Feigned Roleplaying

[Aegeri]

As for Malak, situations like his are not new. Many villians in many RPGs have toyed with the protagonist at points earlier in the game. Malak was toying with you.....

 

Toying with me? Does that explain why I was throwing him around like a **** and generally humiliating him with my force powers ALONE?

 

Hmmmm....

[CastleBravo]

As for Malak, situations like his are not new. Many villians in many RPGs have toyed with the protagonist at points earlier in the game. Malak was toying with you.....

 

Toying with me? Does that explain why I was throwing him around like a **** and generally humiliating him with my force powers ALONE?

 

Hmmmm....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That was just a poorly thought out encounter on Bioware's part. It seemed more like I had scared him away than the other way around.

 

Malak should have met the player under conditions where he was so much more powerful than you that he just beat you like a drum, then have Bastila's intervention triggered by your health dropping below a certain level so he doesn't kill you.

[GhostofAnakin]

That was just a poorly thought out encounter on Bioware's part.  It seemed more like I had scared him away than the other way around. 

 

Malak should have met the player under conditions where he was so much more powerful than you that he just beat you like a drum, then have Bastila's intervention triggered by your health dropping below a certain level so he doesn't kill you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorta like the Calo Nord encounter the first time in the cantina on Taris, except not so drastic. Maybe three hits by Malak and it knocks you down and the Bastila cutscene kicks in.

[alanschu]

True...the way the fight was handled could have been better.

 

I noticed that in Jedi Academy (which I just started playing, and am mentioning since other people brought it up), the first encounter with Tavion's apprentice is similar to Malak's encounter. I kicked her butt so fast and she ended up running away. I think the only difference is that there isn't an obvious health meter like Malak had.

 

Although I will concede the probably should have had Malak be much more difficult and have Bastila come in and save you. Although they probably had to stasis Carth/Bastila to make sure that Malak didn't actually kill any of them in the fight. Perhaps first encounter should have been easy, and second encounter (when Carth and Bastila are out of sight) much harder, where when he smacks you down to low health Bastila steps in.

[ShinIchiro]

Silly to silly minds. In pen&paper RPG such situation would be random. And I can't understand how I can loose with Malak if Revan is stronger and more powerful? Malak didn't even scratch me and yet devs forced his victory. This is cheating.

 

This is clear fault of those who were responsible for the script. I would change the storyline into something else, more complicated than just starmap run filled with

subquests.

 

I'm not saying that video games can have randomized storyline comparable to

classic paper RPG but KOTOR could be a little more complicated and many things could be added. I just feel that something is missing in the storyline.

 

Besides Leviathan is really painfully linear. Many outcomes could be set instead of one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

As for Shin thinking it would be possible to beat Malak's implementation on the Forge by that time....try it. Do not level up once you reach Malak the first time, and see how well you do against him on the forge. (or if you have the PC version, get to him and find a way to hack your character to that level, since you wouldn't have to do the rest of the game at that level.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Ummm...I fought Malak on the Leviathan at something like lvl 19...with a guardian... Malak's actually pathetically easy if you prepare correctly... Leveling quickly is really not that hard in KOTOR...at all...

 

 

Also, I would have preferred a cutscene. Better yet, a cutscene with two possible results depending on whether you're more inclined towards DS or LS. Maybe as LS you get beaten upside the head or something (and Bastila or someone comes) and as DS you unleash your wrath upon Malak (and beat the **** out of him) and are set upon by his disciples, requiring Bastila to aid you and get left behind...

 

Cutscenes in KOTOR were some of the weaker areas I think...possibly due to the multiple facial possibilities. I would like to have seen some good, long, and important cutscenes. That fight would have been the perfect oppurtunity.

[HalasterBlack]

First of all, someone should have warned me that my topic would get a second life.

 

Second, if your just getting into this topic, try to read the before post, despite how long they are, and try not to repeat them

 

Third

Shin's got a point...It is indeed the little nuances that give stories their edge, their "flavoring", if you will. Were it not for the nice little touches and psychologically pleasing aspects of KOTOR's "choices", I'd of never even considered playing the game........ok, yeah, I would have played it...but I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heres the difference between you and me. I got no satisifaction was so ever from these so-called "choices." I did however get irritated by them on occasion. Irration was due to

a) No real emotion involvement between the choices

 

EXAMPLE: Accepting the bounty on waitress or trying to get it off her head

 

SOLUTION: Maybe expand the story a bit, imagery would help, maybe more teamNPC involvement on pressure to do choose this, more serious results like maybe I get butt-load of money for bounty, or her family places bounty on my head if I kill her.

