Bugs Runaway & Recover HP

[RobbySaturn]

Can we have bugs that aggro longer or don't runaway & get their health back? As an archer trying to fight bugs by keeping my distance it gets quite irritating when an insect full recovers every few moments. For example, running around a shrub while a ladybug tries to ram you is effective, until they lose aggro and fully recover. This game isnt archer/long distance friendly if everytime the player walks a few CM away the insect gets full health. Why not just have a hurt bug keep its hurt health????

[McSquirl Nugget]

My thoughts on this -

• Agro range should be at least doubled for those players that don't want to put the beat down on the bug with a club or mallet or whatever. 
• If the bug gets stuck and can't advance it should break agro and regain all health as it does now.  Keep the terrain exploits out of there. 
• If you're fighting said bug and die, there should be a timer that starts to allow you to get back to the bug and continue the fight.  the bug should sloowly regain some health during your run back. 
• If the timer expires, before you can get back to the bug, c'est la vie, the bug gets full health back. 

[DoctorChimera]

I'm seconding this feedback. Bugs recover far too quickly. In games where your enemies are much stronger than you, it's important to be able to wear them down and fight smart, especially when playing alone. The game as it is seems to be designed to force you to fight all enemies head-on , but many of them are just too strong to do that.

 

 It's especially frustrating dealing with more than one ant, where it becomes an endless cycle of damaging an ant enough for it to run away, not being able to chase it due to the others, the first ant coming back when the you're still fighting the rest, etc. What should be a feasible number of weak enemies, like 3 ants, becomes a slog. 

 

Simply leaving the bug with the damage its taken is the best option. 

[RobbySaturn]

52 minutes ago, McSquirl Nugget said:

My thoughts on this -

• Agro range should be at least doubled for those players that don't want to put the beat down on the bug with a club or mallet or whatever. 
• If the bug gets stuck and can't advance it should break agro and regain all health as it does now.  Keep the terrain exploits out of there. 
• If you're fighting said bug and die, there should be a timer that starts to allow you to get back to the bug and continue the fight.  the bug should sloowly regain some health during your run back. 
• If the timer expires, before you can get back to the bug, c'est la vie, the bug gets full health back. 

Depends what you consider a terrain exploit. If I'm an archer and want to shoot something from a branch or somewhere I built, the bug shouldn't just walk away like nothing happened. At least give the bug like 10 seconds to try and find me/10 seconds for me to get another shot off before the bug wonders off again. 

If I'm sitting on a shrub or something only twice the height of a ladybug, it shouldn't just walk away after getting shot. Considering if you get rammed it's pretty much instakill. I have the mint mallet & I'm aware of how to use it however as I've progressed I enjoy archery more because it seems more realistic. If I was a child and death was real I would adapt to archery instead of trying to tank spiders or ladybugs/anything bigger than an ant.

I've discovered that running in a circle with a bow will still be effective in killing a ladybug. But I still feel like building an archer tower should work effectively and not be considered an exploit but instead a strategy. Bows should have increase aggro range and this also applies to close combat users too. If you run 10 cm away to recover health you shouldn't lose all the damage you did to the insect.

[Sylvia Rose]

I'll throw my 2 cents in here.

One one hand: It is realistic for a bug to immediately run away from something it can't reach. Bugs rely on pure instinct, and they wouldn't survive if they just stood there and took hits for no reason. 

On the other hand: This realistic approach to bug intellect is really annoying when trying to shoot bugs because if you use the terrain to run around them, you will most likely aggro ANOTHER bug and die. Or else if you use the high ground they just run away, like you've said above.

Personally I think this could be solved (a bit) by allowing you to "lock on" to a certain bug while attacking with a bow in order to allow you to focus on running around.

However, if the developer made bugs ACTUALLY realistic in the sense of their terrain movement, there would be no choice but to face-tank them all, because there's no reason these bugs shouldn't be able to crawl up walls and rocks. Yes, that would make them MUCH scarier and harder to deal with, but that's how bugs work. Spiders in particular should be able to get you unless you are floating in the air. (Plus, if then you could actually hit flying bugs with a bow! I'm sure there will be some things like mosquitos and wasps that will be impossible to shoot otherwise.)

Now, if you want to build an archer tower, that's great. Go for it! That's your prerogative on how to play the game! However, bug A.I. should be designed to gain aggro on structures you are standing on to try to get you to come down. Yes, that would mean all your hard work building something could be gone when a spider breaks your tower trying to get its meal, but hey, bugs are aggressive and unforgiving. That's just bugs. BUT this also gives you a reason to build your structures out of clay and such so its much harder to be knocked down and give you a reason to use the repair tool.

