Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[thelee]

i mostly like it. my main concern is that between 1 and 3 we have a lot of upside for the class now, especially since it looks like you removed a lot of the symmetry on the wild mind effects.

what if (3) triggered a foe and friend miscast, instead of the foe-only version that you have now. make it a little bit less of a trivial empowerment upgrade.

 

otherwise, thumbs up

Edited February 5 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

I think the main idea is to use a big weapon AoE such as thunderous report, then an empowered attack. 

 

I think it's fine if the class has more upside than downside since it's a companion class (looking at you Maia). Also the random part is so unpopular (even with more upside) that a little help won't hurt. 

 

3) isn't even a strict advantage since it force depleting your focus pool on an empowered ability, which one may not like. But since it's predictable, one can play around. 

 

Finally, Cipher subclasses tend to have more upside than downside IMHO. 

[yorname]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Ok, but I suspect it is wrong for this part because I checked the code and it shows standard PL progression. And Standard PL progression is 5% multiplicative per PL above ability level.

(can't check in game now)

did a quick test, it's indeed 5%, and weapon part also benefits from PL.

the corrected result would be M<376/(108+135L), so even with a lash, DW needs a ~300% multiplier to match BW.

still, with 250% multiplier and no lash, the difference is very small:

DW 153.0625 vs BW 158.3625, a 3.46% difference

if change BW to 30% lash the difference is 10.7%, slightly more visible but probably not good enough

[Elric Galad]

15 minutes ago, yorname said:

did a quick test, it's indeed 5%, and weapon part also benefits from PL.

the corrected result would be M<376/(108+135L), so even with a lash, DW needs a ~300% multiplier to match BW.

still, with 250% multiplier and no lash, the difference is very small:

DW 153.0625 vs BW 158.3625, a 3.46% difference

if change BW to 30% lash the difference is 10.7%, slightly more visible but probably not good enough

2.5 multiplier is super hard to get with anything but a mindstalker. 

x2 multiplier is a reasonable assumption I guess. 

 

Currently, I feel like 25% raw lash could be enough. Without further lash, it also has a strict advantage when missing 3 PEN or more (double damages, equal focus) . This is something. Underpenetration does happens, especially when using mortars or rods (and those are very optimal weapons for a cipher). 

Also the damages benefits is neat is certain cases. Such as when using big Active AoE from weapons or when multiclassed with Shattered Pillar. 

Edited February 5 by Elric Galad

[yorname]

25 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

2.5 multiplier is super hard to get with anything but a mindstalker. 

x2 multiplier is a reasonable assumption I guess.

with *2 multiplier and 25% raw lash, the difference is 8%. IDK, if BW is "overall" 8% more damage it's probably worth considering, but we're only looking at a very specific use and the advantage is still so small that if we just occasionally cast a spell it disappears.

But I agree the lash can't be too high because the AoE applications you mentioned. I'm still rooting for your 0.625 SW/BW solution

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

3) isn't even a strict advantage since it force depleting your focus pool on an empowered ability, which one may not like. But since it's predictable, one can play around. 

ah yes i completly forgot taht it sucks up all your focus. ok, sounds pretty good to me then. good job!

[yorname]

Can you make the shield from old "cannot die" effect visible, at least the duration?

Also priests' resurrection still has cannot die effect, is it intentional that only they have access to it?

[Elric Galad]

25 minutes ago, yorname said:

Can you make the shield from old "cannot die" effect visible, at least the duration?

I think the duration is visible. Granted that the shield only becomes active while Near Death. Before that, duration is infinite.

25 minutes ago, yorname said:

Also priests' resurrection still has cannot die effect, is it intentional that only they have access to it?

Yes, but it can't be extended and can only be cast from knockdown. So for each 30s of unkillability, you have to pay "1 wound".

Potion of final stand also has a non extendable cannot die effect. But since it is a consumable, number of uses per encounter is limited.

[Elric Galad]

13 hours ago, yorname said:

with *2 multiplier and 25% raw lash, the difference is 8%. IDK, if BW is "overall" 8% more damage it's probably worth considering, but we're only looking at a very specific use and the advantage is still so small that if we just occasionally cast a spell it disappears.

But I agree the lash can't be too high because the AoE applications you mentioned. I'm still rooting for your 0.625 SW/BW solution

Okay, after thinking about many solutions, I have the first proposal I feel satisfied about.

 

First why simply rising the focus gain for SW/BW does not satisfy me :
- low level power creep (minor)
- to be honnest, this one has a relatively high risk of introducing bugs and is annoying to fully test
- Major game design flaw : it would make BW / DW much closer in term of gameplay. Which isn't the point of mutually exclusive committing abilities.

 

So my idea : a big part of the issue comes from Soul Annihilition providing benefit as Biting Whip with additional flexibility. Soul Annihilation with DW will always be pretty equivalent as Soul Annhilation with BW but more flexible.

So why not just adjusting Soul Annihilation formula to ensure BW is always the better choice with it ? It makes sense after all that an ability used to increase weapon damage improve the unique weapon-based subclass ability of Soulblade.

 

Proposal :

1) Soul annihilation formula :
With SW/DW : primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 4] * [1 + 0.05 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)
With BW :        primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 2] * [1 + 0.05 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)
So Soul Annihilation would always be better since it generates 0.625* focus (with full PEN)

2) *Round up BT to +25% raw lash damages. This value ensure BT being strictly better than DW in case of full underpenetration (without further lash, but even with other lash, BT feels like way better in this case) .

