A Fifth of Coronavirus

[teknoman2]

i was listening to a doctor in tv that was saying that the famous "immunity wall" is a myth when it comes to covid. vaccination created an immunity wall for measles, smallpox, polio etc, because these vaccinations are one off; you get the shot, you are safe forever and the virus can't spread. covid is like the flu (another member of the corona family) and can't be eradicated because the spread can't be stopped. the data from Israel, that has exceeded 90% vaccination, shows that 16% of vaccinated people still can get sick enough from covid to need hospitalization while the rest get infected with their symptoms being mild to none, however an asymptomatic and vaccinated person can still spread the virus to others. the vaccine is a useful tool to highly reduce the number of deaths and the number of hospitals that get overwhelmed by patients who need breathing support, but it cannot and will not stop the spread and the rise of mutations. in a year or two we will be seeing covid as just another flu

[BruceVC]

56 minutes ago, teknoman2 said:

i was listening to a doctor in tv that was saying that the famous "immunity wall" is a myth when it comes to covid. vaccination created an immunity wall for measles, smallpox, polio etc, because these vaccinations are one off; you get the shot, you are safe forever and the virus can't spread. covid is like the flu (another member of the corona family) and can't be eradicated because the spread can't be stopped. the data from Israel, that has exceeded 90% vaccination, shows that 16% of vaccinated people still can get sick enough from covid to need hospitalization while the rest get infected with their symptoms being mild to none, however an asymptomatic and vaccinated person can still spread the virus to others. the vaccine is a useful tool to highly reduce the number of deaths and the number of hospitals that get overwhelmed by patients who need breathing support, but it cannot and will not stop the spread and the rise of mutations. in a year or two we will be seeing covid as just another flu

Yes I agree with most of what you say. At least we cannot stop variants with people not taking vaccines as quickly and effectively as we would like

But the main benefit from vaccines does seem to be milder  Corona symptoms and less people hospitalized 

And yes vaccinated people can spread the virus which is why you must keep wearing your mask in public places 

[Skarpen]

55 minutes ago, teknoman2 said:

in a year or two we will be seeing covid as just another flu

Doubtly. Seeing as many politicians are obsessed with "stopping the spread" and "eradicating the virus". Also all the useful Volksdeutches are starting to rally against people that got covid or people that didn't take non mandatory vaccine. This hysteria will not go away quickly and there can be some very dangerous things happening along the way. 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

Doubtly. Seeing as many politicians are obsessed with "stopping the spread" and "eradicating the virus". Also all the useful Volksdeutches are starting to rally against people that got covid or people that didn't take non mandatory vaccine. This hysteria will not go away quickly and there can be some very dangerous things happening along the way. 

Its not dangerous if governments make it mandatory for all citizens to get vaccinated, that will help a lot 

[teknoman2]

19 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Its not dangerous if governments make it mandatory for all citizens to get vaccinated, that will help a lot 

but that leads to another debate. if a government is allowed (or even cheered on) to make one medical  action mandatory who's to stop them from making others too? it sets a dangerous precedent.

[Skarpen]

What precedent? There are mandatory vaccinations already in most countries for decades. 

[BruceVC]

37 minutes ago, teknoman2 said:

but that leads to another debate. if a government is allowed (or even cheered on) to make one medical  action mandatory who's to stop them from making others too? it sets a dangerous precedent.

 

16 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

What precedent? There are mandatory vaccinations already in most countries for decades. 

So yes Skarpens response is the same as mine. We already use vaccines and countries make some of them mandatory to visit. For example to travel and work throughout Africa, like working in Nigeria, you need a yellow fever vaccine

[teknoman2]

i know that some vaccines are mandatory directly or indirectly everywhere but they all have one thing in common: they protect the overall public health. they are one off vaccines that offer complete immunity from high mortality rate diseases and prevent their spread, protecting the entire community in the process.

WHO reports say that yellow fever has an overall 7.5% mortality rate with severe cases being about 30% of patients and up to 50% of them can die. if you survive the infection or get vaccinated you gain permanent and complete immunity to the virus. same source says covid19 has an overall 0.15% mortality with severe cases being about 20% of patients and up to 15% of them can die. if you survive the infection or get vaccinated you gain temporary resistance for a random time period that depends on your age and overall health (and there is also a genetic component that affects the severity of the infection and the antibody retention time).

i had the vaccine so i'm not talking from an antivax perspective but from the reasonable doubt point of view on the mandatory part. Its an experimental vaccine that offers limited (in both time and effect) resistance to an almost innocuous disease that will still be here regardless of how many people (or how many times) are vaccinated against it, so making it mandatory is pointless as it doesn't protect the overall public health. making this vaccine mandatory is like making circumcision mandatory, you are forcing a medical procedure that has no affect on overall public health on both willing and unwilling recipients and this is why i call it a dangerous precedent.