 

EDIT: As a sidenote, once you learn how to circle-strafe an enemy and properly time your blocks (almost never needed, really) you can fight literally every bug in melee with ease. Ladybugs never hit me once. Orb-weaver spiders are a complete joke. Ants? Nah, just keep swinging. Wolf spiders can be tougher because their attack animations include pauses which make you second-guess what they will do, but otherwise function just like an orb-weaver. Honestly, the biggest challenge is bombardier beetles because they can shoot the acid glob fast and very accurately (and often times right on top of themselves so you must wait to melee them).

Edited September 2, 2020 by Sylvia Rose
Melee notes

[RobbySaturn]

5 hours ago, Sylvia Rose said:

I'll throw my 2 cents in here.

One one hand: It is realistic for a bug to immediately run away from something it can't reach. Bugs rely on pure instinct, and they wouldn't survive if they just stood there and took hits for no reason. 

On the other hand: This realistic approach to bug intellect is really annoying when trying to shoot bugs because if you use the terrain to run around them, you will most likely aggro ANOTHER bug and die. Or else if you use the high ground they just run away, like you've said above.

Personally I think this could be solved (a bit) by allowing you to "lock on" to a certain bug while attacking with a bow in order to allow you to focus on running around.

However, if the developer made bugs ACTUALLY realistic in the sense of their terrain movement, there would be no choice but to face-tank them all, because there's no reason these bugs shouldn't be able to crawl up walls and rocks. Yes, that would make them MUCH scarier and harder to deal with, but that's how bugs work. Spiders in particular should be able to get you unless you are floating in the air. (Plus, if then you could actually hit flying bugs with a bow! I'm sure there will be some things like mosquitos and wasps that will be impossible to shoot otherwise.)

Now, if you want to build an archer tower, that's great. Go for it! That's your prerogative on how to play the game! However, bug A.I. should be designed to gain aggro on structures you are standing on to try to get you to come down. Yes, that would mean all your hard work building something could be gone when a spider breaks your tower trying to get its meal, but hey, bugs are aggressive and unforgiving. That's just bugs. BUT this also gives you a reason to build your structures out of clay and such so its much harder to be knocked down and give you a reason to use the repair tool.

 

EDIT: As a sidenote, once you learn how to circle-strafe an enemy and properly time your blocks (almost never needed, really) you can fight literally every bug in melee with ease. Ladybugs never hit me once. Orb-weaver spiders are a complete joke. Ants? Nah, just keep swinging. Wolf spiders can be tougher because their attack animations include pauses which make you second-guess what they will do, but otherwise function just like an orb-weaver. Honestly, the biggest challenge is bombardier beetles because they can shoot the acid glob fast and very accurately (and often times right on top of themselves so you must wait to melee them).

If the bugs were realistic, then they would keep the damage given to them despite losing aggro. I also want bugs to be realistic even if that means losing aggro if they can't reach me. Sadly the whole point of this article isn't really about aggro. It's about bugs regaining health right after you shot 13 arrows with a grade 2 bow because you moved 8 cm away from them or because they lost their line of sight and lost their aggro. I dont care if they lose aggro and run 50 cm away, as long as I can still find them and finish them off because they maintained the damage from before. Having a bug magically regain all of its health just makes this feel like a game and less of a survival scenario where you got shrunk down and have to survive off of mushrooms, water droplets, and whatever you can craft from bug parts. I want this game to be more realistic which is why it's so important that a bug doesnt just magically regain its health because it lost its line of sight or you moved 1 too many cm away.

Edited September 3, 2020 by RobbySaturn

[Sylvia Rose]

6 minutes ago, RobbySaturn said:

If the bugs were realistic, than they would keep the damage given to them despite losing aggro. I also want bugs to be realistic even if that means losing aggro if they can't reach me. Sadly the whole point of this article isn't really about aggro. It's about bugs regaining health right after you shot 13 arrows with a grade 2 bow because you moved 8 cm away from them or because they lost their line of sight and lost their aggro. I dont care if they lose aggro and run 50 cm away, as long as I can still find them and finish them off because the maintained the damage from before. Having a bug magically regain all of its health just makes this feel like a game and less of a survival scenario where you got shrunk down and have to survive off of mushrooms, water droplets, and whatever you can craft from bug parts. I want this game to be more realistic which is why it's so important that a bug doesnt just magically regain its health because it lost its line of sight or you moved 1 too many cm away.

I agree they shouldn't fully heal instantly, but I think the developers are trying to "de-cheese" combat like this. One combat method seems to negate the other.

Either combat stays as it, and melee is the way to go, or they change it and ranged becomes the way to go, because why risk going in close when you don't have to literally ever?

I'm not sure there's a great solution here...

