PoE II looking for advice on a good chanter tank build.

[langsgalgenrad]

Hello,

I played the game on PoTD for a while as monk with a party of (eder, xoti, maia and aloth) however I reinstalled my PC and forgot to take my save file >.< So I am gonna start over.

I have been looking for some advice on a nice chanter-tank build to play but cannot get my mind set on the attribute spending. On guides or videos I see people buff up mostly INT and MIGHT and then either dumping DEX or RES to buff the other.  Wouldn't dumping RES make you extremely squishy as a tank or does the high DEX make up for this? And what about PER?

So in a nutshell.

I am set on: wood-elf race,  troubadour subclass, single-class, going full party with companions (not adventurers or sidekicks)

The Idea is to be in the front able to tank en support the party with buffs.

• What would good to distribute attributes to as a tank?  Do people have some examples for me?
• What phrases/invocations go well with it?  - Should I focus on summoning ones for example?
• Should I invest in healing or let another party member take care of it?

I think I am mostly concerned about my attribute spending to be honest. A high MIGHT and INT seem clear. But I am not so sure what to do with the rest.

 

[Boeroer]

Hello, you posted this in the wrong forum. This is the subforum for PoE, you want advice for Deadfire (PoE2).

Maybe a mod like @Amentep can move this thread for you.

Tanks should max Resolve. The returns for every point of deflection are increasing and Resolve directly improves your deflection. It's the same with the other defenses, but those can be buffed more easily and also don't get attacked as often as deflection.
More about defenses and their increasing returns:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/defenses-are-increasing-returns

DEX and PER are good offensive stats but also raise Reflex. But Reflex can also be raised with Weapon & Shield Style. Also large shields have a modal named "The Wall" which reduces damage from AoE attacks (spells for example) considerably. Most of those do target Reflex. So with a large shield the defensive impact of DEX and PER are not that important because you're already covered. 

The most important defensive stat in Deadfire is armor (AR). You should try to get the highest AR possible. The potential damage reduction it gives you doesn't sound like much, but the mathematics of maluses is quite complicated and obscured - let me just tell you that it makes a massive difference whether you receive a strike that penetrates your armor or a strike that has an underpenetration of 3. If you want to know more about the math read this:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/armor-and-penetration

Summons are very strong in general. If you want to mainly call summons and/or give support via invocations you don't need high accuracy/PER. Same with healing. Only when you want to hit enemies with debuffs, damage and CC you will need higher accuracy. Passive healing like Ancient Memory is very useful, too.  

 

[Natures Bounty]

Could you tell whether it's important to you in terms of roleplay that your MC is a classic main tank? By classic main tank I mean a char that is the first to step into the way of your opponents, engage multiple foes and soak up a lot of melee damage. Because if you want that, a SC Troubadour will have quite some problems to fill this role in combat. You will lack engagement slots, HP and possibly defenses to do that, no matter what your attributes look like. In that case, I would suggest mutliclassing with fighter, or choose arcane knight, herald, etc. as your class.

If you are not set on the main tank role, a SC Troubadour is a great choice, as you can improve and buff the overall tankiness and survivability of your whole party in multiple ways and play an off-tank role. If you switch on brisk recitation, both the phrases "many lives pass by" as well as "her courage thick as steel" are very good defensively. The latter protects your party with a 10 HP damage shield every 3 seconds. There is that invocation and it's upgrade ("nor felled by the axe") that grant +4 AR to pierce, slash, fire and shock damage in a cone. It is often overlooked, but strong in many situations. As Boeroer already pointed out, AR is quite important, summons, of course, very helpful too. If you go that route with "thick as steel" or "many lives pass by", you could even dump MIG, as long as you don't focus on healing or direct damage, or scrolls. Both phrases soak a lot of any kind of damage so that you need much less healing. And instruments of death will do quite some damage anyways.

If you want to heal, I would switch off brisk recitation in order to overlap ancient memory and merci and kindness phrases. You'll cast less invocations then.

If you want to play a "lazy" MC with little micro and only basic scripts, a SC Troubadour can also dump DEX in my opinion. Just insta-summon instruments of death at the beginning of fights, and let summons and your phrases do the rest. You can auto-attack, maybe a scroll here and there (high arcana can be nice on chanters, but don't drop MIG then). 

In any case, I would say PER is more important than DEX as troubadours are not the fastest, but among the most steady casters instead. After casting an invocation, you will have to wait for phrases to fill up again anyways and your weapon damage will most likely be negligible ...so why invest into less recovery or more speed? Rather be sure to hit your opponents.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Natures Bounty

[langsgalgenrad]

 

21 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Hello, you posted this in the wrong forum. This is the subforum for PoE, you want advice for Deadfire (PoE2)

 I am really sorry I posted in the wrong forum. I thought I was on the right one but obviously not. My Apologies.

Thanks for some solid information given to me, some useful links as well. I was definitely going shield and sword style and big shields with the wall ability yes. But perhaps that is less useful If I decide a fighter be the main tank?

21 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Summons are very strong in general. If you want to mainly call summons and/or give support via invocations you don't need high accuracy/PER. Same with healing. Only when you want to hit enemies with debuffs, damage and CC you will need higher accuracy. Passive healing like Ancient Memory is very useful, too. 

I lean more towards summoning and support invocations vs the debuffing and CC part. Especially after considering playing a more off tank when reading Natures Bounty advice.

7 hours ago, Natures Bounty said:

Could you tell whether it's important to you in terms of roleplay that your MC is a classic main tank?

That was indeed the idea at first, but when reading your post playing it as the more 'off tank' sounds actually more like what I want yes. I am considering taking Eder and let him fulfill the main tank job. Just how do I make sure I keep most enemies on him so they will not switch to my main character? I mean I know there are talents to keep aggro for the fighter but will they be enough?

The "lazy" MC you describe is absolutely not my aim.

Edited January 7, 2021 by langsgalgenrad

[Boeroer]

12 minutes ago, langsgalgenrad said:

 I am really sorry I posted in the wrong forum. I thought I was on the right one but obviously not. My Apologies.

Hey no worries! I didn't want to chastise you but just inform you. The thread got moved to the Deadfire forums nearly instantly by Amentep (the moderator I tagged) - so everything is nice and shiny.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Boeroer

[Natures Bounty]

With Eder as main tank, you should be fine. I'm on a playthrough with Eder as main tank SC fighter, SC troubadour off-tank with versatility plus 3 casters. Works very well on potd. Medium shield should suffice for your chanter, you lose quite a bit of accuracy with large shields and the medium shield modal is quite good, too. Eder wears two-handed weapons like willbreaker btw. Refreshing defense plus the recovery passive are usually enough alongside situational party heals to keep him alive, wearing medium armor. But that's mainly true from mid- to endgame. In the early game, you might need more armor, a shield, etc.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Natures Bounty

[Boeroer]

I nearly always use Edér as main tank (Swashbuckler or Fighter doesn't matter) and it works. He isn't the most effective tank -  but with a second "off tank" like your Troub you will certainly be fine.

[thelee]

funnily enough i feel like the game was balanced around players picking eder as a fighter or atleast a swashbuckler. my current run is almost certainly the first time i ever picked eder as a pure rogue, and between eder as a rogue and my mainchar as a caster with no healing, the sea cave became like the hardest part of the game   definitely had to recruit tankier help in port maje.

Edited January 8, 2021 by thelee

[langsgalgenrad]

Well OK, Eder as main tank and my MC the off tank decided to focus on summons and support.

How would MI 14, CON 10, DEX 10, PER 8, INT 18,  RES 17 be? Better to switch something around?

[langsgalgenrad]

19 hours ago, langsgalgenrad said:

Well OK, Eder as main tank and my MC the off tank decided to focus on summons and support.

How would MI 14, CON 10, DEX 10, PER 8, INT 18,  RES 17 be? Better to switch something around?

Anyone?

[Raven Darkholme]

Well, you know my opinion from our conversation on youtube.

I don't like putting points in res, my current chanter has 3 base res but because of a lot of passive buffs still a 17.

I would personally put in perception instead, her revenge swept ... is one of the most op skills in the entire game, while summons are situationally awesome but not something you can amke use of every fight.

[Boeroer]

On 1/8/2021 at 7:13 PM, langsgalgenrad said:

Well OK, Eder as main tank and my MC the off tank decided to focus on summons and support.

How would MI 14, CON 10, DEX 10, PER 8, INT 18,  RES 17 be? Better to switch something around?

Would be good for your purpose.

[langsgalgenrad]

2 hours ago, Raven Darkholme said:

Well, you know my opinion from our conversation on youtube.

I don't like putting points in res, my current chanter has 3 base res but because of a lot of passive buffs still a 17.

I would personally put in perception instead, her revenge swept ... is one of the most op skills in the entire game, while summons are situationally awesome but not something you can amke use of every fight.

Oh I did not seen your reaction there yet. Thanks ^^

Hmm that does mean I have to take - Thrice Was She Wronged, and Thrice Justly Avenged first right? Cause it is an upgrade from that one I believe? So that means no skeletons or do you pick those later or not at all?

Also thanks for the input other people! I am gonna throw myself into it

Edited January 9, 2021 by langsgalgenrad

[Raven Darkholme]

4 hours ago, langsgalgenrad said:

Oh I did not seen your reaction there yet. Thanks ^^

Hmm that does mean I have to take - Thrice Was She Wronged, and Thrice Justly Avenged first right? Cause it is an upgrade from that one I believe? So that means no skeletons or do you pick those later or not at all?

Also thanks for the input other people! I am gonna throw myself into it

Yes you have to take the first one before you can get the upgrade.

Skeleton's are not that good, they do fulfill some purposes for certain niche builds, but I personally don't pick them up.

[Natures Bounty]

I don't agree on the summons part here, at least not generally. The early level summons are quite bad indeed, and I wouldn't take the skellies either. However, mid- to high-level summons are very strong and will make a difference in almost every fight. It's more about the question whether you like playing with summons, not whether they are powerful.

Thrice was she wronged and its upgrade are very strong in the early game, but I feel it becomes less and less useful the farther you progress. You can't spec out of it, if you select it at char creation. So I would select Hel Hyraf at char creation, pick up thrice was she wronged as soon as you lvl up, later on spec out.

Concerning attributes, I think that you can't go wrong with maxing INT, leaving RES, CON and DEX at 10, put rest into PER and MIG depending on whether you focus on debuffs (PER over MIG) or damage ans healing (MIG over PER). If you play with summons, you don't need as mich deflection, and as a chanter you have access to all 6 inspiration types or affliction immunities that allow to counter every single affliction type (at least theoretically, you could be e.g. paralyzed before being able to counter that, of course). You don't need more than 10 RES, imo.

[Raven Darkholme]

1 hour ago, Natures Bounty said:

I don't agree on the summons part here, at least not generally. The early level summons are quite bad indeed, and I wouldn't take the skellies either. However, mid- to high-level summons are very strong and will make a difference in almost every fight. It's more about the question whether you like playing with summons, not whether they are powerful.

Thrice was she wronged and its upgrade are very strong in the early game, but I feel it becomes less and less useful the farther you progress. You can't spec out of it, if you select it at char creation. So I would select Hel Hyraf at char creation, pick up thrice was she wronged as soon as you lvl up, later on spec out.

Concerning attributes, I think that you can't go wrong with maxing INT, leaving RES, CON and DEX at 10, put rest into PER and MIG depending on whether you focus on debuffs (PER over MIG) or damage ans healing (MIG over PER). If you play with summons, you don't need as mich deflection, and as a chanter you have access to all 6 inspiration types or affliction immunities that allow to counter every single affliction type (at least theoretically, you could be e.g. paralyzed before being able to counter that, of course). You don't need more than 10 RES, imo.

I never said all summons are bad (just in case that was directed at me) and I meant the skellies specifically.

The upgrade for thrice was she wronged is not only good  early game only, it is insanely powerful at any stage of the game.

Unless I need more Aoe coverage from the higher level invocations I always use her revenge.

It hits 4 or 5 times per enemy so the damage is actually not that different from the higher level ones, but it takes a lot less phrases which in many situations is quite useful.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Raven Darkholme

[Boeroer]

Given PL scaling a good early damaging ability like "Thrice..." can't really become weak in the late game, can it? I mean besides immunity issues which should not be a problem in this case. 

I think Skeletons are underrated. They do very poor damage in most cases and especially in the later game because while their stats do scale their weapons (poor swords) do not - which leads to severe underpenetration very quickly. Thus they hit like wet noodles.

But they have engagement slots! Thus they can be seen as a steerable/controllable CC effect: they will reliably stop enemies from approaching (if you didn't opt out of movement cancellation on engagement in the game options menu), block melees and present cannon fodder for ranged enemies, too. And if they die they will at least provide two replacements (which are not controllable but still). 

You just shouldn't look at them as damaging tools. They are very bad in that regard. 

If I would play a dedicated tank who focuses on soaking damage and do support I wouldn't raise PER and I wouldn't use Thrice wSW or any offensive invocation. Summons can be a good substitute to direct CC (skeletons engage, whisps are great interrupters with unlimited knockdown uses) and damaging (wyrms, later animated weapons etc.) invocations without the need for any investment into accuracy and PER. 

Thrice wSW is a really good invocation but I don't think it's a mandatory pick - especially not for a supportive, non-aggressive tank. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Given PL scaling a good early damaging ability like "Thrice..." can't really become weak in the late game, can it? I mean besides immunity issues which should not be a problem in this case. 

I think Skeletons are underrated. They do very poor damage in most cases and especially in the later game because while their stats do scale their weapons (poor swords) do not - which leads to severe underpenetration very quickly. Thus they hit like wet noodles.

But they have engagement slots! Thus they can be seen as a steerable/controllable CC effect: they will reliably stop enemies from approaching (if you didn't opt out of movement cancellation on engagement in the game options menu), block melees and present cannon fodder for ranged enemies, too. And if they die they will at least provide two replacements (which are not controllable but still). 

You just shouldn't look at them as damaging tools. They are very bad in that regard. 

If I would play a dedicated tank who focuses on soaking damage and do support I wouldn't raise PER and I wouldn't use Thrice wSW or any offensive invocation. Summons can be a good substitute to direct CC (skeletons engage, whisps are great interrupters with unlimited knockdown uses) and damaging (wyrms, later animated weapons etc.) invocations without the need for any investment into accuracy and PER. 

Thrice wSW is a really good invocation but I don't think it's a mandatory pick - especially not for a supportive, non-aggressive tank. 

Yes it is the scaling that makes it equal to all other invocations damagewise, only the Aoe is inferior (but very often that won't matter).

You are right about the way you can use skellies and it is all about how one wants to play their chanter ofc.

The op asked specifically for a tank chanter, so I can see how my replies might seem out of place.

My personal opinon and playstyle is just to squeeze a little bit more out of a character and a tank that can also kill (but still fulfill their tank role) benefits more in my opinion, because what is dead cannot kill you.

[Boeroer]

That would be my personal approach, too. Because I find real turtles pretty boring (even though they can be very effective in a party).
But given the directions and requirements the OP provided I wouldn't go that route in this case. 

The only gripe I would have with mostly using summons is that they take a long time to deploy due to their casting times - and it doesn't help if you have low DEX, too. As the tank you really have to watch out to not get interrupted while summoning. The window of opportunity for the enemies to hit you with an interruping ability is very big. 

So maybe get some layers of concentration or even wear Rekvu's Fractured Casque + injury.  

[langsgalgenrad]

I have been following the discussion with great interest so far. Thanks guys.

Since I do take Eder as the main tank, I think I can be a bit more 'adventurous' with my chanter

And yes I agree getting interrupted while trying to do a strong summon would be a pain in the butt.

Got a good general idea of it now, time to try some stuff out ^^

[Natures Bounty]

Ok, my statement was imprecise. I was thinking of an off-tank troubadour who uses summons. In such a case, summons plus your main tank will most likely stand closer the the horde of enemies than the chanter. E.g. in my current playthrough with such a chanter, I just don't hit enough foes with "thrice was she wronged" that it feels overwhelming. But I can see that it's like a lightning festival if you're standing at the very frontline and manage to get maximum usage out of the aoe cone. 

