealth. Assassin spellblades are really great overall, since many spells get the assassinate bonus when cast from stealth.

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53 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

sneaking behind enemy lines and striking thence, I'd say assassin would be the natural rogue subclass to select with this build. Debonaire, with its cowardice penalty,

yeah this right here is key.

i played a debonaire and really enjoyed it but if you're not going to try to ambush enemies with charm (which is great fun and is where debonaire shines at wrecking enemy kith encounters), the accuracy penalty is really going to work against your desired playstyle.

 

1 hour ago, Ophiuchus said:

Do all DoTs stack? Can I apply all four of the aforementioned effects to one enemy?

different named DoTs will stack. (some DoTs will stack with themselves, but they are less common) toxic/gouging/nannasin/deep wounds will all stack.

 

1 hour ago, Ophiuchus said:

Poison items aren't so hot but I'd like to try something different with this build. Are there any types that stand out? Will the Rogue DoTs stack with them?

i think the things that many people will find underwhelming about poisons on a higher difficulty is that a lot of easy to make ones target fort (which, while not as annoyingly high as in poe1, still tend to be hard defenses) and there's a severe action economy to them in combat, coupled with a bug where you have to consciously disable AI [or be in stealth which implicitly disables AI] or your character will ignore your usage of potions and instead do whatever their autoattack or AI script dictates. on potd especially you need a lot of alchemy points to get favorable accuracy/damage/duration scaling on poisons, they've been hit so hard with the nerfbat.

however, i find that Corrosive Soul Essence is a good all-purpose poison - extremely easy to make [spirit residue is real easy to come across] becomes super plentiful with BoW, does raw damage (less sensitive to needing lots of PL to penetrate enemy AR) and targets will, which you can easily debuff in a bajillion ways - a simple way is just to have your rogue use a club with bewildering blows [and clubs are +5 acc and are fast weapons]. (note: the wiki says it needs a mushroom too, but in my memory it only needs spirit residue and rune powder, which is why it's so easy to make. worth double-checking in game).

if you apply it before ambushing an enemy with an attack (careful application makes noise), or if you apply it combat while still stealthed (and you get a -85% recovery bonus) you get rid of the action economy problems of trying to use poisons in combat, and dodge the buggy AI issues.

other poisons can have their uses but are more niche or harder to make so i use them more sparingly, and hopefully with a morningstar debuff.

edit: direct PL bonuses are a real good way to improve poisons - they get around the half-PL-per-alchemy penalty so effetively are worth double their value in alchemy points, and poisons do scale generously (all of damage, duration, PEN, accuracy)

 

1 hour ago, Ophiuchus said:

Battle Axes seem they would be alright for an additional DoT, but I'd rather a caster use Magran's Favor and this build will take Two-Weapon style for Nannasin so the two-handers are out.

you can try weapons that are not axes but also have a dot. dagger -> true love's kiss, for example (and is slashing dmg).

 

1 hour ago, Ophiuchus said:

I've never tried stuff like Assassin's Slippers or the Skaen robe.

assassin's slippers are great for any stealth/ambush build. it's hard to get re-invised in fights, and assassin's slippers gives it to you for free. even just once in a fight can be huge.

Edited by thelee
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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the quick responses. I've decided to go for Assassin for the reasons mentioned (besides, it's not like Debonaire has any unique dialogue options, being a 4.0 subclass). For starting spells, would Wizard's Double and Thrust of Tattered Veils be decent choices? I played around with Eldritch Aim, but the duration is low even at 23 INT (18 + Infuse with Vital Essence) and recasting it will break Invisibility - it is a PL1 spell so it should scale well but Assassinate's Accuracy should be enough against gunners, Druids, and such. (Proud Dire Blessing junkie; feel naked without constant Aware.) Fleet Feet would be alright but the Snakeskin Grimoire already contains DAoM.

Edited by Ophiuchus
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For an assassin spellblade, you'll mainly want the spells that can be cast from stealth, like fireball, Shadowflame, the precisely piercing burst spell, etc. and also some CC to add afflictions for sneak attack deathblows, etc. You probably will not need many the buff spells, and can rely on grimoires when you need them. For starter spells, I'd recommend chillfog which is always great, as well as Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights, since dazed is a really powerful debuff. You probably won't need Eldritch Aim much, but it might be good to have access to it in a grimoire at least. Keep in mind that the duration will get better as your PLs increase.

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You should also aim for the Spider Silk Robe and its +2 Poison PL, I think it helps Nannasin's (?). Attacking with Poison attacks is annoying with several enemies but the ones that can be hit will be completely destroyed.

