Turnbased / realtime builds

[Osicat]

Im looking for builds and reading guides and posts alot latley but often its hard to know if people talk about RT or turnbased gameplay. In my personal preferences there is only turndbased as I realy (REALY) dont like pause/rt. I come from a background of IRL D&D and Divinity original sin etc + endless turnbased strategy games.

Is it any good way to know if people desucssing turnbased or real time builds?

Would it mabye be a good idea to split build forum from TB/RT?

 

Also as the rerason of my scrolling, what mele builds do you people prefere for turnbased gameplay?

 

/Osi

[Scrapulous]

You should probably assume that any build that doesn't specifically mention turn-based is a RTWP build. Another approach is to compare the date of the build post with the date of the patch that introduced Turn Based combat. But hard core build brains I know of around here are mostly RTWP folks. You do sometimes see other people asking this question and some breakdown of the differences - like action speed buffs become worthless in a TB world, for instance (or so I have read - I have never played TB).

[Haplok]

Well, not entirely worthless. If you're a caster, its still rather good to finish your cast before 10+ enemies attack and potentially interrupt/CC you.

[Adexrekt]

Currently I am trying to decide what builds to use for my turn based playthrough, but there is a severe lack of them as I see it. I don't know if I'm just bad at finding builds or people don't post much of them. Isn't there a thread/site or something that has builds like that posted? I only find outdated ones, if any at all.

[thelee]

5 hours ago, Adexrekt said:

Currently I am trying to decide what builds to use for my turn based playthrough, but there is a severe lack of them as I see it. I don't know if I'm just bad at finding builds or people don't post much of them. Isn't there a thread/site or something that has builds like that posted? I only find outdated ones, if any at all.

unfortunately i think the type of people who frequent these forums a lot or are active on wikis probably prefers the RtWP mode. and just by the nature of the beast, most of the videos and stuff were made early in deadfire's lifecycle, before turn-based mode got added. i think also part of the problem for other people updating builds is that between turn-based and RtWP some builds barely get affected at all, whereas other builds might get dramatically affected, so it can be frequently hard to tell what builds need attention.

be the change you want to see! try putting together a build and write it up and get feedback.

[Adexrekt]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

unfortunately i think the type of people who frequent these forums a lot or are active on wikis probably prefers the RtWP mode. and just by the nature of the beast, most of the videos and stuff were made early in deadfire's lifecycle, before turn-based mode got added. i think also part of the problem for other people updating builds is that between turn-based and RtWP some builds barely get affected at all, whereas other builds might get dramatically affected, so it can be frequently hard to tell what builds need attention.

be the change you want to see! try putting together a build and write it up and get feedback.

I have no idea how to even create a build. Is there a tool people use, or a quick lvl 20 cheat? Or do I need to calculate everything manually?

[thelee]

Just now, Adexrekt said:

Is there a tool people use

i use a nice pencil, eraser, and notepad

1 minute ago, Adexrekt said:

a quick lvl 20 cheat

there is a quick level 20 cheat - i think you just give yourself like a million xp. if i need to run tests i have an old game with a save in an inn and i just recruit a level 19 adventurer.

[thelee]

also you'll probably recruit more help if there's a specific build type you're going for - some theme, some class, etc. an open-ended question is just too overwhelming in possibilities.

[Adexrekt]

10 minutes ago, thelee said:

also you'll probably recruit more help if there's a specific build type you're going for - some theme, some class, etc. an open-ended question is just too overwhelming in possibilities.

Want to play turn based, veteran difficulty.

MC either Psyblade (would prefer this if it works) or Mindstalker. Using two-handed sword. Some people told me that Fighter/Cipher is not the best choice. Something about the Whispers two handed, but I don't care about that, I just want a build, I didn't ask about that sword at all, why complicate things further? Is that literally the only reason why it's not considered good? Just someone tell me if it will work or not.

Custom adventurer as Holy slayer, non-Bleak Walker for RP reasons. Using Arquebus, basically a sniper. Don't know if Steel Garrote would work, as the Garrote skill does not say its range at all. Any other sniper build I would welcome (except ranger, I don't want a pet).

