Alternative effect for "Brilliant"

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Phenomenum said:

Of course, if you go multi, some classes can't regen - Rogue for example. But i strongly opposed to add new abilities, to add some base class abilities, and to add less than rank 6-7 regen. I don't understand @MaxQuest plans to add regen on rank 4 abilities – on these levels player simply don't need resources regen (unless you plan to go for SSS DLC or Megabosses on lvl 7-10, which will be a suicide anyway).

For Rogue it maybe additional effect for Deadblows (rank 7 passive), which can refund Guile with some chance (25%, 33%, 50%) on kill ENEMY from invisibility (but keep in mind that SC can combine this with Gambit).

For Ranger we can modify Survival of the Fittest: +10 Accuracy against < 50% health targets, N% chance to restore 1 Bond with Animal Companion Crits against < 50% health targets)

 

 

In vanilla game, Single Class Fighters and Paladins are technically infinite ressource classes due to toughened Fury and Divine Retribution. (I don't count On Kill effect.)

Multi Class ones are not.

This was the reason why I added similar effect to Rogue, Ranger and Barbarian. But only to SC ones. I don't say one has to do the same but I would find very hard to justify to grant this possibility to MC rangers and rogues but not other martials.

And that wouldn't solve casters being dead weight without a Cipher. That's why I'm suggesting to provide an ability with similar effect to some other classes.

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

Because it's basically the same if we simply increase resource pool.

You say about lack of resources for certain classes – you can solve this by 2 ways: adding base effects to regenerate resources, or adding resources directly trough resource pool adjustment.

That is wrong. Because if you just give +x resources those classes they will also benefit in all other fights, not only the long ones. That indeed will influence balance considerably right from he start of the game. Especially in the early game. It's impact would be highest in the early game and lowest in the late game where you'd actually need resource replenishment more often. So that's a mechanically bad fix imo. 

But if you give them weak/occasional resource replenishment which only matters in very long fights you won't affect the balance in most of the games' encounters but only make those classes more viable for those long encounters (compared to those who already are better in prolinged fights). You'd also make them more viable for solo and some challenges.   

Edited March 1, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

35 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

So what about trinkets? Maybe items with resource regeneration effects would be better choice, than modifying abilities? 

If there would be specific trinkets for each of those classes: sure, why not? They could even com with a drawback so you would only use them when you really needed to. For example "-2 Discipline - but gain a chance to regain 1 Discipline every time X happens".

THe outcome would be the same but you wouldn't need to touch classes at all. 

I like it.

 

[Phenomenum]

6 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

But if you give them weak/occasional resource replenishment which only matters in very long fights you won't affect the balance in most of the games' encounters but only make those classes more viable for those long encounters (compared to those who already are better in prolinged fights). You'd also make them more viable for solo and some challenges.   

Oh, i can create a mod just for you, which will refund all resources for long fights - after two minutes after fight beginning [ironically].

Boeroer! Start to thinking and stop ignoring obvious facts: there are 5-7 fights in all game, which demands resource regen.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

28 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

In vanilla game, Single Class Fighters and Paladins are technically infinite ressource classes due to toughened Fury and Divine Retribution. (I don't count On Kill effect.)

I know that's not the point you're trying to make but I'll just interfere here for other readers here:

With a Paladin you can indeed cheese to infinite Zeal easily as long as you have a Chanter or Monk with you (inifinite resources + summons who can get killed). But did you every try to build around Toughened Fury? It's not that great tbh except when you're solo maybe. So an additional/occasional source of Discipline wouldn't hurt imo.

Paladin already has two sources (on kill and on ally KO) - that's why I suggested a rel. lame "get Zeal when getting knocked out" ability.

 

[Phenomenum]

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

That is wrong.

No. You just whining about lack of resources – no matter how your (personal) problem will be resolved.

[Boeroer]

3 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

Oh, i can create a mod just for you, which will refund all resources for long fights - after two minutes after fight beginning [ironically].

Boeroer! Start to thinking and stop ignoring obvious facts: there are 5-7 fights in all game, which demands resource regen.

