combat Improving the combat system

[Gearhart]

Ok, so I know in an interview the dev director acknowledged that the current combat system isn't very immersive. However, the solution the devs are taking -tweaking the arthropod attack patterns to seem less robotic- doesn't, in my opinion, address the root of the combat system's issues. From my experience, the reason melee combat currently feels so mechanical and unimmersive is tied to the blocking system, not the insect attack patterns. In my understanding of arthropods (which was confirmed by peers more familiar with entomology), the mandibles are not only used for biting, but also for grabbing onto things. When arthropods bite something, they clamp down on it and don't let go. We can observe this by observing worker ants and gnats carrying around nectar and honeydew in their jaws in the game.

What does this have to do with the blocking system? Well, currently the blocking system works by having you hold your weapon sideways, seemingly to deflect the attack. The animation for blocking doesn't even make sense, as if you were trying to block this way, the more sensible technique would be to hold it in a manner so that the shaft of the weapon crosses you, so that you can hold onto it with both hands to better brace yourself against the impact. However, even if the animation did follow this principal, it wouldn't change the fundamental flaw in this method of defense; you're essentially holding your weapon in a way that practically invites the attacking arthropod to grab hold of it in their mandibles and either crush it or rip it away from you, leaving you defenseless. The only way this would make any sense would be if the blocking system is meant to work around the principle from whacking them right before they bite you, but if that was the case then why not just have a well timed attack with your weapon instead?

Now, not only is this system not immersive, but because it's so mechanical its not something that players will instinctively think to do, which means that many players won't think to do it, especially against arthropods that are larger than you. Unfortunately, the only solution I can see to this problem would be to replace the block system entirely. Change secondary fire to do a quick sideswipe attack that can knock around enemies. This would make the system feel less mechanical, but introduces a new problem; arthropods with enough mass, which would be anything larger than a soldier ant or larva, won't be as easily countered by this. This would make fighting them much more challenging. This wouldn't have a negative impact on immersion, as players would expect fighting a larger arthropod would be more dangerous than fighting a smaller one, but could make the game significantly harder, especially in singleplayer.

Fortunately, I have a solution to this as well; the implementation of the ultimate melee weapon; a versatile tool that dominated hunting parties and battlefields for the majority of human history. I'm talking about the elegant, yet humble, spear.

"But wait a minute," I hear you asking, "aren't spears already in the game?" While it is true that one-handed throwing spears are already in the game, that type of spear wasn't actually a melee weapon; it was a ranged one. I'm talking about proper, 2-handed melee spears that were longer than the wielder is tall.

This more prevalent type of spear was the most commonly used weapon for most of human history for several very important reasons. The first and most obvious reason is its reach; which enabled you to thrust and attack your opponent while keeping your body out of harm's way.

Furthermore, the elegant design of the spear allowed it to simultaneously attack and defend. This is due to the pointy end of the spear serving as a physical obstacle your enemy would have to deal with before they can close the distance. Simply brushing aside the spear isn't an easy task, as not only is the end of the spear weighted to give it more resistance to a change in motion, but most of its length lay between the wielder and the target, serving as a lever favoring the wielder, who can move the pointy end further with only slight repositioning of their hands. This can be reflected in the game by giving the spear a physical hitbox that arthropods collide with, not only being damaged by it, but also being pushed back by it. Perhaps an impaling mechanic can even be added, with the damage increasing the further the spear penetrates into the target. Of course, the full intricacies of polearm combat would take time to be implemented, but with this game being in it's early stages of development, there is plenty of time for such a system to be fleshed out.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Gearhart
added images

[YaBoyJenkins]

25 minutes ago, Gearhart said:

What does this have to do with the blocking system? Well, currently the blocking system works by having you hold your weapon sideways, seemingly to deflect the attack. The animation for blocking doesn't even make sense, as if you were trying to block this way, the more sensible technique would be to hold it in a manner so that the shaft of the weapon crosses you, so that you can hold onto it with both hands to better brace yourself against the impact. However, even if the animation did follow this principal, it wouldn't change the fundamental flaw in this method of defense; you're essentially holding your weapon in a way that practically invites the attacking arthropod to grab hold of it in their mandibles and either crush it or rip it away from you, leaving you defenseless. The only way this would make any sense would be if the blocking system is meant to work around the principle from whacking them right before they bite you, but if that was the case then why not just have a well timed attack with your weapon instead?