A very strong back up weapon could be Monastic Unarmed Training. With the high base damage and the PEN, it's bonkers on a melee Rogue.

All your DoTs are great, I would also recommend Ring the Bell which is very very strong and more frontloaded than Toxic Strike (useful for enemies with big health pool - and not immune to Poison :)). In practice, all those DoTs will often be overkill, especially if you target squishies primarily. You are going to completely destroy them in a couple full attacks anyway. But the initial application of the DoT will still help. Actually you could also mix and match with Devastating Blow.

Edited by Not So Clever Hound
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7 hours ago, dgray62 said:

For an assassin spellblade, you'll mainly want the spells that can be cast from stealth, like fireball, Shadowflame, the precisely piercing burst spell, etc. and also some CC to add afflictions for sneak attack deathblows, etc. You probably will not need many the buff spells, and can rely on grimoires when you need them. For starter spells, I'd recommend chillfog which is always great, as well as Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights, since dazed is a really powerful debuff. You probably won't need Eldritch Aim much, but it might be good to have access to it in a grimoire at least. Keep in mind that the duration will get better as your PLs increase.

I second the recommendation of Chillfog and Dazzling Lights as starting spell (and other Assassin spell choices also - although they may not lead to the playstyle you had in mind - Shadowflame opener to paralyze enemies would fit a sneaky bastard, though, I think).

Dazzling Lights are great to cast from stealth out of combat near the enemies (careful not to hit them!) to get their attention and gather them in one spot without starting combat.

Chillfog is useful throughout the game due to the pulsing Blind and ticking damage, but early on on a Spellblade Assassin the alpha strike can demolish entire mobs when you get Stealth Assassinate crits (which happens often with Assassinate).

Edited by Haplok
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I neglected to mention this character will be in a group so stuff like Chill Fog and Miasma can be handled by Aloth or Tekehu. Looking more into how a Nannasin's Rogue would fit into a party, I think it would make a fine sweeper-type: for example, an Unbroken/Trickster could Terrify with Ryngrim's Enervating Terror (no heals for you) while the snaky Spellblade runs around DoT striking everything.

I restarted as a Debonaire but will play more as a flanker than a roamer. Having an Assassin cast Essential Phantom or Living Illusions while managing Invisibility and recovery timers) gummed up the action economy and burst damage, and the twin snake is necessary since I'm trying to do something offbeat. Debonaire's penalties are easy enough to manage, and I can still bask in the goodness that is a stealth-cast, party-wide Dire Blessing.

Quick question on Crits and AR-dependent DoTs: Do Graze/Hit/Crit conversions activate on the initial strike or per DoT tick? Wondering if Debonaire's Hit-to-Crit conversion would impact Toxic Strike's intensity.
 

2 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

You should also aim for the Spider Silk Robe and its +2 Poison PL, I think it helps Nannasin's (?). Attacking with Poison attacks is annoying with several enemies but the ones that can be hit will be completely destroyed.

A very strong back up weapon could be Monastic Unarmed Training. With the high base damage and the PEN, it's bonkers on a melee Rogue.

All your DoTs are great, I would also recommend Ring the Bell which is very very strong and more frontloaded than Toxic Strike (useful for enemies with big health pool - and not immune to Poison :)). In practice, all those DoTs will often be overkill, especially if you target squishies primarily. You are going to completely destroy them in a couple full attacks anyway. But the initial application of the DoT will still help. Actually you could also mix and match with Devastating Blow.

Good call on Ring the Bell. Waiting for Toxic Strike is going to be the hardest part.

@Not So Clever HoundJust realized Nannasin's should work with both the One-Handed and Ranged components: so a DoT and bonus PEN. Is this right?


 

Edited by Ophiuchus
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I personally would pick Streetfighter if there's a reliable and convenient way to trigger Heating Up (for example a Chanter with upgraded Whisps). The high base dmg of Cobra Strike goes so well with the increased Sneak Attack-, crit- and speed bonuses. Heck, with all the wizard buffs you might as well just Escape right into a mob and get flanked, cobrastrike everybody around with Arterial Stikes and escape elsewhere. :) 

Cobra Strike's poison doesn't stack with itself - so it's best to shoot at a lot of different enemies and not focus on a single one (just generally speaking).

It's a ranged weapon - so it would work with Driving Flight... (just saying ;)). You also can't use Persistent Distraction (bit Chillfog etc. is good enough to trigger Deathblows).

High INT with Cobra Strike + Toxic Strike is a death sentence if the target is not immune to poison. 