I have been struggling for almost a week now to start a game, because I know I can't switch classes once I begin. I need directions as I am overwhelmed.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Adexrekt

[thelee]

i'm not a cipher expert, but i can try:

8 minutes ago, Adexrekt said:

MC either Psyblade (would prefer this if it works) or Mindstalker. Using two-handed sword. Some people told me that Fighter/Cipher is not the best choice. Something about the Whispers two handed,

i think mostly people who voice this concern are thinking about real time, not turn-based, out of a concern that two handed weapons tend to be less responsive in fights than dual-wielding. barely matters for turn-based. i don't know the specific reason why whispers would com eup.

it also behooves to keep in mind that deadfire is a game that is very forgiving to different choices, so when people talk about "best choice" they're not saying that "if you don't do X the game will be miserably hard" which can be the case for other systems (especially older D&D style systems), they're talking micro-optimizations or possibly degenerate metagaming combos. i would not put too much attention to people who stress a lot about a specific build point.

 

for psyblade, devoted would be an excellent pair with a cipher if you're gungho about using two-handes words. +2 PEN would solve two-handed sword's main weakness, which is low inherent penetration. Disciplined Barrage will give you a perception inspiration to help land two-handed sword hits with the modal active (which otherwise penalizes accuracy) in addition to boosting cipher power accuracy. On turn-based mode, chance to hit is more generous so the higher damage potential of a two-handed sword with modal on will really help with focus generation.

ciphers--especially on turn-based mode--seem to have an extreme action economy issue - they have to attack to generate focus, and then you have to spend a turn to actually use the powers. as a result, i might stay away from an ascendant and steer you to a beguiler (whom you can set up to generate or recover focus just from using powers) or soulblade (who can dump all their focus into a single attack if need be, in addition to getting cheaper shred abilities).

i would also not stress too much. while your class and first level abilities and stats are fixed, you can respec everything else. if you're struggling a lot, just go with your gut of what seems like it would be the most fun, don't worry about getting it wrong, and just say "**** it." it took me a lot of runs of deadfire to really figure things out back and forth, and i just made peace with the fact that all my runs would be sub-optimal in some way (and most of the time i put together builds that are thematically fun rather than optimal, so they are sub-optimal anyway, and it's not a big deal if they are sub-optimal because that's not my angle. i can still beat the game and megabosses on the hardest difficulty with various challenges enabled, so being sub-optimal does not lock content away from me).

 

 

17 minutes ago, Adexrekt said:

Custom adventurer as Holy slayer, non-Bleak Walker for RP reasons. Using Arquebus, basically a sniper. Don't know if Steel Garrote would work, as the Garrote skill does not say its range at all. Any other sniper build I would welcome (except ranger, I don't want a pet).

garotte is extremely close distance. it does not use your weapon or weapon range, it's a special attack at close range.

rogues can make for great snipers due to the ability to inflict tons of sneak attack damage at range, and most of their attacks are agnostic about what weapon they use (pay attention to ability descriptions though; sap and shadow step require a melee weapon in your primary slot iirc). in fact in my experience, on higher difficulties some of your worst fights will be against rogue archers who stay out of reach of your party and sneak attack and use things like finishing blow or blinding strike with a crossbow or some such. so i can imagine that doing that yourself would be pretty effective.

chanters are also decent support snipers imo. they come with a great chant for ranged attacks, and being at range gives them the flexibility to move in and out of range for chants and invocations. don't pick up a skald though because the skald chance for critical hit only applies for melee weapons.

monks and monk MCs can make for surprisingly good snipers because of dance with death, which will generate wounds without needing to get hit and give you up to +15 accuracy. swift strikes will make you fast. i dont' think swift flurry works with ranged weapons, but lightning strikes will add a lightning lash to your ranged attacks. at high levels you can use long pain or instruments of pain to use melee weapons as if you were a sniper, which is really powerful (ranged weapons typically are balanced to be weaker than melee due to their relative safety, so using melee weapons at long range is an improvement in dps).

if you merely just don't want a permanent pet, a ghost heart ranger is an excellent choice. instead of a pet, they have a fast-cast summon that you can send suicidally to distract enemies or go for squishy mages in the back line. 

[Adexrekt]

5 minutes ago, thelee said:

*lots of text*

Thanks, that is really helpful! Yes, Devoted+Soulblade is what I had in mind. I will stick to that, then. Fixed my main dilemma for the MC, thanks a lot!