Now, not only is this system not immersive, but because it's so mechanical its not something that players will instinctively think to do, which means that many players won't think to do it, especially against arthropods that are larger than you. Unfortunately, the only solution I can see to this problem would be to replace the block system entirely. Change secondary fire to do a quick sideswipe attack that can knock around enemies. This would make the system feel less mechanical, but introduces a new problem; arthropods with enough mass, which would be anything larger than a soldier ant or larva, won't be as easily countered by this. This would make fighting them much more challenging. This wouldn't have a negative impact on immersion, as players would expect fighting a larger arthropod would be more dangerous than fighting a smaller one, but could make the game significantly harder, especially in singleplayer.

I agree with you. I don't think blocking should be a thing unless you have a shield (which would be super cool tool to add into the game.) I also think bugs should have more unique, deadlier attacks so that combat does seem less robotic and more immersive. These are some good ideas!

[Gearhart]

Something I forgot to mention is that long spears would also make combating tougher enemies seem less daunting, which can be good for arachnophobes in particular. There's a certain comfort in carrying a big stick that can keep monsters at bay.

Speaking of keeping things at bay, it would be interesting if certain creatures were repelled by torches; not necessarily to the extent that they won't attack, but to the extent they'll change to a more "hit and run" tactic, striking from the shadows and retreating back into them. Wolf spiders, for instance, have very sensitive eyes; likely a result of their nocturnal habits.

[McSquirl Nugget]

1 hour ago, YaBoyJenkins said:

I agree with you. I don't think blocking should be a thing unless you have a shield (which would be super cool tool to add into the game.) I also think bugs should have more unique, deadlier attacks so that combat does seem less robotic and more immersive. These are some good ideas!

So all the knights and dark ages warriors that fought without shields couldn't block any attacks?  that sure makes sense.

 you can block with any weapon.  Blocking with a weapon is called a parry.

2 hours ago, Gearhart said:

TL;DR

It's as immersive as you make it.  If you just want to sit and block and attack and repeat then go for it.  or you can do like I like to do (and others i've played with) and dance around the bugs and dodge their attacks.

I think you're making a mountain out of an anthill  

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by McSquirl Nugget

[YaBoyJenkins]

4 hours ago, McSquirl Nugget said:

So all the knights and dark ages warriors that fought without shields couldn't block any attacks?  that sure makes sense.

 you can block with any weapon.  Blocking with a weapon is called a parry.

Sure, it would be fine if we held up our weapon with perfect timing and were able to take the edge off of a bug's blow, but we don't do that. Instead, we can hold up our weapon for a decent period of time and pretty much survive every attack. I personally think it would be cool if we could make shields and they would actually serve a purpose. Maybe we could even get swords that we could use the hilts and blades of to parry (like what medieval warriors did.) I just don't see how holding up a thin mint mallet can go from making the wolf spider's bite a one- hit kill to making it perfectly survivable with decent enough armor.

[Gnith]

As someone that has experience and training fighting with a spear .... 
I love this .... 
and there is a HUGE difference in style, fighting with the tiny pointy stick they call a spear ... 
and fighting with a 16 ft Pike .... 

Give me a 12-16 ft Pike any day over the pointy stick.

[MoniTheMelone]

Hmm, personally I have an opinion you may not agree with, these are children surviving in a backyard. I think the combat should be according to the ability of an every day child and not an experienced martial arts fighter. No offense to anyone, I personally love MMA and I used to do judo and karate. However, I think the beauty of this game is the originality in that these are kids fighting and they are trying their best with what they have at hand. You need to approach the fighting objective from the perspective of how would a kid go about it. They have way different thought processes. And I think they should be involved with creating this game more. Personally, I think placed in this situation the defense and fighting is exactly what it would look like, you struggle blocking, you reach out way too far while attacking, and do not hold the objects perfectly. Maybe a compromise could be that the kids can upgrade their fighting ability as they become more experienced or learn from BURGL. Or maybe the kids could have different abilities from the start up and one of them is a little MMA specialist. Kindly, MoniTheMelon.