 

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9 hours ago, thelee said:

however, i find that Corrosive Soul Essence is a good all-purpose poison - extremely easy to make [spirit residue is real easy to come across] becomes super plentiful with BoW, does raw damage (less sensitive to needing lots of PL to penetrate enemy AR) and targets will, which you can easily debuff in a bajillion ways - a simple way is just to have your rogue use a club with bewildering blows [and clubs are +5 acc and are fast weapons]. (note: the wiki says it needs a mushroom too, but in my memory it only needs spirit residue and rune powder, which is why it's so easy to make. worth double-checking in game).

Checked in game. They do require the mushrooms.
 

Quote

I personally would pick Streetfighter if there's a reliable and convenient way to trigger Heating Up (for example a Chanter with upgraded Whisps). The high base dmg of Cobra Strike goes so well with the increased Sneak Attack-, crit- and speed bonuses. Heck, with all the wizard buffs you might as well just Escape right into a mob and get flanked, cobrastrike everybody around with Arterial Stikes and escape elsewhere.

:)

 


Now that sounds brutal. Shame our test dummies are immune to poison.

It's a ranged weapon - so it would work with Driving Flight... (just saying

;)). You also can't use Persistent Distraction (bit Chillfog etc. is good enough to trigger Deathblows).

Guessing this is because Nannasin's are ranged and therefore can't be used to engage? Thanks for clearing up that point - couldn't remember if it was a ranged or a reach weapon. Also guessing it's a weird weapon-but-not-weapon in that it has no specialization.

 

Edited by Ophiuchus
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26 minutes ago, Ophiuchus said:

Quick question on Crits and AR-dependent DoTs: Do Graze/Hit/Crit conversions activate on the initial strike or per DoT tick? Wondering if Debonaire's Hit-to-Crit conversion would impact Toxic Strike's intensity.

Don't actually know about the PEN of the ticks (does it stay at *1.5...?) - but at least you'll get bonus duration from a crit - so that's always great on a DoT. 

By the way: the PL scaling of the attack you use (e.g. Arterial Strike) will not only scale up the DoT from the ability itself but also scale up the poison damage of Cobra Strike. So with an auto-attack you will deal lesser dmg ticks than with an ability attack that has some PL scaling.

Edited by Boeroer
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19 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I personally would pick Streetfighter

That's fair but on the other hand, with an Assassin the toon could be called Nannassassin and be super cute. :) 

OK sorry, I will see myself out.

BTW Cobra Strike being ranged, my point about Ring the Bell probably won't work... and Pierce the Bell isn't as good. :( 

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49 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

That's fair but on the other hand, with an Assassin the toon could be called Nannassassin and be super cute. :) 

Haha, I was about to make a similar joke with Assassin's Nannasin's Sigmatism Strike - but I was disturbed by my youngest daughter (who actually lisps like hell so that was a great inspiration to begin with) who wanted to put on her arm floats and stuff... and then totally forgot about that silly joke. 🥴

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1 hour ago, Ophiuchus said:

I neglected to mention this character will be in a group so stuff like Chill Fog and Miasma can be handled by Aloth or Tekehu. Looking more into how a Nannasin's Rogue would fit into a party, I think it would make a fine sweeper-type: for example, an Unbroken/Trickster could Terrify with Ryngrim's Enervating Terror (no heals for you) while the snaky Spellblade runs around DoT striking everything.


Quick question on Crits and AR-dependent DoTs: Do Graze/Hit/Crit conversions activate on the initial strike or per DoT tick? Wondering if Debonaire's Hit-to-Crit conversion would impact Toxic Strike's intensity.
 

Yeah, well, Aloth's or Tekehu's Chillfogs hardly aoe 1HKO early enemies. An assassin Spellblade's can (high Accuracy, high Penetration, +50% Crit damage(x2, normally you'd crit far less), +30% Overpenetration damage on the alpha strike. The meaner early enemies will be left with 1/2 health after the alpha strike.

Slightly later stuff like Corrosive Siphon is also way more effective when you can vanish.

 

As for DoT attack classification as Graze/Hit/Crit it happens on the initial strike.

Edited by Haplok
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Yes, the attack quality is determined during the initial strike - but will the following ticks all have *1.5 PEN if the initial strike crits? One can't check in the combat log (ticks don't get a log entry) so the only way would be to attack an enemy who has high corrode AR (high enough so that you underpenetrate without crit but penetrate with a crit). 

Also, what PEN does Toxic Strike work with? It doesn't say in the description since it's a Full Attack ability and the initial dmg will use the PEN of your weapon + PL scaling - but do the ticks just use that PEN from the initial attack (including passives and weapon quality and crit-bonus)? Or do they use their own? I really never tried to find that stuff out. 