 

Regarding the adventurer, a chanter seems like a good idea. What other class would you pair that with? Rogue? Also, since it will be ranged, would Trickster work better than Assassin if I don't want to rely on attacking from stealth? Since in turn based going back into stealth in combat either requires either an entire turn, or 3 guile with the upgraded skill...

I might stick with holy slayer since I wanted Pallegrina to have the chanter multiclass option. If i chose paladin/rogue, would kind wayfarer work?

I'll check the ranger option too. However, I find how monks work extremely unfun for me personally. I'll rule that out.

[Scrapulous]

53 minutes ago, Adexrekt said:

Is there a tool people use, or a quick lvl 20 cheat?

Yes. The ` key (same key as ~ on my keyboard) opens the console. Type iRoll20s (or just iro and hit tab). This enables cheats and disables achievements. Then type, if I'm remembering correctly, addexperiencetolevel 20 . If that command doesn't work, just type addexp and hit tab to cycle through the autocomplete options. The right command will appear.

[thelee]

17 minutes ago, Adexrekt said:

Regarding the adventurer, a chanter seems like a good idea. What other class would you pair that with? Rogue? Also, since it will be ranged, would Trickster work better than Assassin if I don't want to rely on attacking from stealth? Since in turn based going back into stealth in combat either requires either an entire turn, or 3 guile with the upgraded skill...

a sc chanter is extremely powerful, but you have to be OK with turning them into a summoner/sniper, which it sounds like you aren't keen on (avoiding ranger pets).

trickster, debonaire, and vanilla rogue work great for a chanter MC. streetfighter requires a lot of metagaming and i'm not sure they're nearly as good in turn-based mode. my current run is a mixed melee/ranged debonaire MC and absolutely wrecks in any fight involving kith. if you want to combo, chanter gets a charm invocation, which will let the debonaire land (mostly) free critical hits on lots of foes even when not fighting kith.

edit: an assassin/chanter MC would be extra bad because your chanting will almost immediately break shadowing beyond, and depending on the chant may almost immediately break smoke veil. there's not a lot of "trap" choices in deadfire, but that's arguably one of them.

Edited August 12, 2020 by thelee

[Adexrekt]

3 minutes ago, thelee said:

a sc chanter is extremely powerful, but you have to be OK with turning them into a summoner/sniper, which it sounds like you aren't keen on (avoiding ranger pets).

trickster, debonaire, and vanilla rogue work great for a chanter MC. streetfighter requires a lot of metagaming and i'm not sure they're nearly as good in turn-based mode. my current run is a mixed melee/ranged debonaire MC and absolutely wrecks in any fight involving kith. if you want to combo, chanter gets a charm invocation, which will let the debonaire land (mostly) free critical hits on lots of foes even when not fighting kith.

You are right, I don't want to summon anything, at least it's not what I have in mind for the custom adventurer. Hmm, well I think  it comes down to either Holy slayer or Scout.

For the Holy Slayer, would Kind Wayfarer work at all, as a sniper? And I am thinking Trickster.

For the Scout, Ghost Heart actually sounds like a solution I'd like. And I'd pair it with Trickster?

[thelee]

3 minutes ago, Adexrekt said:

For the Holy Slayer, would Kind Wayfarer work at all, as a sniper? And I am thinking Trickster.

not bad, i would point out that to get the most out of kind wayfarer you'd have to be close to your party members because the aoe on wayfarer's flames of devotion healing is small. you'd also want to dual-wield ranged weapons to max it out (dual-wielding weapons and the spammability of flames of devotion means you could be be among the best healers in the game just by spamming it over and over as needed)

 

5 minutes ago, Adexrekt said:

For the Scout, Ghost Heart actually sounds like a solution I'd like. And I'd pair it with Trickster?

i think vanilla rogue is fine. trickster has a lot of abilities which tend to be more useful if you are closer to the enemy (mirror image, repulsive visage, displaced image) so if you're not going to get much mileage out of them (and they all compete in guile usage with normal abilities), you can still debuff and pummel foes without sacrificing some sneak attack damage. (and the ghost heart has their own set of abilities to help debuff enemies, espeically since you may not be relying on your pet ghost to do as much)

[Adexrekt]

1 minute ago, thelee said:

not bad, i would point out that to get the most out of kind wayfarer you'd have to be close to your party members because the aoe on wayfarer's flames of devotion healing is small. you'd also want to dual-wield ranged weapons to max it out (dual-wielding weapons and the spammability of flames of devotion means you could be be among the best healers in the game just by spamming it over and over as needed)