 

B) Result of Choice, most the time, quests did not give satisfactary rewards for your choice. In fact, alot of the time, the quests seemed to reward the PC more for one choice. (damn Lightside) Pretty much destroying the fun of having the choice in the first place

 

EXAMPLE: Kill the shark with acid, or convince it to go away peacefully. If you choose acid, you got kicked of Manaan and were unable to finish races(MONEY MONEY MONEY) and the Assassin Guild (Geohardan Awesome Items). Promptly screwed.

 

SOLUTION: Give better rewards for all quests and choices, PC should feel that they have accomplished something, and try not to give punishments

 

And yes, by not enjoying these choices, it did cut down alot on playability

 

I think the thing is KOTOR chose to go the "storyline" route, and I suppose a lot of its freedom suffered because of it.  But at the same time, I personally "cared" more for the KOTOR story and its characters than I did for the Fallout 2 characters and story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

a) Yah storyline route is personally not my favorite route, but its what Bioware is good at. I feel that every game should be looked over like "what will the PC feel if he knows the storyline ahead of time". I dont think KOTOR was looked over that way, and even though it has a great storyline, it doesn't have enough polish. Thats what really makes a game, polish. Just look at all the Blizzard games.

 

B) I personally "hated" the characters from the KOTOR story. Bastila was a sassy brat. Carth was a whinny blockhead punk. The little twilek(ack spelling) girl was crazy, annoying, reckless, and always getting in the way. The wookie was a frickin betrayer and fricking betrayed me. Juhani is manic depressive to the max.

 

The old man was ok, but I could never fricking figure him out. I thought he was on my side, but as soon as I declare myself Dark Lord of the Sith, he attempts to stap me in the back.

 

Only the Mandalorian and HK-47 were actually worth their pay. Well, until you actually used them in combat, cause all ranged weapons and non-jedi suck.

[GhostofAnakin]

B) I personally "hated" the characters from the KOTOR story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just out of curiosity, so you're saying you cared more for the FO2 NPCs? If so, what exactly did you like about them?

 

IMO, they had very little "characterization" to them. No real backstory. I never felt compelled to talk to them or learn more about them. They were simply "hired guns" for me to tote along when I needed a bit more firepower.

 

I'm just curious what it was about them that interested you.

[LoneWolf16]

To each his own, I guess.

 

Your problems with the game, Halaster, seem to be centered around a lack of DS...hmmm...can't really think of a word to describe it accurately, though a few come to mind that are close...hell, I'll just go with "playability". Being one of those stalwart LSers, (I've mentioned this before in other threads, but I've got one hell of a conscience, about even little things like games) the blatant lack of DS favorable outcomes was forgivable.

 

Along with that, you seem to not be as able to fill in KOTOR's "gaps" with a little imagination as I am. I don't mean that as an insult, or anything of that nature, but it's just an observation...Personally, I liked the characters. Primarily, it was for their flaws, since it made them seem a bit more human than the average NPC.

 

Like I said at the beginning of this post, To each his own, I guess...

[Nur Ab Sal]

First of all, someone should have warned me that my topic would get a second life.

 

Second, if your just getting into this topic, try to read the before post, despite how long they are, and try not to repeat them

 

Forgive us o mighty King & Queen of RPG! Will you spare our lives? hehe

[HalasterBlack]

Just out of curiosity, so you're saying you cared more for the FO2 NPCs?  If so, what exactly did you like about them?

 

IMO, they had very little "characterization" to them.  No real backstory.  I never felt compelled to talk to them or learn more about them.  They were simply "hired guns" for me to tote along when I needed a bit more firepower.

 

I'm just curious what it was about them that interested you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ive never actually played Fallout 2 (most likely a serious oversight) but Ill apply your statement to other RPG's to address the basic issue.

Ill agree that alot if not most RPG's have very little character storyline. (Morrowind had next to zero NPC charaterization, FF7 didn't have much)

However I think that you are leaving out the BG characters as a comparison point.

I personally feel that BG characters were better characterized than KOTOR characters. The main thing that seperated this from KOTOR was that they didn't push character storylines onto you in BG.