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I haven't done serious/controlled testing, but I have used Toxic Strike a lot with a wide variety of weapons and against a wide variety of enemies on Upscaled PotD, and with a balanced mix of Hits and Crits (well, mostly Crits 😎).

In my experience, I have always reached consistent numbers, from the initial application and then with the ~+3DMG added every tick up to the total meltdown of the enemy. Over/under-Pen would add enough DMG variation that I **think** I would have noticed. This is questionable evidence at best of course but empirical and based on dozens of encounters Solo.

Do you guys have a different experience?

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No, not really.

I guess it uses the initial attack's PEN value - because I don't remember a full peneration crit followed by paltry ticks.
But I don't have done any testing or research with this so I can't be sure. 

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2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Yes, the attack quality is determined during the initial strike - but will the following ticks all have *1.5 PEN if the initial strike crits? One can't check in the combat log (ticks don't get a log entry) so the only way would be to attack an enemy who has high corrode AR (high enough so that you underpenetrate without crit but penetrate with a crit). 
 

Hm, this is worth re-testing. I did some playing around with Pernicious Cloud back in the day (huge corrode aoe makes it easy to hit a lot of enemies and players and get lots of results), don't remember how that played out, and then checked my guide, and based on the wording I put I don't actually remember what I intended to mean about how DoT + PEN works or if i just had some oversight. I suspect the boosted PEN lasts the entire time, and dynamic adjustments to your PEN while the DoT is going will adjust the base that the crit is based off.

Edited by thelee
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On 6/11/2021 at 8:53 AM, thelee said:

Hm, this is worth re-testing. I did some playing around with Pernicious Cloud back in the day (huge corrode aoe makes it easy to hit a lot of enemies and players and get lots of results), don't remember how that played out, and then checked my guide, and based on the wording I put I don't actually remember what I intended to mean about how DoT + PEN works or if i just had some oversight. I suspect the boosted PEN lasts the entire time, and dynamic adjustments to your PEN while the DoT is going will adjust the base that the crit is based off.

i just gave this a test and alas, crits do not keep any persistent PEN bonus - they just constantly track your current effective ability PEN and the target's defensive AR and forget any effect that's not currently active - they don't even remember that you empowered them for purposes of PEN (but they do remember you empowered for purposes of PL-based damage bonuses [not the +15% empowered damage passive though]).

So crits on DoTs are *only* useful for multiplicative duration increase. In a way, this makes sense within Deadfire-rules, because DoTs also do not wake up sleeping enemies from Call to Slumber or eliminate Takedown Combo - better to think of DoTs primarily as debuffs with a certain effect that causes health loss rather than as a damage effect.

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10 minutes ago, thelee said:

better to think of DoTs primarily as debuffs with a certain effect that causes health loss rather than as a damage effect.

Thanks @thelee. In my experience certain DoTs have a very funky behavior of their own.

I have killed Dorudugan in many many (too many) instances with Gouging Strike and/or True Love's Kiss (not because I'm a coward who likes shortcuts mind you, my religion simply forbids me to engage this construct in open combat :)). My DoTs applied to it have been very often all over the place in the long duration of its demise, sometimes Gouging Strike was starting at 8DMG/3sec then going up to 12DMG/3sec, then changing again to a different value... same for True Love's Kiss.

I can understand how the initial application can determine the DMG ticks, but why would the value of the ticks change dynamically and randomly to different values without other conditions changing? (I did not quaff a Potion of Ascension halfway through, I did not get bloodied/near death to trigger racial passives... nothing).

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23 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I can understand how the initial application can determine the DMG ticks, but why would the value of the ticks change dynamically and randomly to different values without other conditions changing? (I did not quaff a Potion of Ascension halfway through, I did not get bloodied/near death to trigger racial passives... nothing).

all i can say is that something *has* to have been changing, condition-wise - stats or PL or some such. I know there can be some oddities with trying to queue up an empowered ability when you already have an ability in the process of being used*, but otherwise i don't know what else would cause such a change.

 

* oh boy this might be another thing like that grimoire borrowed spells that i mostly dismissed as an annoyance but might be cheese potential.

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6 minutes ago, thelee said:

* oh boy this might be another thing like that grimoire borrowed spells that i mostly dismissed as an annoyance but might be cheese potential.

image.jpeg.b7c648ae7fdc8b72b2600ed75ce35042.jpeg

Seriously though, I'm only doing no rest runs and I'm positive in all these instances there were no Empower shenanigans. They were also not involving Chanter where I would be tempted to use Sasha's Scimitar or anything. No Empower, just me applying a DoT to Doru and then retreating to the south east corner of the map. Could Doru's PL (its "charging" abilities) influence the DoT he takes?

Edited by Not So Clever Hound
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