Armor Restriction/Force Powers

[anari_quun]

I haven't read all of the other posts; I don't know if this has been discussed yet:

 

One of the things that removed me from the experience of KOTOR I was the concept of a character's armor restricing their Force powers. I think that there are other ways to guide a player into not using armor; simply not allowing the player to use his/her Force powers is silly. Darth Vader is armored like crazy (he can deflect blaster bolts with his hand!) yet he can Force choke somebody on another Star Destroyer. While I don't think it would be practical to allow this type of far-reaching ability, I don't see how it's beliveable that a Jedi wouldn't be able to push or stun somebody through his/her armor.

 

According to EU, the Emperor is Battle Meditating the entire Imperial Fleet; do we really think that some armor would get in his way?

 

And who says Jedi robes aren't armored to begin with? These guys are in danger all the time; I think their robes are probably made out of something fierce. Maybe not.

 

Anyway, a suggestion would be to allow Force powers to be used regardless of armor, and find some other way to encourage/discourage armor use by said Jedi.

[EnderAndrew]

The reasoning behind armor is merely one of game balance in my opinion, not one that makes a whole lot of sense.

 

If you want to know what's been discussed, check the stickies in the Sith Lords discussion.

[Opus131]

I think this is a correct critisism.

 

You don't need to draw runes in the air or mix ingredients in order to 'cast' the force, Bioware simply got lazy and couldn't think of something better to balance their 'fighter/mages'.

 

If lightsabers were dexetery based (why in the hell are they based on strenght in the first place ?!?), wearing armors should reduce your dexetery bonus with a light saber on top of the usual AC bonus.

 

There, simple, ain't it ?!?

[Opus131]

The reasoning behind armor is merely one of game balance in my opinion

Balance, what balance ?!? What is this balance that you speak of ?!?

 

I never seen it in KOTOR, maybe i missed it... :ph34r:

[Darque]

I think Opus131 nailed it.

[meek]

Well, Vader isn't really wearing an armor. You could say his 'body' is the armor.

[Guest Exar Kun]

Well, Vader isn't really wearing an armor. You could say his 'body' is the armor.

That is true...Vader was more machine than human. But still yet that whole suit was not respirator...he was still armored.

[EnderAndrew]

The reasoning behind armor is merely one of game balance in my opinion

Balance, what balance ?!? What is this balance that you speak of ?!?

 

I never seen it in KOTOR, maybe i missed it... :ph34r:

Would it be better to say, an attempt at balance?

[Iolo]

I am not certain it's the same as KOTOR2 in D20 but what they could do is say have some feats that you can take to offset using force powers in armor. Sort of like the Armored Arcana feats in IWD2. Sure if you take the feat you give up feats you can use for other force powers but I think that would balance this out a bit.

[EnderAndrew]

I think that's a great idea.

[3vIl fReAk]

i fink it just wont look right with jedi's wearing fat ass armour all the time

[EnderAndrew]

See, I'm going to go back to the West End Game's Star Wars system for a minute because I'm a big fan of that.

 

A decent set or armor would net you 1D of Energy Resistance, and 2D of Concussion Resistance, while costing you 1D of Dexterity.

 

It didn't interfere with using the Force at all.

 

Jedi didn't wear the stuff because it didn't seem practical for them. Bounty Hunters and the like wore it, because it seemed more practical for them. In years of running Star Wars game, never once did I see a Jedi player put on armor.

[Weiser_Cain]

(read this as fast as you can to achieve the proper effect)

 

I think the real reason Jedi didn't wear armor originaly was because the force was far superior to any armor. I mean armor didn't seem to do much good for all those storm troopers Hans solo took out with a single blaster bolt. When Vader deflected those blaster bolts he was using the force not his armor.

 

In the D20 system there is an insane focus on 'balancing' they restrict force powers for implants which goes against what we knew about vader then rewrite the whole thing to try and make it make some sense. I guess this is supposed to prevent power gaming but thats what Starwars is about, if you're sith! It would have made more sense to tie power gaming to the dark side, or here's an idea, make the force trump just about everything short of a mandalorian basilisk(and even then...).

 

Vader wore armor, that armor had a life support system built into it. His cybernetics were not part of the armor as far as I know(they may rewrite/mess this up in episode three). I always assumed he didn't use force lightning because he couldn't(Force lightning being a uber-sith power he hadn't mastered), the idea that he couldn't because his armor was blocking his connection to the force or because he'd hurt himself is pretty lame. The force is connected to everything, Bastila uses the force on entire armies with two ship hulls and hundreds of miles of space inbetween them, but slap on a cod peice and suddenly my connection to the force that binds all life together and guides the universe is dimminished? Nonsense.

[EnderAndrew]

I think you should be able to "maintain" certain Force Powers, or have certain powers be reflexive.

 

If you could absord/dissipate a blaster bolt, like Vader did with his hand, then Jedi wouldn't wear armor.