[Gorth]

As mentioned previously (at least I think I mentioned it), the latest Honest Government Ads take on the Australian governments handling of the situation in Australia

 

[Raithe]

[teknoman2]

that comparison is the definition of apples to oranges. getting sick is something that happens every day, plane crashes is not. for 5800 people to die every day in plane crashes it would take an average of 17 planes crashing every day. planes are not a random natural occurrence like disease, they are specifically made to not crash so if 17 planes a day crashed, it would be a serious cause for concern about the competence of both the plane makers and their operators. context matters when it comes to interpreting how important a percentage is... or rather how its viewed

Edited July 31, 2021 by teknoman2

[rjshae]

The outbreak is accelerating in Florida. They reported over 21K new cases in one day; 100k in a week. For comparison, my state of Washington has had a total of 475K cases for the entire pandemic. 8,800 patients were hospitalized last week.

[BruceVC]

15 hours ago, teknoman2 said:

i know that some vaccines are mandatory directly or indirectly everywhere but they all have one thing in common: they protect the overall public health. they are one off vaccines that offer complete immunity from high mortality rate diseases and prevent their spread, protecting the entire community in the process.

WHO reports say that yellow fever has an overall 7.5% mortality rate with severe cases being about 30% of patients and up to 50% of them can die. if you survive the infection or get vaccinated you gain permanent and complete immunity to the virus. same source says covid19 has an overall 0.15% mortality with severe cases being about 20% of patients and up to 15% of them can die. if you survive the infection or get vaccinated you gain temporary resistance for a random time period that depends on your age and overall health (and there is also a genetic component that affects the severity of the infection and the antibody retention time).

i had the vaccine so i'm not talking from an antivax perspective but from the reasonable doubt point of view on the mandatory part. Its an experimental vaccine that offers limited (in both time and effect) resistance to an almost innocuous disease that will still be here regardless of how many people (or how many times) are vaccinated against it, so making it mandatory is pointless as it doesn't protect the overall public health. making this vaccine mandatory is like making circumcision mandatory, you are forcing a medical procedure that has no affect on overall public health on both willing and unwilling recipients and this is why i call it a dangerous precedent.

Again you make some good points but their is something you overlooking and maybe this has not been the focus or message from our governments but it should be 

Vaccines prevent and vastly reduce severe symptoms from the virus and this in turn prevents hospitals from being overrun with the very sick. So you take the vaccines because they not only prevent Corona but also our healthcare systems dont almost collapse under the strain of people needing hospitalization

Isnt the outcome of preventing deaths,  and not getting the virus, worth making it mandatory?

Edited August 1, 2021 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, rjshae said:

The outbreak is accelerating in Florida. They reported over 21K new cases in one day; 100k in a week. For comparison, my state of Washington has had a total of 475K cases for the entire pandemic. 8,800 patients were hospitalized last week.

I wonder how the DeSantis  " Anti-Fauci" merchandise is selling ?

[BruceVC]

15 hours ago, Gorth said:

As mentioned previously (at least I think I mentioned it), the latest Honest Government Ads take on the Australian governments handling of the situation in Australia

 

Another good video about the truth with mismanagement from the Oz government about something. It would be funny if it wasnt true

Where is the normal hottie that does these videos you normally share , she is my favorite 

[BruceVC]

https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court

Here is a really fascinating and relevant story about how in the USA the Federal government  can and has historically  mandated medical treatment like vaccines. The reality of vaccine hesitancy is something most of our countries grapple with and  in SA I wish vaccines were mandatory but we going to end up their because of variants and how they are created and spread primarily by the unvaccinated 

But in the case of the USA I was always under the impression it was unconstitutional to try to force the states to adhere to laws like " its mandatory to take the Corona vaccine "

All you need to prove once you in the SC is quoted  from the link is  below 

The Supreme Court rejected Jacobson’s argument and dealt the anti-vaccination movement a stinging loss. Writing for the majority, Justice John Marshall Harlan acknowledged the fundamental importance of personal freedom, but also recognized that “the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.”

Bottom line, there had to be some kind of real and substantial connection between the law itself and a legitimate purpose, which was the public’s health, safety and welfare,” says Anthony Sanders at the Institute for Justice.

 In most of our countries the virus is most definitely  a  " public health concern" and vaccines are the best solution to stop the spread and severe symptoms 

@Gromnir

What is your view on this type of legal argument and making vaccines mandatory ?