 

i think vanilla rogue is fine. trickster has a lot of abilities which tend to be more useful if you are closer to the enemy (mirror image, repulsive visage, displaced image) so if you're not going to get much mileage out of them (and they all compete in guile usage with normal abilities), you can still debuff and pummel foes without sacrificing some sneak attack damage. (and the ghost heart has their own set of abilities to help debuff enemies, espeically since you may not be relying on your pet ghost to do as much)

I think Rogue(No Sub)/Ranger(Ghost Heart) it is, then. With Arquebus, and maybe Warbow as backup against mobs that are immune to pierce?

While I can re-spec, attributes are irreversible, so how would you build that? My only guess is that I should max PER. Also, to have some idea what to do, which skills would be essential?

[thelee]

35 minutes ago, Adexrekt said:

While I can re-spec, attributes are irreversible, so how would you build that? My only guess is that I should max PER. Also, to have some idea what to do, which skills would be essential?

depending on your ranger build, if you want to be completely optimal, perception is actually not that important. rangers get so much bonus accuracy (+10 marked prey, +5 marksman, +10 stalker's link, possibly +10 survival of the fittest, up to +20 from hunter's claw/fang/beast's claw, all stacking with each other) that you're better off boosting other offensive stats (dex, might). but that sort of depends on how much micromanagement you're willing to invest in the character. hunter's claw requires metagaming and prep work (not a lot, but consistent amounts). stalker's link requires you to use your ghost pet effectively. but if you just do marked prey, marksman, and survival of the fittest, that's already +25 accuracy right there.

similarly, rogues get so much bonus damage that you're better off boosting one of the other offensive stats (dex, perception).

(the mathematical reason why you want to invest in other stats is for the same reason why if you want to maximize the area or volume of a quadrangle or cuboid, you draw a square or a cube. damage, accuracy, and dex are the three different "axes" of damage, so given a fixed total for all three to distribute, to maximize the "volume" (damage) they should all be as equivalent as possible (a stat "cube").)

that pretty much leaves dex as the king stat to invest in. intellect is always a good choice since you probably have lots of abilities you want to last longer (could also be very important for getting past rounding cutoffs in turn-based mode). you could sprinkle remaining points however much you want (might/dex gives you roughly linear returns so is always worth investing in). some con might be useful just so you can survive incidental spell hits or enemy rogues that like to escape to the backlines.

 

as for skills, it's really your call. marked prey is the only big one i suggest everyone get from a ranger. i like arterial strike for rogue (it is great for opening fights and kiting enemies with), but may not be as effective in turn-based mode. deathblows is extremely powerful so you want to make sure you have a diversity of debuffs to trigger it; perception debuffs count as two afflictions (flanked + the actual perception affliction itself) so blinding strike (+upgrades), or debilitating strike are good to have. ranger gets a few debuffs that are useful. (diversity of debuffs is handy if you run across perception resistent or perception immune foes and can no longer rely on a simple distracted (or any perception affliction for immune foes) to trigger deathblows)

edit: better than skills recommendations, i have two anti-recommendations. as i mentioned before, sap and shadowing step require a melee weapon for rogue, so you should probably avoid those. hunter's claw also requires a melee weapon for ranger, but it's so good when maxed out that i just equip two melee weapons for my ranger for a few fights to build it up before switching back to ranged.

Edited August 12, 2020 by thelee

[Adexrekt]

18 minutes ago, thelee said:

depending on your ranger build, if you want to be completely optimal, perception is actually not that important. rangers get so much bonus accuracy (+10 marked prey, +5 marksman, +10 stalker's link, possibly +10 survival of the fittest, up to +20 from hunter's claw/fang/beast's claw, all stacking with each other) that you're better off boosting other offensive stats (dex, might). but that sort of depends on how much micromanagement you're willing to invest in the character. hunter's claw requires metagaming and prep work (not a lot, but consistent amounts). stalker's link requires you to use your ghost pet effectively. but if you just do marked prey, marksman, and survival of the fittest, that's already +25 accuracy right there.

similarly, rogues get so much bonus damage that you're better off boosting one of the other offensive stats (dex, perception).