 

KOTOR in my opinion (as opposed to Satans) did a bad job of storyline and character traits for my teammates. It seemed to only give storyline to the characters that I hated and not the characters I liked.

 

My Favorite Characters:

HK-47

Candorous

Old Man

 

My Hated Characters:

Carth

Bastila

Juhani

 

They pushed forth the story of Bastila with her mother- a quest that I hated

and they pushed forth the story of Carth with the general- I also didnt like

 

They did nothing with Candorous, they gave almost no storyline to HK, and although there was a quest for the old man you never find out who the heck he is.

 

Also they seem to be pushing character traits that I either dont like, dont really relate to, or relate to put dont want to witness in a game.

 

Lets list my favorite Star Wars characters(does have a point)(not in order)

Han Solo, Boba Fett, Darth Vader, and Naga Sadow (there are others)

 

Lets list some attributes that they dont have

unintelligent, whinny, melodramatic, sassy(use of authority you dont have),

 

Lets list other characters without these attributes

Batman (DC), Sean Dillon (Jack Higgins Books), Raistlin Majere (DragonLance), Elminster (FR), Wolverine (Marvel)

 

Lets list attributes that Juhini, Carth, and Bastila did have

Juhani was whinny and melodramatic

Carth was whinny, unintelligent, and melodramatic

Bastila was sassy and whinny

 

Not being unintelligent, whinny,.... does not mean that a character is not deep. Han Solo, Sean Dillon, Raistlin, and Elminster are all exceptionally deep characters. The reverse can be applied just because Juhani was melodramatic, depressed, and whinny doesn't make her deep.

 

In conclusion, yes, giving characters traits such as ..... may make me relate to them, but that doesn't mean I will like them. Thus the ascension of Batman, Wolverine, Raistlin, Elminster, and Boba Fett in mythology and the decline of Insert Suckity.

[HalasterBlack]

To each his own, I guess.

 

Your problems with the game, Halaster, seem to be centered around a lack of DS...hmmm...can't really think of a word to describe it accurately, though a few come to mind that are close...hell, I'll just go with "playability". Being one of those stalwart LSers, (I've mentioned this before in other threads, but I've got one hell of a conscience, about even little things like games) the blatant lack of DS favorable outcomes was forgivable.

 

Along with that, you seem to not be as able to fill in KOTOR's "gaps" with a little imagination as I am. I don't mean that as an insult, or anything of that nature, but it's just an observation...Personally, I liked the characters. Primarily, it was for their flaws, since it made them seem a bit more human than the average NPC.

 

Like I said at the beginning of this post, To each his own, I guess...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I will agree that the LS side of the game was exceptionally well done and polished. When you went lightside their was good feats, powers, and to a point storyline. However one sided games get boring fast, espicially(Captain SpellWrong to the Failure!) when they were designed to be two sided.

[HalasterBlack]

A big discussion in this topic recently seems to be needless coping of NWN. So speaking of copying have any you played the Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight. An ancient game now. And it was a FPS basically, but alot of similarities between it and KOTOR exist.

[GhostofAnakin]

My Favorite Characters:

HK-47

Candorous

Old Man

 

My Hated Characters:

Carth

Bastila

Juhani

 

They pushed forth the story of Bastila with her mother- a quest that I hated

and they pushed forth the story of Carth with the general- I also didnt like

 

They did nothing with Candorous, they gave almost no storyline to HK, and although there was a quest for the old man you never find out who the heck he is.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Out of curiosity, did you actually play through the game and visit all the options? Because they DID tell you exactly who Jolee (the old man) was and why he was where he was if you had conversations with him.

 

Plus, Canderous did in fact have a storyline and side quest associated with him. They didn't neglect either of them, and while their "storylines" weren't as "fleshed out" as Carth or Bastila's, that's merely because Carth and Bastila were designed to be the two main sub-heroes.

[HalasterBlack]

Out of curiosity, did you actually play through the game and visit all the options?  Because they DID tell you exactly who Jolee (the old man) was and why he was where he was if you had conversations with him.

 

Plus, Canderous did in fact have a storyline and side quest associated with him.  They didn't neglect either of them, and while their "storylines" weren't as "fleshed out" as Carth or Bastila's, that's merely because Carth and Bastila were designed to be the two main sub-heroes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would you mind telling where or how Canderous' sidequest took place. I did talk to Canderous, but I thought his story ended after he told you of his alien (Yuka Zong-spelled wrong) encounter. And (I use beginning sentence ands alot and think it makes me a rebel) I will admit that I didn't follow the character conversations as much as maybe I should have, they were a hassle that I would have been more partial to them if I could hear it all in one sitting.