Edited September 19, 2020 by MoniTheMelone

[Gearhart]

28 minutes ago, MoniTheMelone said:

Hmm, personally I have an opinion you may not agree with, these are children surviving in a backyard. I think the combat should be according to the ability of an every day child and not an experienced martial arts fighter. No offense to anyone, I personally love MMA and I used to do judo and karate. However, I think the beauty of this game is the originality in that these are kids fighting and they are trying their best with what they have at hand. You need to approach the fighting objective from the perspective of how would a kid go about it. They have way different thought processes. And I think they should be involved with creating this game more. Personally, I think placed in this situation the defense and fighting is exactly what it would look like, you struggle blocking, you reach out way too far while attacking, and do not hold the objects perfectly. Maybe a compromise could be that the kids can upgrade their fighting ability as they become more experienced or learn from BURGL. Or maybe the kids could have different abilities from the start up and one of them is a little MMA specialist. Kindly, MoniTheMelon.

I don't see what choice of weaponry has to do with fighting capability. Nor do I see how trying to knock an attacking insect to the side instead of trying to block it head-on is in any way comparable to martial arts.
Plus, the long melee spear is one of the oldest weapons made, which not only makes it's common usage well into the modern era all the more impressive, but also tells us that it doesn't take a genius craftsman to make one.

[Gnith]

 

21 minutes ago, Gearhart said:

I don't see what choice of weaponry has to do with fighting capability. Nor do I see how trying to knock an attacking insect to the side instead of trying to block it head-on is in any way comparable to martial arts.
Plus, the long melee spear is one of the oldest weapons made, which not only makes it's common usage well into the modern era all the more impressive, but also tells us that it doesn't take a genius craftsman to make one.

for the size ... the only thing that we're "knocking to the side" is a Yard Mite .... 
that's NOT going happen, nor is it a child or young martial arts students first reaction .... 
the first instinctual reaction is TO DODGE ... to get out of the way, not to stand there and try and "take it" ... that's a Trained Reaction
Blocking is a natural reaction with a weapon. Tho instinctually with no training ... most people are pretty bad at it. 

The "Perfect Block" thing exists almost exclusively in gaming ... 
in actual fighting .... performing a perfect block in order to stun or even damage the attacker ... is an extremely high end skill
in most weapon fighting .... you're in a blocking stance pretty much the ENTIRE TIME except when you're attacking .. 
which is also completely natural and instinctive ....  to keep the weapon as best as possible between you and your opponent

Which is what the spear and long spear are all about .... Distance
learning to Manage Distance is one of the earliest and most important lessons in weapon training
and everyone has their own Comfort Zone ...
most people prefer a bit of distance ... some people like it real up close and personal
but that's fighting other people ... not giant bugs ... 
when fighting something completely unknown ... almost everyone tends to like a bit more distance than normal

[Gearhart]

2 hours ago, Gnith said:

 

for the size ... the only thing that we're "knocking to the side" is a Yard Mite .... 
that's NOT going happen, nor is it a child or young martial arts students first reaction .... 
the first instinctual reaction is TO DODGE ... to get out of the way, not to stand there and try and "take it" ... that's a Trained Reaction
Blocking is a natural reaction with a weapon. Tho instinctually with no training ... most people are pretty bad at it. 

The "Perfect Block" thing exists almost exclusively in gaming ... 
in actual fighting .... performing a perfect block in order to stun or even damage the attacker ... is an extremely high end skill
in most weapon fighting .... you're in a blocking stance pretty much the ENTIRE TIME except when you're attacking .. 
which is also completely natural and instinctive ....  to keep the weapon as best as possible between you and your opponent

Which is what the spear and long spear are all about .... Distance
learning to Manage Distance is one of the earliest and most important lessons in weapon training
and everyone has their own Comfort Zone ...
most people prefer a bit of distance ... some people like it real up close and personal
but that's fighting other people ... not giant bugs ... 
when fighting something completely unknown ... almost everyone tends to like a bit more distance than normal

Ok... I mean, the principal of hitting something from an angle to push it aside seems pretty straightforward to me, and seems like something that would be a lot less complicated to pull off than a "perfect block." As for it not happening, there's a certain American sport that revolves around the principle of redirecting an incoming object by striking it the right way with a weapon. I'm talking, of course, about baseball. This technique would translate really well in melee combat, and is a skill that the teenagers would believably have, as baseball is a common backyard game in the US.