And as soon as you play solo it's 500-700. Maybe I wasn't the one who stopped thinking and started ignoring?

[Boeroer]

9 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

No. You just whining about lack of resources – no matter how your (personal) problem will be resolved.

Of course it's wrong. And I explained in length why those two solutions don't have the same outcome.

I have no personal problem with those classes. I mostly play with a party and skip Megabosses. I'm speaking from a general game balance perspective. And it's undeniable that those classes have a disadvantage in

a) solo runs or "less than 5 pary members runs" and
b) late game content (SSS, FS, Megabosses)

because some of them can't get resources back an they end up auto-attacking for a long time which makes those fights boring and frustrating. So I'm suggesting a solution that

a) won't change the balance of the normal content but
b) improves balance in those long/late fights.

Originally this came up (@MaxQuest) so weaken the appeal of Brilliant. Because if all classes can at least get some resources back occasinally Brilliant might lose a bit of its attractiveness (was the idea).
I can't see why that's a bad thing or why you would have to get pissy about it - but I guess that's your personal problem then? You can surely disagree but please let proper arguments speak for your case, not attacks. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

13 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

And as soon as you play solo it's 500-700.

Is this solo game? U can't balance game for party and one character at one time. It's party game. If you go solo, you on your own.

And i remember the same whine about PoE 1 from you. I repeat: it's party RPG.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

Is this rethorical question?

It is not a solo game. But if you can introduce a change that doesn't make the game worse for the normal player but improves it for the ones who play late game content, megabosses and/or solo why would you oppose that? I mean if you think it's not worth the effort because not enough players would be affected then ok. But then say so. Because I can see no argument from a mechanical perspective that speaks against it. But if there are such arguments then I'd like to hear them - and not that I stopped thinking, ignore stuff or am whining. Because those attack just me but not the points I was making. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

19 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

And i remember the same whine about PoE 1 from you. I repeat: it's party RPG.

I'm pretty sure I never posted anything about PoE1 and missing resource replenishment. Especially I didn't "whine" about it. I would very much like you to stop saying that.
I don't use personal attacks in discussions which I start in good faith and I wish you wouldn't either. I does nothing for your point of view, it brings no sympathy or understanding for your cause. It just damages your reputation. What for?
If you have solid arguments then I'm all ears. I'm the last person who wouldn't give in if you made some good points. You know that. The last argument you brought up against my suggestions was that you could as well give everybody flat +resources. I explained why that's not the same and why I think that would be bad form a blance standpoint imo (of course it would be most easy). That was the last sincere attempt to discuss this. Please let's return to that state.    

Edited March 1, 2021 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

Oh whatever. I'm tired with that "give me resources" theme.

[Phenomenum]

10 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

f you have solid arguments then I'm all ears.

I've given you all solid arguments, but you prefer to ingnore.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Phenomenum

[Phenomenum]

26 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

It is not a solo game. But if you can introduce a change that doesn't make the game worse for the normal player but improves it for the ones who play late game content,

To give all classes base ability with resources refund?! No, period.

[NotDumbEnough]

I'd rather have a consumable (with a lengthy use/recovery time) that is too costly to use in every single fight, but slowly regenerates resources during combat. Not useful due to taking too long and being cost-prohibitive in small combats, but addresses the dozen or so super long fights where running out of resources can happen.

[Boeroer]

14 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

I've given you all solid arguments, but you prefer to ingnore.

Then please repeat them because I may have missed them.
 

11 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

No, period.

 That is not an argument and this is a discussion, not a petition.

[Boeroer]

6 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I'd rather have a consumable (with a lengthy use/recovery time) that is too costly to use in every single fight, but slowly regenerates resources during combat. Not useful due to taking too long and being cost-prohibitive in small combats, but addresses the dozen or so super long fights where running out of resources can happen.

Also - like the trinkets - a solution that sounds quite reasonable. Like the trinkets that solution would have the added advantage that you can kind of determine when it pops up in the game; I mean how early/late. 

[Phenomenum]

6 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Then please repeat them because I may have missed them.