(the mathematical reason why you want to invest in other stats is for the same reason why if you want to maximize the area or volume of a quadrangle or cuboid, you draw a square or a cube. damage, accuracy, and dex are the three different "axes" of damage, so given a fixed total for all three to distribute, to maximize the "volume" (damage) they should all be as equivalent as possible (a stat "cube").)

that pretty much leaves dex as the king stat to invest in. intellect is always a good choice since you probably have lots of abilities you want to last longer (could also be very important for getting past rounding cutoffs in turn-based mode). you could sprinkle remaining points however much you want (might/dex gives you roughly linear returns so is always worth investing in). some con might be useful just so you can survive incidental spell hits or enemy rogues that like to escape to the backlines.

 

as for skills, it's really your call. marked prey is the only big one i suggest everyone get from a ranger. i like arterial strike for rogue (it is great for opening fights and kiting enemies with), but may not be as effective in turn-based mode. deathblows is extremely powerful so you want to make sure you have a diversity of debuffs to trigger it; perception debuffs count as two afflictions (flanked + the actual perception affliction itself) so blinding strike (+upgrades), or debilitating strike are good to have. ranger gets a few debuffs that are useful. (diversity of debuffs is handy if you run across perception resistent or perception immune foes and can no longer rely on a simple distracted (or any perception affliction for immune foes) to trigger deathblows)

edit: better than skills recommendations, i have two anti-recommendations. as i mentioned before, sap and shadowing step require a melee weapon for rogue, so you should probably avoid those. hunter's claw also requires a melee weapon for ranger, but it's so good when maxed out that i just equip two melee weapons for my ranger for a few fights to build it up before switching back to ranged.

I should have guessed there is no simple answer even to the simplest question. Now I have absolutely no idea how to distribute the attributes. Please tell me an example, I am tired of planning and just want to play the game.

[thelee]

9 minutes ago, Adexrekt said:

I should have guessed there is no simple answer even to the simplest question. Now I have absolutely no idea how to distribute the attributes. Please tell me an example, I am tired of planning and just want to play the game.

for a wood elf (adjust as necessary)

10 might/13 con/19 dex/10 per/18 int/7 resolve

then take deadfire archipelago as a background for an additional +1 dex

make sure to pick marked prey as your ranger skill, you absolutely cannot go wrong with it and you will never respec out of it. i would take escape as your rogue ability because the mobility and bonus deflection will be very helpful in avoiding danger and getting into range and you can lean on other party members to help debuff early on. pick up blinding strike as your main rogue offensive skill later, you can upgrade it to confounding blind to utterly punish foes you are ganging up on. with 18 intellect it should last a decent amount of rounds to let you pile on the deflection penalty. (this incidentally is an ability that is utterly a nightmare to be on the receiving end of.)

for skills i would choose explosives. cinder bomb, sparkcrackers are easy to make and will help you debuff foes. at high skill levels, stun bombs are an amazing lifesaver. (there are also some nice gloves that give you free sparkcrackers to use per rest, and another set that boosts your explosives even further). the other bombs are plenty useful too. pick a passive skill that fits with your theme, and if you have no idea, pick religion or survival for the synergy with saint omaku's mercy (a pretty decent war bow)

now, stop lurking on the forums and go play the game!

Edited August 12, 2020 by thelee

[Adexrekt]

3 minutes ago, thelee said:

for a wood elf (adjust as necessary)

10 might/13 con/19 dex/10 per/18 int/7 resolve

then take deadfire archipelago as a background for an additional +1 dex

make sure to pick marked prey as your ranger skill, you absolutely cannot go wrong with it and you will never respec out of it. i would take escape as your rogue ability because the mobility will be very helpful in avoiding danger and getting into range and you can lean on other party members to help debuff early on. pick up blinding strike as your main rogue offensive skill later, you can upgrade it to confounding blind to utterly punish foes you are ganging up on.

for skills i would choose explosives. cinder bomb, sparkcrackers are easy to make and will help you debuff foes. at high skill levels, stun bombs are an amazing lifesaver. (there are also some nice gloves that give you free sparkcrackers to use per rest, and another set that boosts your explosives even further). the other bombs are plenty useful too. pick a passive skill that fits with your theme, and if you have no idea, pick religion for the synergy with saint omaku's mercy (a pretty decent war bow)

now, stop lurking on the forums and go play the game!

With this, I finally have everything sorted out. Thank you so much for the help! I'm off to play finally.