As for dodging, while in the real world this is a valuable and commonplace strategy, in a videogame it's limited by factors such as hitboxes, how well the hit detection syncs up to the visible animations, and of course lag.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Gearhart
rephrasing

[Gearhart]

23 hours ago, McSquirl Nugget said:

So all the knights and dark ages warriors that fought without shields couldn't block any attacks?  that sure makes sense.

 you can block with any weapon.  Blocking with a weapon is called a parry.

It's as immersive as you make it.  If you just want to sit and block and attack and repeat then go for it.  or you can do like I like to do (and others i've played with) and dance around the bugs and dodge their attacks.

I think you're making a mountain out of an anthill  

 

knights in the dark ages fought against people fighting with melee weapons, not powerful mandibles specifically designed to latch onto things. Also, a parry is not the same thing as blocking; a parry redirects the path of the opponents blade by hitting it at an intersecting angle.

As for dancing around and dodging bugs, dodging is less effective in videogames than in real life due to the limitations imposed by hitboxes, hitreg, and lag.

[mdf25]

I think bugs need attacks to deal with the skirting around which trigger randomly, but not always. Currently their attack animation continues even though you step aside. Something to cosider is that all bugs have only 1 weak spot that may not be the side or back, where they either can't hurt you if that's where you are, or you deal critical damage to them. 

Ladybug: Trying to go behind it, it will rapidly spin and knock into you, stunning you. Its weak spot is on its back between the crack of its shell, where it cannot harm you but will try to shake you off. Poking this area with a spear causes critical damage.

Wolf spider: Trying to go behind it will make it jump to the side and turn to face you again, possibly squashing you as it lands. Its weak point is a club or hammer to its eye which will stun it temporarily sometimes and stop its attack cycle. Since the wolf spider is so large, even a perfect block won't prevent damage and the only true way to block is to time your attacks to theirs and smack their eyes to break their attack first.

Stinkbug: Running behind it causes the bug to sometimes gas immediately without chargeup. It will sometimes hover to crush you if you keep trying to sidestep it, but that is also its weak spot, its belly. A hammer to the belly region as it tries to land will repel it, and sometimes stun it.

Soldier ant: Their weak spot is their behind, but they will ram you as you try to go around them sometimes to stun you. Jumping over them is the better strategy.

Orbweaver: if you run behind it, they will shoot webbing and proceed to bite you in rapid succession, not stopping even if blocked. Their weak point like the wolf spider is their eyes, but hammering its legs can cause them to slow down and give you time to sidestep before they attack.

Bombardier beetle: If you get behind them they will spray boiling liquid at you, and trying to sidestep will make them rapidly rotate and spray in a circle around them. Their weak spot is that shooting point though, so smacking the gland with a hammer or club will temporarily disable it from shooting. The best thing is to get on its back gland so it can't angle it to hit you.

[Gearhart]

19 hours ago, mdf25 said:

I think bugs need attacks to deal with the skirting around which trigger randomly, but not always. Currently their attack animation continues even though you step aside. Something to cosider is that all bugs have only 1 weak spot that may not be the side or back, where they either can't hurt you if that's where you are, or you deal critical damage to them. 

Ladybug: Trying to go behind it, it will rapidly spin and knock into you, stunning you. Its weak spot is on its back between the crack of its shell, where it cannot harm you but will try to shake you off. Poking this area with a spear causes critical damage.

Wolf spider: Trying to go behind it will make it jump to the side and turn to face you again, possibly squashing you as it lands. Its weak point is a club or hammer to its eye which will stun it temporarily sometimes and stop its attack cycle. Since the wolf spider is so large, even a perfect block won't prevent damage and the only true way to block is to time your attacks to theirs and smack their eyes to break their attack first.

Stinkbug: Running behind it causes the bug to sometimes gas immediately without chargeup. It will sometimes hover to crush you if you keep trying to sidestep it, but that is also its weak spot, its belly. A hammer to the belly region as it tries to land will repel it, and sometimes stun it.

Soldier ant: Their weak spot is their behind, but they will ram you as you try to go around them sometimes to stun you. Jumping over them is the better strategy.