[anari_quun]

I think we're on the right track with taking away other abilities instead of the user's Force capabilities. Dexterity for one, perhaps even strength (as it is used in the game)? Lugging around all that armor is heavy, likely to make attacks more difficult.

 

Or...a player's Force "mana" could be affected due to his/her having to constantly lighten the load. Say, just a penalty on your mana as long as you're wearing the armor?

 

Keep in mind that truly, the Jedi are supposed to be more powerful than normal people, and that part of the gameplay is how believable it is within it's own milieu.

 

Well, suffice to say that it is kind of silly that most (esp. offensive) Force powers can't be used while wearing armor; as to what to compromise instead to still allow the game to be balanced and challenging remains.

 

Anyway, I think it's probably too late to make such a big change like this to the game as it is right now (if it has not already been addressed), but possibly for future versions...

[Darion]

Better would be if u thinked of better ways to do a good "balance between fighter/mage players!!!

[anari_quun]

My suggestions are in my posts; however I do not profess them to be perfect; they are merely suggestions. I am trying to be constructive.

[Weiser_Cain]

Actually we can fix this provided they don't hard code everything, we were able to get rid of armor restrictions in KOTOR after all...

[Iolo]

I think we're on the right track with taking away other abilities instead of the user's Force capabilities. Dexterity for one, perhaps even strength (as it is used in the game)? Lugging around all that armor is heavy, likely to make attacks more difficult.

I beleive dexterity bonus to AC is already limited by the armor you wear.

[Jenai Starr]

See, I'm going to go back to the West End Game's Star Wars system for a minute because I'm a big fan of that.

 

A decent set or armor would net you 1D of Energy Resistance, and 2D of Concussion Resistance, while costing you 1D of Dexterity.

 

It didn't interfere with using the Force at all.

 

Jedi didn't wear the stuff because it didn't seem practical for them.  Bounty Hunters and the like wore it, because it seemed more practical for them.  In years of running Star Wars game, never once did I see a Jedi player put on armor.

There isn't anything written in stone that explains the restrictions of force powers caused by what you wear. So, here's my theory.

 

In Kotor 1, you'll notice all of the dark side force powers that Darth Vader used in the original trilogy are not restricted by armor (force wound, choke, and kill, energy resistance, force push, and the lightsaber throw). I know he used more i just can't think of the rest. I think powers like force shock and drain life are restricted because Vader (who does wear armor) never used them. But the emporer, who wore robes instead of armor, did. I think that the devs at bioware took this into account.

 

Since we've never seen or heard of an armored jedi casting force lightning, I guess the bioware devs assumed that you shouldn't be able to. However, they made some grave errors.

 

Stun droid is basically a lightning attack and it's not restricted by armor. Force aura, force valor, burst of speed, and force resistance are restricted by armor. But energy resistance isn't. Some armor is light, so why wouldn't burst of speed work?

 

I feel that as fans we should post some more comments about this.

We all know that George Lucas is the creator of Star Wars, but many others have contributed to the Star Wars universe through novels and other video games. Certain guidlines and rules were created by these people. The Kotor 1 rule restricting certain force powers while wearing armor is bogus.

 

You can purchase Exar Kun's light battle suit. This armor belonged to a Sith Lord who was "rarely without considerable, yet flexible, personal armor." It's hard to imagine a Sith Lord that was unable to cast force lightning because of his armor.

 

When you watch The Clone Wars cartoon, General Kenobi wears clone armor while leading the clone army. In the first episode you see Yoda leading the clone army into battle as he's narrating the episode. He's not wearing armor.

 

I think it's all about preference. Obi-Wan didn't have to wear the clone armor, he chose to. Personally, I think when going to war, all jedi should wear light battle armor. They should wear their customary robes everywhere but the battlefield. A jedi could choose to enter a battlefield without armor, again I think it's all about preference.

 

In Kotor 2, I hope they fix the armor restrictions. I played the first game wearing jedi robes until I came across a good suit of medium armor. I never wore heavy armor. It was too clunky. My three favorite suits of armor were bronzium light battle armor, Jomah Hogra's battle armor, and the Krath holy battle suit. These armor choices fit the characters body and don't make him or her look fat. The Jomah Hogra's suit was my favorite choice because of the 11 defense bonus, the +2 max dexterity, immunity to critical hits, and +1 strength.

 

You get more bonuses with armor, than you do with jedi robes. The only advantage to wearing the jedi robes is the high dexterity bonus. The only other bonus you get is with the Quel-Droma robes( wisdom +2 and a defense bonus of 5), but they're restricted to light sight players. It's funny that there isn't a dark side equivilant to the Quel-Droma robes. Later on you get Darth Revan's robes which are restricted to dark side players, but if you're light side you also get the Star Forge robes. That's two special robes for the jedi and only one for the dark jedi.