[Daedro]

I rarely use bows for combat but instant bug recovery is part of the reason for this. The other is that I just prefer to go in to risk a head-on attack. All bugs should recover health slowly regardless of your distance from them (even if it was set at a rate that would fill a full health bar in 5 - 10 minutes, it would give time for people to get back to a fight). 

5 hours ago, Sylvia Rose said:

Either combat stays as it, and melee is the way to go, or they change it and ranged becomes the way to go, because why risk going in close when you don't have to literally ever?

I don't really think there's necessary an issue with the combat as it currently is. There is an advantage and disadvantage to both. Either you choose ranged to stay at a safe distance and not risk death but it comes at the disadvantage of being a slower method. The opposite is true for melee, (fast/risky). You just never encounter the bug recovery issue as a problem during melee. I would just like the option to use whichever combat method is best suited without the frustration of having to worry about 'is this going to be a waste of time' when pulling out the bow. Even if the ladybugs flew a short distance away during combat, it would be fun to hunt them. You just couldn't implement any type of bug combat reactions, such as fleeing when weak (jumping/running,flying), before a patch on recovery times. 

[Sylvia Rose]

The way I do combat currently is, depending on the bug, an opening salvo of venom arrows. I can usually get 2 off before the bug is in my face (usually a spider). Then I swap to a 2-handed melee (mint mallet) and circle-strafe up against the bug in 3rd person.  Being against your enemy gives you a smaller circle to strafe in, making your movements more time/cost effective. You get less strafe when you are further away. I only block when I see the bug start its attack animation, and even then its only a quick tap to get that perfect block (since it partially stuns the enemy).

I guess when you look at it that way, things are working as intended. Its more of a skirmish tactic than "choose your fighting style" ala D&D. It would be cool to be able to use bows in a larger capacity... (I use it more for knocking down berries than fighting) but for the moment I personally think combat is okay.

But I still agree bugs should have a longer healing timer. Don't instant-heal, because we as players don't get to instant heal just because we got bored and de-aggro'd. LOL.

[McSquirl Nugget]

1 hour ago, Sylvia Rose said:

The way I do combat currently is, depending on the bug, an opening salvo of venom arrows. I can usually get 2 off before the bug is in my face (usually a spider). Then I swap to a 2-handed melee (mint mallet) and circle-strafe up against the bug in 3rd person.  Being against your enemy gives you a smaller circle to strafe in, making your movements more time/cost effective. You get less strafe when you are further away. I only block when I see the bug start its attack animation, and even then its only a quick tap to get that perfect block (since it partially stuns the enemy).

I guess when you look at it that way, things are working as intended. Its more of a skirmish tactic than "choose your fighting style" ala D&D. It would be cool to be able to use bows in a larger capacity... (I use it more for knocking down berries than fighting) but for the moment I personally think combat is okay.

But I still agree bugs should have a longer healing timer. Don't instant-heal, because we as players don't get to instant heal just because we got bored and de-aggro'd. LOL.

that's how i battle as well.  open with arrows to bring them where i want to fight, then melee with the larvae dagger, ant club, or mint mallet, depending on the bug.

I agree on the slow health regen, at least for a time.  but if it's like i used to do with wolf spiders and try once or twice then say nah and go do something else,  that spider should get full health back when i go do that something else,  thus the timer for regen.

11 hours ago, RobbySaturn said:

Having a bug magically regain all of its health just makes this feel like a game and less of a survival scenario where you got shrunk down and have to survive off of mushrooms, water droplets, and whatever you can craft from bug parts. I want this game to be more realistic which is why it's so important that a bug doesnt just magically regain its health because it lost its line of sight or you moved 1 too many cm away.

It's a fantasy survival sim/arcade game.  it shouldn't be realistic.  Some realism is needed but it needs to remain more of the game than the sim.

[JayCHTan]

After all of the replies above, I just hope the Dev gets the idea and improve this ASAP.

At the very least, Keep everything the same (for now) and only decrease (If not completely remove, not that we can easily find the injured bug) the regen time. 

[Andrew Meyer]

On 9/2/2020 at 2:25 PM, RobbySaturn said:

Can we have bugs that aggro longer or don't runaway & get their health back? As an archer trying to fight bugs by keeping my distance it gets quite irritating when an insect full recovers every few moments. For example, running around a shrub while a ladybug tries to ram you is effective, until they lose aggro and fully recover. This game isnt archer/long distance friendly if everytime the player walks a few CM away the insect gets full health. Why not just have a hurt bug keep its hurt health????

especially wolf spiders those things suck when you're in solo. I haft to get in a high place and shoot a bow and arrow  and make sure that they back up in to a corner they can't back out of 

[McSquirl Nugget]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Meyer said:

especially wolf spiders those things suck when you're in solo. I haft to get in a high place and shoot a bow and arrow  and make sure that they back up in to a corner they can't back out of 

you need lady bug armor, and to learn their attacks.  They're super easy to melee with on medium, i can't see that they'd even be a challenge on Mild.  block them then wait for them to rear back and do one of their attacks,  when they rear back side step and attack, rinse and repeat.  that's all there is to it.  they're easier than lady bugs and bombardiers.

[Andrew Meyer]

19 minutes ago, McSquirl Nugget said:

you need lady bug armor, and to learn their attacks.  They're super easy to melee with on medium, i can't see that they'd even be a challenge on Mild.  block them then wait for them to rear back and do one of their attacks,  when they rear back side step and attack, rinse and repeat.  that's all there is to it.  they're easier than lady bugs and bombardiers.

yes I do under stand that and I have done all the things you have said but I run in solo a lot and if you run in to a wolf spider with lady bug armor you still take a butt lode of damage and its the first strike dose not kill you the venom will ( this is talking like if you mess up once )

[McSquirl Nugget]

2 hours ago, Andrew Meyer said:

yes I do under stand that and I have done all the things you have said but I run in solo a lot and if you run in to a wolf spider with lady bug armor you still take a butt lode of damage and its the first strike dose not kill you the venom will ( this is talking like if you mess up once )

we must be playing a different game then.  i just started a new game on medium for the new patch (took forever to load previous game and i didn't want to spend my whole lunch time waiting) and with clover leaf armor and the pebble spear i killed the wolf spider under the oak tree.  Just like i posted above.  watch and circle, almost painfully simple.

[Andrew Meyer]

1 hour ago, McSquirl Nugget said:

we must be playing a different game then.  i just started a new game on medium for the new patch (took forever to load previous game and i didn't want to spend my whole lunch time waiting) and with clover leaf armor and the pebble spear i killed the wolf spider under the oak tree.  Just like i posted above.  watch and circle, almost painfully simple.

well good for you I play on xbox so you must pc

so you must have better timing with perfect blocking I'm not judging the way you play I'm just telling my part of my exsperences

But back to the topic every big bug dose regenorate they're health when they run away it kinda sucks when you got them more than haft they're health gone it kinda sucks that when they run away all that work you did is now lost it just gets irritating. 

[McSquirl Nugget]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Meyer said:

well good for you I play on xbox so you must pc

so you must have better timing with perfect blocking I'm not judging the way you play I'm just telling my part of my exsperences

But back to the topic every big bug dose regenorate they're health when they run away it kinda sucks when you got them more than haft they're health gone it kinda sucks that when they run away all that work you did is now lost it just gets irritating. 

relax man  no need to get defensive,  just having a conversation here.

I'm on xbox also.

It does suck they regen like that.  Thus the suggestions we're proposing.  If you have a different view on how it should be, share with us, the more ideas we can present then hopefully the devs will come up with solution to benefit the majority.  i'd say all but you can never please everyone  

[Andrew Meyer]

7 minutes ago, McSquirl Nugget said:

i'd say all but you can never please everyone  

true 

[Gnith]

I definitely agree there NEEDS to be improvements to the enjoyment of Archery Combat ... 
Fighting with a bow is a completely experience, and should be treated as such.
It shouldn't be just to pop a quick shot off at something to force it to charge you ... 

Archery is about Hunting, Stalking, being smarter than your prey.

There's nothing about hitting something in the face with a Mallet that says "Being Smarter Than Your Prey".
That's all about having a bigger Mallet.

also .... I would really love if bugs kept their damage for a bit so that when an area becomes over populated ...
I can lob in a Gas Arrow, wait till it runs out and lob another .... till the population is more in check.

[DoctorChimera]

15 hours ago, Gnith said:

Archery is about Hunting, Stalking, being smarter than your prey.

 I feel Gnith has hit the nail on the head perfectly here. To me, all hunting is about being smarter not stronger. Having a good plan, using terrain, stalking prey and using their weaknesses against them is what humans do. The game itself recommends you trust your instincts, but when the game world acts counter intuitively you can’t. If I had to hunt a spider ten times my size, my instincts wouldn’t be to charge it with a hammer and dance through its legs. It would be to arrange circumstances in my favour and use all the resources at my disposal.    Increasing bug mobility so you have to put more thought into what terrain to use, but leaving them with damage taken would make more sense to me. No longer would you be able to hop on the closest pebble and become invulnerable to all harm, but building a platform or climbing a tree root and landing shots to tenderise an opponent, following them around and wearing them down would be possible. Much more intuitive, improves ranged combat and doesn’t effect melee combatants who would be going to to toe anyway. 🕷  

Edited September 6, 2020 by DoctorChimera