[Gromnir]

44 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 

@Gromnir

What is your view on this type of legal argument and making vaccines mandatory ?

have mentioned previous that mandatory vaccinations are legal in the US. is a bit tougher to legitimize at the fed level (beyond fed employees or troops,) but at the state and local there isn't any novel question o' law which might be raised to get some kinda serious chance at Court review. pre Constitution, general washington instituted a primitive kinda forced inoculation o' troops at valley forge to protect against small pox. many o' those soldiers died. nyc, just a few years ago, enforced compulsory  vaccinations, which is actual a functional step beyond mandate. we got a long history in this nation o' mandatory vaccinations even if most is unaware.

ca says no religious exemption? legal.

threat might be future outbreak as 'posed to current epidemic? legal.

chances are whatever question you raise, unless is batcrap crazy, is gonna be legal. 

the state interest in administering vaccines has been declared by the Court as reaching the level o' a "compelling governmental interest," which makes mandatory and compulsory vaccinations a veritable auto-win for government. 

have observed on these boards the irony that the current anti-vaxxer crowd, which is curiously conservative and evangelical, will need embrace a broad reading o' roe v. wade to make their legal argument fly, which particular with the current Court is a non-starter.

last year we anticipated the earliest pushback from anticipated mandatory government vaccinations would come from civilians employed at the va. the va were indeed the first fed entity which required mandatory vaccinations.  such perspicacity on the part o' Gromnir don't make us special or smart. the reality is there is nothing new or novel 'bout this situation save for the degree o' pushback from the public, which is the real issue. is NOT a legal problem. again, law says mandatory and compulsory vaccinations is Constitutional. end o' story. the real hurdles is practical and political. you got somewhere approaching 30% o' the populace which refuses to take vaccines and no amount o' science or law is gonna convince them they is being obdurate. 30% o' the country knows they got a Constitutional right to refuse vaccines. try and enforce a law with 30% o' populace, including many state governors and county sheriffs, dead set against the law is more than a little problematic. pass laws which you know will be ignored by the people you most need to embrace is not good strategy and is political unwise even if such a law could, in theory, save many lives. 

regardless, is no genuine question o' law.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 1, 2021 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Another good video about the truth with mismanagement from the Oz government about something. It would be funny if it wasnt true

Where is the normal hottie that does these videos you normally share , she is my favorite 

You could just check out their youtube channel, all the publicly available videos current and past are there

Being a Patreon backer just means getting an early preview (and support their work, so the videos keep flowing)

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Gorth said:

You could just check out their youtube channel, all the publicly available videos current and past are there

Being a Patreon backer just means getting an early preview (and support their work, so the videos keep flowing)

I must say they very well done and raise real OZ societal issues irrespective if we personally dont   believe or agree with everything said

And they always make me laugh when they make certain points...they not scared of profanity 

Edited August 1, 2021 by BruceVC

[rjshae]

On 7/31/2021 at 4:51 AM, teknoman2 said:

but that leads to another debate. if a government is allowed (or even cheered on) to make one medical  action mandatory who's to stop them from making others too? it sets a dangerous precedent.

The precedent here is that the pandemic was declared a national emergency by Trump. That allows measures to be taken that would normally be unacceptable. What's unclear to me is when does the emergency end?

[teknoman2]

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Again you make some good points but their is something you overlooking and maybe this has not been the focus or message from our governments but it should be 

Vaccines prevent and vastly reduce severe symptoms from the virus and this in turn prevents hospitals from being overrun with the very sick. So you take the vaccines because they not only prevent Corona but also our healthcare systems dont almost collapse under the strain of people needing hospitalization

Isnt the outcome of preventing deaths,  and not getting the virus, worth making it mandatory?

yes and no.

making them mandatory would increase the number of vaccinated people but at what cost to social cohesion?

the main problem with this whole situation is that governments don't have the trust of their people. given the complete inconsistency between the rules made to stop the spread of the virus and the behavior of those who make these rules (which is a blatant disregard of these rules while the rest of us are paying fines for just taking the trash out of the house without a mask on), you can imagine that any kind of trust towards the government and the "specialists" that advise the government goes out the window. especially if said specialists seem to change their mind any time the government wants to use the virus as an excuse to pass some law.

so when this same government and their "specialists" say that the vaccines are safe (vaccines that are still experimental by any medical standard) its hard to find people willing to believe a word of it... and making them mandatory is just more oil in the fire of mistrust.

oh and did they give out a list of who these specialist advisors are where you live? because here we only know that there is a committee headed by the minister of health that advises the government on what measures to take but not who's in that committee and if they are qualified.

