Are Ciphers good on PotD?

[Raven Darkholme]

2 hours ago, abot said:

> The only time cipher really shines is if you multiclass it with perfect matches like chanter, ranger wizard or priest
Well, that's 4 classes to combine with, this "the only time" concept seems good enough for me.

Assuming no strand of favor cheese is used, IMO cipher can still be one of best classes for multi (as showed clearing the dig site, gorecci street  etc), obviously synergies/what kind of cipher subclass is better varies with the other class
I think the problem here is you are measuring class/class combination power mostly with damage per second, I am measuring it with ability to overcome challenges (with/without cheese) in longer times using tactics/synergy with other classes

Single class solo no cheese, yes, I may agree there are probably better classes (single class blood mage on top, maybe monk but I have not enough experience with monks) than single class cipher as cipher needs synergy to shine, so multiclass or party.

[EDIT] @dgray62 about a mystic class, I've been impressed by Yue Dai Priest of Skaen/Ascendant build used for the ultimate, once you get SOT+BDD+Scordeo+Brilliant+Ascended spells like Mind Blades become another thing, maybe I'd use human instead of death godlike, less powerful probably but easier to survive if your reflexes (I mean the real ones, not player stat) are not top notch

That's how that statement might sound if you read it superficially, but if you pay attention to the classes I listed they happen to be the best classes for multiclassing with ANY class.

Once again I never said ciphers are bad, but if you multiclass with one of those 4 classes anyway you should always ask yourself why you would multiclass it with a cipher and not another class.

In a party the answer is quite obviously brilliant, but solo the most obvious answer is SoF, if you don't wanna use that there isn't much left besides charm (which isn't exclusive to cipher) and SA (which is a lot better with SoF or at least a priest/wizard for extension).

There will almost always be better classes to multi chanter/priest/wizard with than cipher.

Ranger is slightly different as it's not that great for solo but with a cipher the synergy becomes quite nice.

For me playing a cipher is more about diversity and not always playing the same classes I played before, and it's definitely good enough for that, I'd never go as far and say it's not viable, unlike barbarian, which is really useless in this game sadly, except for some super niche uses.

[Boeroer]

14 hours ago, Raven Darkholme said:

The only classes for SOLO worse than cipher are barbarian and maybe ranger (even tho ranger is honestly already similar or better to cipher).

I see you didn't play solo Furyshaper.  

Melee Geomancer was one of my favorite solo runs. 

 

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Reent said:

with community patch sure, without... i just don't see it - okay, FF for enfeebled, but it sounds like the wound/focus generation suffers.

Just pick FF/Beguiler and it's a non-issue most of times. Enfeeble can be very helpful in certain encounters. Not only because the duration of enemies' afflictions is longer but also because enemies who heal get messed up very badly.

[Boeroer]

15 hours ago, abot said:

For Psion:
Whisper of Treason/Puppet Master, (maybe Valorous Echoes too but only until you get Pain Link, maybe Eyestrike but cinder bombs are cheap and then you will probably get the chilling fog), Psychovampiric Shield (this one is good for a little extra deflection on start, less enemy deflection and lowered will to be able to land borrowed instinct on tough enemies), Mind Blades (great at middle/high level for super fast/easy spam casting on >= 2 enemies), Pain Link, Secret Horrors (control+lowering defenses), Mental Binding (covering paralyze until you get the Grave Calling synergy up), Borrowed Instinct, Ringleader, Tactical Meld, Disintegration, Screaming Souls (Mind Plague/Amplified Wave are good but when your skeletons stream is available you usually have enough focus to be able to use Screaming Souls)
Passives: Penetrating Visions, Arms Bearer, Hammering Thoughts,  Monastic Unarmed Training, The Empty Soul

I'm quite surprised I don't see Killers Froze Stiff and Ben Fidel's Neck in that list. Were two staples of my Troub/Psion run. Especially as soon as I got Many Lives Pass By since it lowers the necessity to summon other creatures that often. 

At some point I used Ngati's Tusk + Cap of the Laughingstock (sometimes) to lower enemies defenses by -10 without any attack roll - and combined with Helm of the White Void for improving my "virtual" accuracy for all kinds of debuffs/CC a lot. Cap of the Laughingstock means no fear effects on enemies - so I mainly used it against enemies who are resistant/immune anyways.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

13 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I see you didn't play solo Furyshaper.

