Speech skills

[Madscientist]

Just to be sure: You can insult villagers until they attack so you can kill them without being a wanted criminal. I have not tested if you can kill guards this way without being a criminal. Its been ages since I played Morrowind.

[Anthonyrex]

I'm not a huge fan of skill checks in dialogue at all. If there's a dialogue option that requires some specific knowledge for instance, there should be an option to actually find that information in the game, not some general Lore skill or whatnot.

[Wormerine]

1 hour ago, Anthonyrex said:

I'm not a huge fan of skill checks in dialogue at all. If there's a dialogue option that requires some specific knowledge for instance, there should be an option to actually find that information in the game, not some general Lore skill or whatnot.

Why? We are talking about an RPG after all. What you as player know or can do, is less relevant then what your player knows/can do.

[Undecaf]

I would prefer if Obsidian used their current system for skillchecks (that all stats can produce them, and they only drive the discussion towards a certain direction and don't work as "win-buttons"), but I would also like if there were actual "speech" skills like persuasion, intimidation, deception, mercantile, seduction, etc, that were actually put in more "hands-on" use. So that for example, you would actually have to do something to haggle - even if it was something as simple as in Morrowind on choosing how much discount you wanted.

Gamify those options that cater to the "opponents" senses and good will, so that the situations in dialog was more... interesting than simply picking tagged lines.

[thelee]

On 8/15/2020 at 10:03 AM, Undecaf said:

Gamify those options that cater to the "opponents" senses and good will, so that the situations in dialog was more... interesting than simply picking tagged lines.

i think i was probably like 1 out of 100 who really really liked the speechcraft minigame in oblivion

[Wormerine]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

i think i was probably like 1 out of 100 who really really liked the speechcraft minigame in oblivion

Yeah, Oblivion and Deus Ex tried to gamify persuasion and honestly I didn't think it worked in either. It's fun to interact with NPC if they feel believable, and such minigames go very much against it. Now thinking of it - I don't like those minigames in general. I would rather have no lockpicking, then bad lockpicking. I will take Deus Ex1 hacking over Deus Ex:HR hacking - while simpler DE1 had at least resource management weight to it. 

The best gamification of persuasion I have seen so far is in Griftlands. It's not per say great but it holds up as abstract representation of an argument. At the same time, it's half of Griftlands total gameplay. And I also wouldn't want to play mini Gwent when trying to talk to someone (or maybe I would? Gwent was fun). 

[ComradeYellow]

Yes sometimes it's better to remove things than to add pointless filler, the problem Bethesda absolutely sucks at their own philosophy.  What was that Howard quote?  "Simplicity is complexity multiplied" or something like that, while that may be true in some games, Bethesda really sucks at executing it.  Most Bethesda games play like games for idiots.

[Undecaf]

On 8/16/2020 at 9:31 PM, thelee said:

i think i was probably like 1 out of 100 who really really liked the speechcraft minigame in oblivion

It really has a bad rep for a reason. What I'm after is much more systemic, and less player driven even though player input is (obviously) required.

The point would be to create a situation where the dialog feel like it is occupying the player more whilst retaining the stat driven nature.

 

What that would be in practice in up for debate and requires more thought, but the core idea would be to (with help from other features) make non combat gameplay more interesting and involving so as to step away from the basic cycle in which these games normally operate... which is walk-talk-kill, rinse and repeat. E.g. what would it require to make the walking part interesting aside from combat encounters, what would elevate the talking sequences from simply picking lines, and, well, the killing part could use some systemic flavor too because we've already seen the basics of it in dozens upon dozens of games.

 

Push the envelope on mechanical and systems design. People are not shy anymore of more systems driven gameplay. Creating a "superb" story whilst keeping all else simple and fluid doesn't do anything good anymore, only lukewarmth.

But yeah, this is starting to veer off from "speech skills discussion" so that's where the point is.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Undecaf

[Anthonyrex]

On 8/14/2020 at 6:58 PM, Wormerine said:

Why? We are talking about an RPG after all. What you as player know or can do, is less relevant then what your player knows/can do.

I don't see it that way at all. To me the best experiences I've ever had in RPGs is when that gap disappears and I feel that I AM my character. If a game makes me feel like I'm controlling some doll, entirely separate from myself, I get bored and stop playing.

[Wormerine]

1 hour ago, Anthonyrex said:

I don't see it that way at all. To me the best experiences I've ever had in RPGs is when that gap disappears and I feel that I AM my character.

Well, to me the most interesting part of an RPG is creating a character and having him interact with the world around him - that goes for his capabilities but his world views. I used to “recreate myself” in games as some sort of power fantasy but I couldn’t enjoy Obsidian games until I started to roleplay, at least a bit. That “roleplay as character who isn’t you” became the defining point of an RPG - no matter of we can create a character or its to some extend pre-defined. 

[Anthonyrex]

To me, roleplaying, is really taking on the role of the character in question. If you're a step removed from him, I don't see that as roleplaying really.

[Madscientist]

Please no mini game for speech skills.

Mini games for mechanical actions ( lock picking, hacking ) can be OK if done well, but the "mini game" for speech is to select the right answer.