Orbweaver: if you run behind it, they will shoot webbing and proceed to bite you in rapid succession, not stopping even if blocked. Their weak point like the wolf spider is their eyes, but hammering its legs can cause them to slow down and give you time to sidestep before they attack.

Bombardier beetle: If you get behind them they will spray boiling liquid at you, and trying to sidestep will make them rapidly rotate and spray in a circle around them. Their weak spot is that shooting point though, so smacking the gland with a hammer or club will temporarily disable it from shooting. The best thing is to get on its back gland so it can't angle it to hit you.

I believe ladybugs would also be weak in their bellies and would hover. Of course, IRL ladybugs also emit a foul odor as a defense mechanism (though this is squirted out in liquid form rather than gas), and their bright red wings warn vision-based predators that they aren't a good meal, which should carry over to ladybug armor.

Another combat strategy that would be particularly useful against beetle types would be flipping them onto their backs, immobilizing them and exposing their weaker underbellies. I'm not sure how this would work in-game; maybe if they rear up to do a stomp attack you could hit them with a spear or rock to knock them back.

[Rohan]

Flat out, I don't believe the combat needs fixing at this stage of development.  

[McSquirl Nugget]

14 hours ago, Rohan said:

Flat out, I don't believe the combat needs fixing at this stage of development.  

Exactly my opinion

On 9/19/2020 at 12:35 PM, Gearhart said:

knights in the dark ages fought against people fighting with melee weapons, not powerful mandibles specifically designed to latch onto things. Also, a parry is not the same thing as blocking; a parry redirects the path of the opponents blade by hitting it at an intersecting angle.

As for dancing around and dodging bugs, dodging is less effective in videogames than in real life due to the limitations imposed by hitboxes, hitreg, and lag.

you keep forgetting the fact this is a game, NOT real life, and is more fantasy based than reality, which is how it should stay.

 

On 9/19/2020 at 8:19 AM, MoniTheMelone said:

Hmm, personally I have an opinion you may not agree with, these are children surviving in a backyard. I think the combat should be according to the ability of an every day child and not an experienced martial arts fighter. No offense to anyone, I personally love MMA and I used to do judo and karate. However, I think the beauty of this game is the originality in that these are kids fighting and they are trying their best with what they have at hand. You need to approach the fighting objective from the perspective of how would a kid go about it. They have way different thought processes. And I think they should be involved with creating this game more. Personally, I think placed in this situation the defense and fighting is exactly what it would look like, you struggle blocking, you reach out way too far while attacking, and do not hold the objects perfectly. Maybe a compromise could be that the kids can upgrade their fighting ability as they become more experienced or learn from BURGL. Or maybe the kids could have different abilities from the start up and one of them is a little MMA specialist. Kindly, MoniTheMelon.

This sums it up best.

[Gearhart]

5 hours ago, McSquirl Nugget said:

you keep forgetting the fact this is a game, NOT real life, and is more fantasy based than reality, which is how it should stay.

The last sentence of my quote literally explains the difference between how something works in real life and how it works in a videogame.  Also, this game is NOT fantasy based; it's science fiction based. It isn't set in Middle Earth or Wonderland or a galaxy far far away, it takes place in a suburban backyard. A setting, mind you, that anyone living in a suburban home in a temperate region and didn't spend the majority of their childhood indoors would be familiar with. Making up whatever BS you want isn't going to fly here because it's already established to take place in a world vastly similar to our own.

 

As for the thing you quoted saying it sums thing up best, that has absolutely no bearing on my argument for proposed combat changes, as an American teen is less likely to be familiar with the concept of a well timed block (which doesn't even make sense when you're trying to use it against something several times your size), and more likely to be familiar with the concept of swinging a stick to hit something coming at them. This is because of a certain American sport commonly practiced by youth called "Baseball;" I'm sure you've heard of it, seeing as one of the first things you see in the game is a baseball. Anyways, in case you are unfamiliar with the sport, Baseball revolves under the principle of hitting an incoming projectile with a stick in order to knock it away from you. Effective swing techniques in baseball is swinging in a sweeping arc in order maximize the surface area of the swing and get an angle that deflects the projectile a significant difference. This exact technique translates really well into knocking the head of a soldier ant out of the way as it lunges at you. No martial arts training required, just a fight or flight instinct set to "fight."