Edited August 1, 2021 by teknoman2

[teknoman2]

5 minutes ago, rjshae said:

The precedent here is that the pandemic was declared a national emergency by Trump. That allows measures to be taken that would normally be unacceptable. What's unclear to me is when does the emergency end?

nothing is more permanent than the temporary - ancient greek proverb

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, teknoman2 said:

yes and no.

making them mandatory would increase the number of vaccinated people but at what cost to social cohesion?

the main problem with this whole situation is that governments don't have the trust of their people. given the complete inconsistency between the rules made to stop the spread of the virus and the behavior of those who make these rules (which is a blatant disregard of these rules while the rest of us are paying fines for just taking the trash out of the house without a mask on), you can imagine that any kind of trust towards the government and the "specialists" that advise the government goes out the window. especially if said specialists seem to change their mind any time the government wants to use the virus as an excuse to pass some law.

so when this same government and their "specialists" say that the vaccines are safe (vaccines that are still experimental by any medical standard) its hard to find people willing to believe a word of it... and making them mandatory is just more oil in the fire of mistrust.

oh and did they give out a list of who these specialist advisors are where you live? because here we only know that there is a committee headed by the minister of health that advises the government on what measures to take but not who's in that committee and if they are qualified.

You make some valid points about the reason for this global general vaccine hesitancy in many countries. I wish it wasnt the case but yes many citizens simply distrust their current and previous governments so you probably 100 % correct that end of the day this is more about bad leadership and the message from that bad leadership than the actual truth or science about  the message

But you know how I look at it? Because  SA has plenty of examples of corruption and mistakes from our new Democratically elected government after Apartheid ended in 1994....but also we have had real successes which is why I still live in SA and have never immigrated. The good outweighs the bad...always try to see life like that because its true

So if you think about vaccines and why they make sense, its not actually our governments telling us " take vaccines " .....its the scientific facts that we know as a civilisation that over the last 1000 years has been  used successfully. And the idea of vaccines to treat and defeat numerous diseases has been been proven and its historically irrefutable 

So we need to not think of this as what our governments are telling us....no. They just repeating a message that is globally known and has real evidence of ending pandemics 

I hope this makes sense ?

Edited August 1, 2021 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, rjshae said:

The precedent here is that the pandemic was declared a national emergency by Trump. That allows measures to be taken that would normally be unacceptable. What's unclear to me is when does the emergency end?

Good question and an honest and applicable one considering this terrible reality of the virus and how it spreads.

" When will it end ".....I deleted my original response which was basically " when we achieve about 80 % herd immunity and the eradication of the impact of the virus on our daily lives " ...because that became somehow false and unconvincing

But I do know what is true, the world historically has subdued many pandemics and or viruses over the last 200 years or so . Think about it, our anecestors lacked the understanding and usage of science we now possess yet they ended pandemics and moved on 

We will do it, that is the absolute truth because of our history and survival as mankind ......but you must just stay the course and accept this new reality for maximum of 2-4 years. Reality means mask wearing and reasonable social distancing and most of all.....taking and continuing to take the Corona vaccine   

[teknoman2]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

You make some valid points about the reason for this global general vaccine hesitancy in many countries. I wish it wasnt the case but yes many citizens simply distrust their current and previous governments so you probably 100 % correct that end of the day this is more about bad leadership and the message from that bad leadership than the actual truth or science about  the message

But you know how I look at it? Because  SA has plenty of examples of corruption and mistakes from our new Democratically elected government after Apartheid ended in 1994....but also we have had real successes which is why I still live in SA and have never immigrated. The good outweighs the bad...always try to see life like that because its true

So if you think about vaccines and why they make sense, its not actually our governments telling us " take vaccines " .....its the scientific facts that we know as a civilisation that over the last 1000 years has been  used successfully. And the idea of vaccines to treat and defeat numerous diseases has been been proven and its historically irrefutable 

So we need to not think of this as what our governments are telling us....no. They just repeating a message that is globally known and has real evidence of ending pandemics 

I hope this makes sense ?

antivaxers aside, most people who are not getting the jab are simply skeptical about its effectiveness and safety and the fact that there is not enough data about them. if you look for the measles vaccine on google you can get a list of facts. when it was made, by who, its composition, how it works, when it was tested, where, for how long, on how many people and so on. all these information are simply absent when it comes to these covid vaccines. my grandma has some allergies and asked her doctor about it and the doctor said "we have not been informed about anything when it comes to the vaccine's composition, so i can't tell you for sure if its safe". so she can't get it even if she wanted to because there is no way to know if its safe for her. 

getting vaccinated on blind faith or by being forced is not a good approach to convincing the population.