I was 100% sure you were going to reply and mention this toon  @Raven Darkholme should like it especially because at high level Blood Ward synergizes so well with the axe modal IIRC, which seems to be Raven's favorite modal .

Edited June 4, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Boeroer]

1 minute ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I was 100% sure you were going to reply and mention this toon  @Raven Darkholme should like it especially because at high level it synergizes so well with the axe modal IIRC, which seems to be Raven's favorite modal .

Indeed. It's fun - although I did struggle a bit without cheese and consumables (which I usually avoid) in the late game. With scrolls though... 

[abot]

> I'm quite surprised I don't see Killers Froze Stiff and Ben Fidel's Neck in that list
I prefer mental binding (until chilling fog is available) for paralyze from psion and thunder rolled for stun from chanter so it is less likely to be out of fuel for both of them if needed, and also usually I can cast faster from psion than from troubadour because i like to have some controllable summons always up as meat shield/damage/casting target etc so part of troubadour resources go there
More or less the same for ben fidel vs secret horrors (I guess you could get it instead of something else e.g. Screaming Souls, and invest the extra slot to get the upgrade to ben fidel so you can aim for the -10 defense) , but all in all it is a matter of taste/playstyle, both classes have spells able to cover similar situations so you can choose, the only problem is there are too many good spells and you can't get all of them
[EDIT] also I think especially with the ultimate bosses respec helps a lot adapting to the situation so you may want this or that ability at a certain time

> Cap of the Laughingstock (sometimes) to lower enemies defenses by -10 without any attack roll - and combined with Helm of the White Void
Yeah, the cap helps a lot with high defense enemies, the helm is just great and the helm slot is the reason why all in all I think human > death godlike. By the way one of the most underestimated helmets IMO is horns of the bleak mother, it's a terrific one for the price

Edited June 4, 2021 by abot

[Raven Darkholme]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I see you didn't play solo Furyshaper.  

Melee Geomancer was one of my favorite solo runs. 

 

How do you deal with longer fights?

The wards disappearing give you a stacking PL penalty even if they don't get destroyed.

It's maybe not the biggest deal but doesn't sound remotely close to other good classes that don't come with such penalties.

I think most classes are pretty balanced in deadfire anyway, even the worse classes can keep up with the better ones to some degree and ofc multiclassing a worse class with a better one always helps.

[Boeroer]

56 minutes ago, Raven Darkholme said:

The wards disappearing give you a stacking PL penalty even if they don't get destroyed.

Huh? Since when? For me they only did that if they got destroyed.

I didn't use a lot of Rage for active abilities. Only Blood Storm (then you don't need that much Rage because it prolongs with kills) and wards. Sometimes HoF at the start of a fight to apply Bledding Cuts to a whole group of enemies at once. 

I didn't do Megabosses. They just stink. For the rest it was fun. 

Of course I was only half serious: Barbarian in general really isn't that great for solo. Furyshaper isn't supergood either - but the Blood Ward mechanic makes it viable and lots of fun imo. One of the few combos where it's actually viable (in most fights) to jump right into the crowd and swing your weapon around like a madman.
In a party Blood Ward can obviously be totally bonkers (hello Plague of Insects and stuff).   

[Raven Darkholme]

47 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Huh? Since when? For me they only did that if they got destroyed.

I didn't use a lot of Rage for active abilities. Only Blood Storm (then you don't need that much Rage because it prolongs with kills) and wards. Sometimes HoF at the start of a fight to apply Bledding Cuts to a whole group of enemies at once. 

I didn't do Megabosses. They just stink. For the rest it was fun. 

Of course I was only half serious: Barbarian in general really isn't that great for solo. Furyshaper isn't supergood either - but the Blood Ward mechanic makes it viable and lots of fun imo. One of the few combos where it's actually viable (in most fights) to jump right into the crowd and swing your weapon around like a madman.
In a party Blood Ward can obviously be totally bonkers (hello Plague of Insects and stuff).   

If you didn't do megabosses maybe your wards never ran out?

(they last like 200+ seconds)

Or it just got fixed since Furyshaper got released, there was at least one patch since then.

[dgray62]

In my version of the game you only get the PL malus if they're destroyed. I always have a priest with withdrawal in my party, and use that if the ward is being threatened.

[Boeroer]

Yes, like that. Except I use it all the time as a precaution, not only when threatened.  

[Marigoldran]

Ascendant Cipher/Helwalker Monk is amazing. Wounds increase damage, which increases focus generation. Wounds also increase intelligence, which increases time of ascendancy.