Edited September 21, 2020 by Gearhart
removing personal attack

[Amentep]

We ask that the users of this board treat one another with respect, even when opinions differ.  It is possible to have a fundamental disagreement on these forums without attacking one another personally.  Please stick to arguing facts and not motivations or through processes of other posters.  Thank you.

[YaBoyJenkins]

Dang you guys fought so much a global moderator showed up 

[Gearhart]

On 9/18/2020 at 3:02 PM, McSquirl Nugget said:

It's as immersive as you make it.  If you just want to sit and block and attack and repeat then go for it.  or you can do like I like to do (and others i've played with) and dance around the bugs and dodge their attacks.

I think you're making a mountain out of an anthill  

 

Actually, the devs are updating the AI to reduce the effectiveness of circle strafing, so dancing around the bugs to dodge their attacks won't be a viable strategy for long. Why the devs decided to nerf an intuitive and immersive strategy that requires gamesense, positioning, timing, and coordination, rather than the unintuitive and unimmersive strategy that only requires timing, is beyond me.

[Gearhart]

You know, I learned a lot more about how spear combat work, and I'll have to edit my main post tomorrow to more accurately reflect actual spear combat and what teenagers with no former fighting experience would realistically be capable of (the short length of the pebblet spear actually does make sense, as longer spears are more difficult to wield with one hand, for example). I'll probably do that tomorrow. But for today, I gave some more thought to the combat system, and came up with a better way to rework it;

 

First of all, charged attacks shouldn't auto-deploy after a set period of time; you should be able to hold your swing/stab in for as long as you want. Except with bows, because holding a bow in draw position takes effort. Also, a well times thrust of a spear should put a halt to most charge attacks, as well as deal significant damage as their own momentum works against them.

Secondly, the block button should also be something you hold down to prepare. The animation could have you hold your weapon at a downward angle to your left. Releasing would swing your weapon at an upward angle to the right, uppercutting the enemy. This would more realistically deflect their attacks while still being a timing game. In fact, this would add another level of strategy to the game. This wouldn't stop charging attacks, but it would do damage in addition to knocking the enemy back.

The hold down and release mechanic would also introduce a fun "baseball" game you could play with a friend, a pebblet, and a club.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Gearhart

[YaBoyJenkins]

On 10/2/2020 at 8:42 PM, Gearhart said:

You know, I learned a lot more about how spear combat work, and I'll have to edit my main post tomorrow to more accurately reflect actual spear combat and what teenagers with no former fighting experience would realistically be capable of (the short length of the pebblet spear actually does make sense, as longer spears are more difficult to wield with one hand, for example). I'll probably do that tomorrow. But for today, I gave some more thought to the combat system, and came up with a better way to rework it;

 

First of all, charged attacks shouldn't auto-deploy after a set period of time; you should be able to hold your swing/stab in for as long as you want. Except with bows, because holding a bow in draw position takes effort. Also, a well times thrust of a spear should put a halt to most charge attacks, as well as deal significant damage as their own momentum works against them.

Secondly, the block button should also be something you hold down to prepare. The animation could have you hold your weapon at a downward angle to your left. Releasing would swing your weapon at an upward angle to the right, uppercutting the enemy. This would more realistically deflect their attacks while still being a timing game. In fact, this would add another level of strategy to the game. This wouldn't stop charging attacks, but it would do damage in addition to knocking the enemy back.

The hold down and release mechanic would also introduce a fun "baseball" game you could play with a friend, a pebblet, and a club.

I agree. I much rather like the idea of deflecting or hitting the attack away with a well timed block instead of just standing there and taking it. 

[Gearhart]

On 10/4/2020 at 2:43 AM, YaBoyJenkins said:

I agree. I much rather like the idea of deflecting or hitting the attack away with a well timed block instead of just standing there and taking it. 

I like the idea of deflecting/hitting an attack away as well, but I don't think that can really be called "blocking." That's why the current block system makes no sense to me; if it's supposed to be a well-timed parry, why does it give you the option of holding it down? There's no visual indicator indicating that the block system is meant for this purpose; it would make far more sense for the timing aspect to be tied to the release of the block button, with a visual push animation to communicate that this is meant to deflect something.