[GhostofAnakin]

Would you mind telling where or how Canderous' sidequest took place. I did talk to Canderous, but I thought his story ended after he told you of his alien (Yuka Zong-spelled wrong) encounter. And (I use beginning sentence ands alot and think it makes me a rebel) I will admit that I didn't follow the character conversations as much as maybe I should have, they were a hassle that I would have been more partial to them if I could hear it all in one sitting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The more you talk to Canderous, you finally hear about one of his stories about a command where he helped win a battle. Then one of the guys in his squad shows up at one of the trigger points and a cutscene happens where the guy talks about how Canderous let his men die just to get himself his glory. He challenges Canderous to a fight on Tatooine and Canderous accepts.

[Influence]

I tried, o how i tried, to be DS. I could not do it; i know its kinda of sad, but my consience woudl nto let me do bad things to the pixelated fictional characters(well not only my conscience the insesint naggin of Carth and bastilla didn't help). Even if the story line is not effected by EVERY single choice you make, choosing LS or DS adds a whole new dimension to the game and is one of its best features.

 

-But i do nto want to fully disagree with you. I do believe an improvement woudl be more divergent and numerous paths of light and dark side, so that you dont feel liek 70% of your choices in dialogue are pointless.

[LoneWolf16]

I tried, o how i tried, to be DS. I could not do it; i know its kinda of sad, but my consience woudl nto let me do bad things to the pixelated fictional characters(well not only my conscience the insesint naggin of Carth and bastilla didn't help). Even if the story line is not effected by EVERY single choice you make, choosing LS or DS adds a whole new dimension to the game and is one of its best features.

 

-But i do nto want to fully disagree with you. I do believe an improvement woudl be more divergent and numerous paths of light and dark side, so that you dont feel liek 70% of your choices in dialogue are pointless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Amen brother...having a conscience sucks, doesn't it?

[Doublehex]

yeah, that's what kept me from being DS. Even in Fable, I almost kinda felt bad for killing random merchants.

[Mnemon]

Which basically is the problem of how LS and DS where portraied. Fallout allowed you a whole lot of variation between a Good and an Evil character - you had more of a possibility to shape the role your character should take. As such it allowed vor a wide variety of Grey as well as several takes on what Good or what evil is.

 

Kotor obviously followed the LS and DS in very specific ways which made sure there only was an absolut Black and White setting in terms of how good and how evil is defined. Of course part of that results from what the setting was. But in the area of how LS and especially DS was defined Kotor really lacks choice. Killing stuff all the time is not the only - and usually not a very successful - way to "be evil." I'd much prefer choices to have a higher moral variance - give more than one way to be good and more than one to be evil in any given situation even if you are limited by such a clear LS-DS distinction. And of course, make those decisions have an impact on how your character is received by those around her/him and those that are to judge the person, which your actions as a player define.

 

In terms of a linear story based game - Planescape: Torment proves you can include choices that feel meaningful to the player (at least to most) while still maintaining linearity and story.

 

-Mnemon

[mastaGAW]

Actually if ou did something on one Czerka planet random NPCs talked about it on another planet.

[Darth Sirius]

Actually if ou did something on one Czerka planet random NPCs talked about it on another planet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A little vague. Can you be more specific?

[sickboycp]

Actually if ou did something on one Czerka planet random NPCs talked about it on another planet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A little vague. Can you be more specific?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

On Kashyyk, if you help the Wookies overthrow the Czerka Corporation on the planet, later if you go to Korriban or Tattooine, one of the Czerka Reps will mention how horrible it was that they lost Kashyyk and how they heard the "barbaric" Wookies slaughtered all the Czerka on the planet.

[alanschu]

Canderous, Jolee, and HK-47 all have their own miniquest much in the line of Juhani, Carth, and Bastila.

 

Carth and Bastila have some additional interactions because they are the romance options.

[KoToRfReAk]

even if every single little descision affects the game play, its a game, like you said on taris its all meaningless because it all gets blown up anyways , but in that sense so is the game, because you quit playing it, so was the game meaningless

[alanschu]

Hooray for bringing back a thread from the dead! :angry: