Is it worthwhile to cast damage spells as a multi-class caster?

[AndreaColombo]

How does the Takedown Combo + Disintegration thing work, exactly?

 

I’m planning a Ghost Heart / Ascendant build for my next playthrough and I don’t think I’ve included any of those abilities in my prospective ability tree.

[Boeroer]

25 minutes ago, AndreaColombo said:

How does the Takedown Combo + Disintegration thing work, exactly?

• Takedown Combo puts a "hostile" effect with a duration on the enemy.
• The next damaging attack roll that hits the enemy then gets +100% dmg.
• The effect gets removed immediately after.
• BUT: it only gets removed by direct dmg attacks (including pulsing stuff like Chillfog or Venombloom), NOT pure DoTs
• That means that while Takedown Combo is active you can hit the enemy with any pure DoT that does no initial direct dmg (so stuff like Touch of Rot or Necrotic Lance are out - Soul Ignition, Concelhaut's Corrosive Skin and Disintegration or even Plague of Insects etc. are in) the DoT-ticks will all get +100% dmg because Takedown Combo will NOT get removed by them. Disintegrate-ticks with +100% dmg are impressive. You can stack multiple DoTs like Disintegrate + Soul Ingnition, they all get +100% per tick.
• You DON'T want to hit the enemy with any direct dmg after you applied the DoT because that would remove Takedown Combo at once. You certainly don't need that.
• Once the duration of Takedown Combo runs out the effect vanishes and leaves the DoT ticks with the usual dmg. 
• You can also cast Disintegrate first and then use Takedown Combo. The remaining ticks will profit. This also means you could use Necrotic Lance if you apply Takedown Combo AFTER the initial direct dmg was rolled and only the DoT part remains. Hard to time but possible.
• On top of that: Charmed enemies usually flip back if you damage them. But if you hit them with a pure DoT like Disintegration they will not flip back. And you can cast Disintegr. on a friendly (Charmed) target.
• So my Stalker/Beguiler routine was: 1. cast Secret Horrors on lots of enemies to gain focus for Disintegration and to lower fortitude and will. 2. hit with Morning Star to lower fortitude. 3. hit with Takedown Combo (targets fortitude), 4. hit with Disintegrate (often crits because low fort. and high ACC) 5. hit with Whisper of Treason oreven Ring Leader. It was then a Charmed enemy that had a build-in self destruct. 
• You can totally leave out 1, 2 and 5 and you can flip 3 and 4. Sometimes it's better to leave out Whisper of Treason or Ring Leader because hits from the enemies on the charmed dude result in Takedown Combo's removal. Meh. However, I still used WoT frequently because I also had a Debonaire/Wizard in the party (100% hit to crit with spells on a "Ring" yo! )

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

Great stuff, thanks @Boeroer!

[dgray62]

Yes, definitely great stuff. I have played an archer ghostheart/ ascendant seer before, but I personally prefer playing melee characters for my MC. Playing a melee stalker/beguiler wielding Willbreaker sounds like fun. The only problem is I love having Konstanten as a Willbreaker wielding Howler in my parties. I never tried a debonaire spellblade before, but that sounds like a great combo with a beguiler.

[Boeroer]

The good thing is that Takedown Combo and Disintegrate can be cast nearly simultaneously because they don't come from the same caster. Else I would recommend using a Ranger for TDC and another Cipher for Disintegrate - but since TDC is done by the Animal Companion there is no problem with action economy.

Speaking of Disintegrate: Debonaire/Wizard is cool if you have somebody else to charm crowds for AoE-crits - but he can't charm himself besides kith. If the char should be more self-contained (the char himself can charm) then Debonaire/Cipher also works very well: you charm an enemy and then cast Disintegrate. 100% crit conversion for Disintegrate is also very good because of the +50% duration. Basically the same outcome as Forbidden Fist/Cipher with Enfeeble+Disintegrate.

Very devastating combo and total overkill in most cases:

Forbidden Fist enfeebles, AC does Takedown Combo, Cipher casts Whisper of Treason (or some Chanter uses the charming invocation), another Debonaire/Cipher casts Disintegrate. All timed to hit nearly simultaneously. You'll get a Disintegrate with +100% duration and +100% dmg. Not worth the hassle imo but quite hilarious. 

I didn't try but I suspect that a Debonaire/Druid could cast a Plague of Insects or Insect Swarm on a bunch of charmed enemies without flipping them back to hostile but getting +50% duration from the crits. 

 

[Boeroer]

By the way: Debonaire/Soulblade is a char that can almost guarantee a crit-kill with Sungrazer, triggering Extinction Event reliably which is very potent and will fill the focus up right after.

[AndreaColombo]

8 hours ago, dgray62 said:

I have played an archer ghostheart/ ascendant seer before, but I personally prefer playing melee characters for my MC.

Me too. The Ghost Heart / Ascendant build I’m planning is full-on melee.

[Tetsu]

So can reach very high Accuracy with Ghost Heart / Ascendant:

Accuracy:

20 Start
57 Level
25 Perception
10 Nature's Resolve
 2 Sagani
 5 Helm
 5 Amulet (vessels)
 3 Gloves
 5 Potion/Drugs
10 Marked Prey
10 Stalker's Link
10 Survival of the Fittest (only <50% health targets)
20 Borrowed Instinct
20 Hunter's Fang (vessels)
10 Accurate Empower
10 The Empty Soul (vs Will)
 5 Pet
---
172(vs all) to 227 Accuracy (max)

Debuffs:

Deflection:

-10 Recall Agony
 -5 Secret Horrors (Frightened)
-10 Eyestrike (Flanked)
-10 Silent Scream (stunned)
-10 Pikes Modal (not worth)
---
-45

Fortitude:

-10 Secret Horrors/Fractured Volition
-10 Mind Plague
-25 Morningstars
---
-45

Reflex:

-16 Borrowed Instinct
-10 Eyestrike (Blinded)
-10 Mental Binding (Paralyzed)
-10 Silent Scream (Stunned, only with Community Patch)
-25 Flails modal
---
-71 Reflex

Will:
-16 Borrowed Instinct
-20 Recall Agony
-10 Secret Horrors (Frightened)
-10 Mind Plague (Confused)
-25 Club modal
-15 The Willbreaker (5 stacks)
---
-96 Will

So you can reach an accuracy about:

217-272 vs Fortitude
243-298 vs Reflex
278-323 vs Will

So 100% Crit vs all enemies including Megabosses.

[Tetsu]

Also I've seen maybe a bug with Fractured Volition in Polishing Mod. For some reason Enfleebled stays for an infinite duration. So hit 100% Crit with very high accuracy and Enfeebled you always have +145% Duration (50% Enfeebled + 50% Crit + 45% Resolve) with flat 10 Int, with 30 int you will have +245% Duration (+ Power level of the Spells). So then about +300% Duration and +100% Damage (Takedown combo). SC Ascendant don't have Takedown combo but can do triple the damage with out it.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Tetsu said:

Also I've seen maybe a bug with Fractured Volition in Polishing Mod. For some reason Enfleebled stays for an infinite duration. So hit 100% Crit with very high accuracy and Enfeebled you always have +145% Duration (50% Enfeebled + 50% Crit + 45% Resolve) with flat 10 Int, with 30 int you will have +245% Duration (+ Power level of the Spells). So then about +300% Duration and +100% Damage (Takedown combo). SC Ascendant don't have Takedown combo but can do triple the damage with out it.

Bug confirmed. Thank you for pointing it.
Here is the hotfix, if you want to try it.
Would be included in next version.

I unduly duplicated Heart Seeker Enfeeble ID, so the status was common between the 2 abilities. Since both Heart Seeker and Fractured Volition had the same duration, I didn't spot it while testing Fractured Volition.
Then, later, I modded Heart Seeker Duration to Infinite...

cl.cipher.fractured_volition.gamedatabundle

Edited November 8, 2020 by Elric Galad

[dgray62]

10 hours ago, Boeroer said:

By the way: Debonaire/Soulblade is a char that can almost guarantee a crit-kill with Sungrazer, triggering Extinction Event reliably which is very potent and will fill the focus up right after.

That's an interesting idea. So you charm the enemy, and then crit it with Sungrazer, triggering extinction event if you kill it, right? Would it work better if you charmed a group with ringleader, then crit kill one of them, so that extinction event crits the rest?

[dgray62]

9 hours ago, AndreaColombo said:

Me too. The Ghost Heart / Ascendant build I’m planning is full-on melee.

AndreaColumbo, how would you build your melee oriented ghost heart/ascendant? Clearly you want high INT, as well as decent DEX, INT and STR, but I feel like I can't dump CON and RES completely on a melee character. Using the Howling Blade would be nice to keep enemies dazed, if you're lucky and proc the random encounter to get it early. Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome.

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, dgray62 said:

That's an interesting idea. So you charm the enemy, and then crit it with Sungrazer, triggering extinction event if you kill it, right? Would it work better if you charmed a group with ringleader, then crit kill one of them, so that extinction event crits the rest?

No, because Extinction Event is foe-only.  And if it had firendly fire I would get no focus because you don't get focus from hitting/critting allies.

I charm the enemy with Whisper of Treason and then use Soul Annihilation (which not only gets the bonus from Sneak Attack and Deathblows but also the crit) which will often kill an enemy right away. Since you don't get focus from hitting charmed enemies but Soul Annihilaion doesn't generate focus anyway but instead dumps it this is no loss. 
As alternative you can of course use stuff like Devastatig Blow and such to end foes with a crit. If the foe is surrounded by other enemies and Extinction Event triggers you'll get pretty good focus from it.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Boeroer

[dgray62]

Thanks for the clarification, Boeroer. I haven't yet used Sungrazer so I didn't realize that extinction event was foe-only. That makes it even better, IMO. So I gather that crit kills with soul annihilation while wielding Sungrazer will trigger extinction event? It's basically a primary attack with the raw lash from soul annihilation, right?

[Boeroer]

Soul Annihilation is a primary attack that does normal physical damage but also dumps all focus you have into additional raw damage. The raw dmg part also profits from Sneak Attack, Deathblows, crit etc. and can reach very high numbers. The higher your focus the better of course.

Extinction Event will trigger every time you kill a foe with a crit from Sungrazer (the ability you use doesn't matter).

[AndreaColombo]

2 hours ago, dgray62 said:

how would you build your melee oriented ghost heart/ascendant?

I don't want nor need high INT on a melee Seer; MIG, DEX, and PER is where it's at. I always have the Briliant + SoT combo at the ready in my every party, so I don't need INT to extend my buffs—and since my Seer is primarily designed for melee weapon attacks, I don't need high INT to extend debuffs either (besides, in Ascended state—which can be made to last for an entire fight with Brilliant + SoT—you can dish out debuffs like they were raining from the sky.)

[dgray62]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Soul Annihilation is a primary attack that does normal physical damage but also dumps all focus you have into additional raw damage. The raw dmg part also profits from Sneak Attack, Deathblows, crit etc. and can reach very high numbers. The higher your focus the better of course.

Extinction Event will trigger every time you kill a foe with a crit from Sungrazer (the ability you use doesn't matter).

Thanks, Boeroer. I plan on trying this build with Sungrazer.

Edited November 8, 2020 by dgray62

[dgray62]

2 hours ago, AndreaColombo said:

I don't want nor need high INT on a melee Seer; MIG, DEX, and PER is where it's at. I always have the Brilliant + SoT combo at the ready in my every party, so I don't need INT to extend my buffs—and since my Seer is primarily designed for melee weapon attacks, I don't need high INT to extend debuffs either (besides, in Ascended state—which can be made to last for an entire fight with Brilliant + SoT—you can dish out debuffs like they were raining from the sky.)

So you would want to have a party of at least three-another cipher (for mutual casts of Ancestral Memory) and a Priest, right?

Edited November 8, 2020 by dgray62

[Boeroer]

7 hours ago, dgray62 said:

Thanks, Boeroer. I plan on trying this build with Sungrazer.

Keep in mind that Debonaire is a bit tricky in melee because of the missing engagement (so no Persistent Distraction) and his passive that makes the Debonaire weaker when no friends are around. I just tried this combo out for a bit to see if it works - I didn't do a playthrough with a whole char concept so I can't say how fun/unfun it is as a real build.

[AndreaColombo]

7 hours ago, dgray62 said:

So you would want to have a party of at least three-another cipher (for mutual casts of Ancestral Memory) and a Priest, right?

A Priest is enough, as I don’t need Brilliant on the Seer. I always run parties of 5, though. My Seer will be running around with Aloth, Xoti, Maia, and Pallegina. I expect some interesting pillow fights among the girls, except without the pillows and with a lot more verbal abuse

[dgray62]

13 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Keep in mind that Debonaire is a bit tricky in melee because of the missing engagement (so no Persistent Distraction) and his passive that makes the Debonaire weaker when no friends are around. I just tried this combo out for a bit to see if it works - I didn't do a playthrough with a whole char concept so I can't say how fun/unfun it is as a real build.

Yes, I tried the Debonaire yesterday, but didn't make it further than the Sea Caves. The Cowardice effect was much harsher than I anticipated. I didn't have to get very far from Eder to have it kick in. -10 ACC and DEF hurts a lot on PotD! I'm sure it would be easier to manage with a full party.

[dgray62]

13 hours ago, AndreaColombo said:

A Priest is enough, as I don’t need Brilliant on the Seer. I always run parties of 5, though. My Seer will be running around with Aloth, Xoti, Maia, and Pallegina. I expect some interesting pillow fights among the girls, except without the pillows and with a lot more verbal abuse

That makes sense. The priest extends Ascended with SoT, and the cipher returns the favor with Ancestral Memory, allowing the priest to recast it endlessly. Thanks!