 

I prefer armor. Anyone who has the prerequisites can wear it. It doen't matter if you're a light side player or a dark side player. You can get armor with all kinds of bonuses and immunity and wear it without restrictions. The only downside is the low max dexterity bonus. However, you can counter this with the Adrenaline Stimulator, the Karakan Gauntlets, and the Gordulan Reaction System or any piece of equipment that raises your dexterity.

 

I hope that the devs of Kotor 2 fix the armor restriction. The restrictions should increase by the weight of the armor. Light armor should hold no restrictions. Medium armor should restrict your ability to cast all the protective force powers. Heavy armor should restrict all the protective force powers, burst of speed and any power that shoots or draws energy from or to the hands, like force lightning and drain life. Force powers that use the living force around you such as force push, force pull (if added), and the lightsaber throw wouldn't be restricted. Since these moves seem to be controlled by the users mind instead of the body.

 

Then again, this is speculation. But it makes sense. If you're wearing really thick armor made of metal, how would you be able to shoot lightning? You wouldn't be able to. The lightning would be confined to the inside of your armor and kill you. If you were wearing light or medium armor made of fibers and cloth, the lightning would pass through your glove since it's not metal.

 

What do you guys think?

[anari_quun]

I see what you're saying; I'm of the school of thought that says the Force can be controlled, armor be damned. Even if the Emperor was wearing armor (and who say's armor has to be made out of conductive metal, but I won't go down that road), he still would be able to use the Force lightning. I don't think the lightning is literally coming out of him; it's more that he's directing the lightning, similar to the fact that one doesn't need to wave his/her hand to use a Jedi mind trick- it's just a gesture. Really, the only one who "knows" is George, so you may be right.

 

It's obviously just something to make the game more challenging. However, if you're the kind of person that really wants to customize your characters to personalize your gaming experience, it limits your costume choice considerably. Especially the females: as a male character you're supposed to be attracted to Bastila; she looks like an old woman in those Jedi robes, making it a little more of a stretch for me to believe an attraction could materialize.

 

I didn't pay close attention, but does anybody know if Darth Bandon uses Force powers that are unusable by you when you wear his armor? This would drill a hole through any reasoning.

 

Perhaps certain Force powers could simply be weakened instead of eliminated altogether.

[EnderAndrew]

Using magic and D&D as an example, armor restricts movement.

 

The Force should be mental, and movement shouldn't really play a key, or should it?

 

When Yoda lifts the ship out of the swamp, he moves his hands. There are hand gestures every time TK is used in the Dooku/Yoda battle, and when Luke reaches for his lightsaber on Hoth.

 

Hand gestures are even used when Affect Mind is being used. I always took it that the hand-gestures conveyed to the audience something was going on. In Star Wars RPG's I've run, I've never told a player they were cut off from the Force if they couldn't wiggle their fingers. However, certain ritualistic elements make the user more comfortable in the belief they can bend reality. Waving your fingers is a crutch that Force Users may rely upon in order to mentally flip the switch.

 

In that logic, armor could somehow restrict movement, making such gestures cumbersome.

[anari_quun]

I agree with the notion that the gestures are simply indicators for the audience and also maybe helping hands to allow a Force user visualize their actions.

 

There are cases of Force (in the movies) being used without gestures; Vader choking Ozell, Luke trying to fool Jabba, lifting rocks while standing on his head, etc. We're going overboard, though.

 

I think it is sufficient to say that there is a consensus among us that restriction of the Force by armor is dubious. I would leave it up to the experts on balancing at Obsidian to work out the technical details, if they even consider changing this aspect of the game (which they probably won't, considering how far along the game is). But there's always hope.

[mastromanos]

I think that everyone forgets something about armour. The only Jedi in the game that used any armor at all was the protagonist himself. As an ex-soldier,scoundrel or scout the main character had knowledge of using armor so he used it at his/hers advantage later in the game by combining Jedi sence and armour bonuses. All the other Jedi NPC's had absolutelly no armour proficiencies and I highly doupt that anyone would waste any feats for armor on any one of Juhani, Jolie or Bastilla. The thing about armour restrictions is quite right in my opinion at least for ex-soldier characters and ex-scouts since there were some pretty powerfull Heavy and medium armours out there that, combined with the jedi sense feats, made your defence practically inpregnable. My first character was a soldier 8/Guardian 12 aith a dexterity of 8. By the end of the game I achieved an armour class of 27! If more force based classes like the Sentinel and especially the consullar haf free use of the more powerfull force powers while wearing armour then no one would play a warrior type Jedi. Anyway there are some pretty powerfull force abilities that are not restricted by armour like force kill, force wave, Stasis field,destroy droid e.t.c. Let the armour restriction be! The idea has merrit. The only reason I could imagine for removing it would be an apropriatte feat, or feats like previously suggested, since you would have to sacrifice some of your feats for greater "force flexibility". B)

[alanschu]

Just to add something to the person that posted earlier.....

 

An adrenal stimulant won't help you regain "lost dexterity" bonuses.

 

When armor says max +1 Dex bonus, you could have a Dexterity of a billion and you'd still only get the +1 from your dexterity.