Sure, there is such a thing as PL-scaling, yet in the case described above, my subjective impression is that the summons and casts on the higher AL are  often (not always) more effective than the invocations on lower levels, despite PL scaling, even if you adjust for phrase cost. It depends a lot on your playstyle of course. Inronically, two of the three Lvl 1 invocations that I find most effective throughout the whole game are Hel-Hyraf and Not felled by the axe, although their effects on AR do not scale with PL (the third being the thunder rolled, mainly because it debuffs fortitude but targets reflex, but its effect is more situational).

I don't see summons as a damage dealers either. They are a tool of controlling the fight, buying time, soaking damage and a whole lot of other things like doing damage. 

And as I said, the main question is whether you want to play with summons or not. Experienced players will tend to find that boring. But it's difficult to deny that it's also effective.

If you're the off-tank, choose the concentration passive (plus maybe summoning passive) and initiate the fight with a different character, not the chanter, interrupts won't be a problem despite the high casting times.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Natures Bounty

[langsgalgenrad]

Oh one last thing.. Anyone has an idea if Xoti any good as a Contemplative?

Edited January 10, 2021 by langsgalgenrad

[Boeroer]

I find Xoti's Monk subclass very limiting. Also there's not much synergy. For example a Sister of the Reaping Moon gets +3 wounds when she downs an enemy - but only if she does so with a melee weapon. So killing and enemy with the pretty awesome "Blessed Harvest" spell of the Harvester of Gaun doesn't count and won't give you +3 wounds. That is not cool. High level Priests d have some awesome dmg spells so the synergy could have been great - but he "melee weapon only" restriction destroys that.
I can see her being cool as SC Monk if you plan to make her your main damage dealer or kill-stealer - because with Whispers of the Wind you can kill pretty nicely (Inner Death doesn't give wounds on kill iirc because it's not a weapon attacks - it should work with Community Patch though). But then I'd have to get a hireling Priest and I try to avoid hirelings - so I almost always use her as SC Priest.

[Raven Darkholme]

3 hours ago, Natures Bounty said:

Ok, my statement was imprecise. I was thinking of an off-tank troubadour who uses summons. In such a case, summons plus your main tank will most likely stand closer the the horde of enemies than the chanter. E.g. in my current playthrough with such a chanter, I just don't hit enough foes with "thrice was she wronged" that it feels overwhelming. But I can see that it's like a lightning festival if you're standing at the very frontline and manage to get maximum usage out of the aoe cone. 

Sure, there is such a thing as PL-scaling, yet in the case described above, my subjective impression is that the summons and casts on the higher AL are  often (not always) more effective than the invocations on lower levels, despite PL scaling, even if you adjust for phrase cost. It depends a lot on your playstyle of course. Inronically, two of the three Lvl 1 invocations that I find most effective throughout the whole game are Hel-Hyraf and Not felled by the axe, although their effects on AR do not scale with PL (the third being the thunder rolled, mainly because it debuffs fortitude but targets reflex, but its effect is more situational).

I don't see summons as a damage dealers either. They are a tool of controlling the fight, buying time, soaking damage and a whole lot of other things like doing damage. 

And as I said, the main question is whether you want to play with summons or not. Experienced players will tend to find that boring. But it's difficult to deny that it's also effective.

If you're the off-tank, choose the concentration passive (plus maybe summoning passive) and initiate the fight with a different character, not the chanter, interrupts won't be a problem despite the high casting times.

Sadly summons do not scale very well with PL at all.

You can make the summoned wepons decent enough with upgraded shield cracks and the pen pet.

 

[Boeroer]

Eh - Animated Weapons are powerful, not just "decent enough".  You shouldn't use auto-attacks with summons whenever possible - because their attack abilities DO scale. Best example is the Dragon summon whose auto-attacks are bad but whose attack abilities (breath and tail lash) are pretty good because of "internal" PL scaling (I mean the PL of the Dragon, not the summoner).  

Most summons do not scale well - some however do. Not with the summoner's Power Level but with the character level.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Boeroer