Then, please, go to previous page and read them. I'm not your mother to bring every thing under your nose.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

I did - but I can't find any arguments that would counter my aforementioned points a) and b) after the ones I already addressed in length and why I think they were wrong.
 
"Might as well add resource points" - no, because that would impact the balance in the early game the most while it wouldn't do that much for the fights you actually need more resources. 

"only few fights" - that is different if you play solo and/or go to SSS/FS DLCs and/or do Moegabosses. And even if it would only be a few fights that would only be an argument in the line of "too much work for the outcome" - which I would accept. That's a valid argument (that you didn't explicitly made though) - but not one that counters the in-game mechanical benefits. 

After that it was just attacking me...
 

19 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

I'm not your mother to bring every thing under your nose.

...like so. You even edited that sentence in afterwards. Like it was a great idea to add that but you just forgot about it the first time...

I'm sorry if this discussion and the things I suggest (in the thread I opened myself just to ask what people where thinking about an anti-confusion mechanic) rile you up and you feel the need to be rude with me for reasons unknown, but...

Edited March 1, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

37 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I'd rather have a consumable (with a lengthy use/recovery time) that is too costly to use in every single fight, but slowly regenerates resources during combat. Not useful due to taking too long and being cost-prohibitive in small combats, but addresses the dozen or so super long fights where running out of resources can happen.

I just thought about this more and - wouldn't it be the easiest solution if that consumable (drug or potion maybe) would just make you... Brilliant?

I think I would settle on late-game drug? Because then it would also have a crash which would be neat, wouldn't it?

Edited March 1, 2021 by Boeroer

[Powerotti]

So every int affliction would cause crush, or just cancel inspiration and leave drugged status without any effect? Both are weird. With trinkets there's funny thing - if multiclassed, one would have to choose which class needs resource more atm and juggle them (and grimoires, if multi with wizard).

@"debate"above - too bad, that it's apparently not feasible to include any way of regenerating in separate file, for those who like it

[Boeroer]

2 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

So every int affliction would cause crush, or just cancel inspiration and leave drugged status without any effect? Both are weird.

Good point. Arcane Dampener/Cleanse etc. as well. Hm...
So maybe potion would be the better pick. And not Brilliant but something that couldn't be cleared with an affliction?

3 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

With trinkets there's funny thing - if multiclassed, one would have to choose which class needs resource more atm and juggle them (and grimoires, if multi with wizard).

Also good point(s). 

5 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

@"debate"above - too bad, that it's apparently not feasible to include any way of regenerating in separate file, for those who like it

Was that irony or is it indeed not feasible?

[Powerotti]

2 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Was that irony or is it indeed not feasible?

Not sure. Was it? 

[Phenomenum]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I did - but I can't find any arguments that would counter my aforementioned points

What points? That you can't win Megabosses with every class solo and that's that's why you need resources regen?

[Boeroer]

49 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

What points? That you can't win Megabosses with every class solo and that's that's why you need resources regen?

I didn't make that point at all.

I merely said that I think my suggestion of intruducing a rel. low chance of regaining a bit of resources right from the start as an effect that is attached to an auto-ability provided

a) unchanged balance in the normal game where you play a full party and do rel. short fights and
b) that in long fights and/or solo runs and/or late content like the DLCs SSS and FS those classes would have less of a disadvantange - ergo better balance

and also

c) that they won't cost an ability point and don't even need a separate talent - so nobody needs to feel forced to pick it, no new ability icon is needed and ability points don't get stretched thin. But that was actually before a) so c) might not be the best designation for it but whatever.

Now that's the third time I repeated at least a) and b) and hopefully you will address those claims - maybe try to point out mechanical issues that I didn't see - like others did when I suggested something but didn't think it through (which isn't a problem since this is more like a brainstorming/discussion). Don't choose rudeness or try to put words in my mouth. I don't and it would be cool if you'd return the favor.

I really don't know where this is coming from or what I wrote that I deserve such a behavior. This is leading nowhere with such a confrontative mood. If you are actually interested in convincing me - or anybody else in this thread - that my suggestions are bad: 

     

Edited March 1, 2021 by Boeroer