 

Consequences for subclasses :

- Psion : meditates on the subject

- Soulblade : wanna do more weapon damages (including SA) ? Easy. Pick BW. Wanna be more versatile ? Pick DW.

- Ascendant : BW benefits a lot from subclass bonus focus generation. BW Ascendant would be doing x1.2 damages (counting the minus -10% additive damages as minus -5% multiplicative) and generates about 90% focus compared to vanilla cipher. Also once ascended (a bit harder to achieve, but you have tools to do so), BW is strictly better (cough cough Wall of Draining, Salvation of Time, etc...)

- Beguiler : Beguiler is quite a lot about casting. That said, if using a lots of cheap/AoE deception spell, Beguiler may need less focus. So it could make sense with a damage oriented multiclass to pick BW (Shattered Pillar, Rogue). This would create a versatile character, very focused on weapon attacks, but with backup deception spell (this would probably never be the most likely choice, but the important is that it could work)

- Vanilla : a bit like Beguiler without the benefit of other focus sources. Probably the worst pick for BW, but overall the worst pick for Cipher as a whole.

 

Note that the Soul Annihilation focus to damages ratio is around 0.25 * 2 (bonus damages) * 1.35 (PL) = 0.675 damages

BW "not-gained" focus to damages ratio for other class would be 0.25 / [0.5 - 0.25 * 0.5)] =  0.6667

We are at similar order of magnitude (when full PEN and without further bonuses benefitting more to Soul Annihilation such as lashes/sneak attacks). That's a bit "non-deactivable" "potentially ranged" soul annhiliation for everybody. I think it's OK when it comes to balance.

Edited February 6 by Elric Galad

[yorname]

I was thinking maybe something can be done with SA too, but wouldn't it be extra complicated to describe, since SA is a core ability? I guess you need to make another version of BW for soulblade? Saying "does more damage with a tier 3 upgrade" in SA description at lv1 is weird.

[SenSx]

Thanks Elric for the update.

You confirm that some class specific changes (trickster nerf) and racial traits don't work on existants saves ?

It has to be on new created characters ?

[Elric Galad]

10 minutes ago, SenSx said:

Thanks Elric for the update.

You confirm that some class specific changes (trickster nerf) and racial traits don't work on existants saves ?

It depends but they may not if they are always active.

Trickster nerf shoudn't work unfortunately.

10 minutes ago, SenSx said:

It has to be on new created characters ?

Yop, can't do better

[Elric Galad]

21 minutes ago, yorname said:

I was thinking maybe something can be done with SA too, but wouldn't it be extra complicated to describe, since SA is a core ability? I guess you need to make another version of BW for soulblade? Saying "does more damage with a tier 3 upgrade" in SA description at lv1 is weird.

Yes, just a note for soulblade BW. 

The actual effect will be coded within SA though, but you won't get indication it is there, only by SB BW.

 

Not entirely sure about setting BW to 25% raw lash. Feels a bit powercreeping.

But the SA change part would fix a big part of the issue.

Edited February 6 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

18 hours ago, yorname said:

But I agree the lash can't be too high because the AoE applications you mentioned. I'm still rooting for your 0.625 SW/BW solution

I changed my mind again cause I feared Cipher could become too much of a martial damages dealer, and I'm going to pick this solution you were rooting for.

 

SW/BW 0.625 focus per damages

BW generates 75% of DW focus vs full penetration without further lashes.

But I will still pick something from my previous solution, SA damages increased with BW, but only x1.33 :

With BW :        primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 3] * [1 + 0.05 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)

BW generates 75% focus from DW so multiplicating by 1.33 will ensure similar damages for the raw damages part.

 

This is the safest solution cause it does not create raw lash monsters, but ensure DW does not provide a better raw lash than BW by the magic of SA.

 

Final (I hope) nutshell :

- BW does x1.2 weapon damages from DW
- BW provides x0.75 focus for spells from DW when full PEN (better ratio when underPEN, slightly worse with other lashes)
- BW does the same damages as DW for SA raw damages part with similar previous attack (the weapon attack part will do x1.2 weapon damages)

[Ivanfyodorovich]

I'm experiencing what seems like a bug, and wanted to check with folks before I do further testing. I'm playing a solo Corpse Eater on Normal, trying out all of the BPM updates. 

What I'm seeing is that my Corpse Eater food buffs are being cleared arbitrarily (not forced rests, as far as I can tell). I've at least observed it in Neketaka, but it may be happening other places, as well. This is annoying, slightly, but moreso, because I'm trying to maintain an injury to use Rekvu gear and the updated Vengeful Defeat passive. 

I need to test if this applies to any food buffs, but before I do, I wanted to see if other folks have observed similar behavior. 

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

I'm experiencing what seems like a bug, and wanted to check with folks before I do further testing. I'm playing a solo Corpse Eater on Normal, trying out all of the BPM updates. 

What I'm seeing is that my Corpse Eater food buffs are being cleared arbitrarily (not forced rests, as far as I can tell). I've at least observed it in Neketaka, but it may be happening other places, as well. This is annoying, slightly, but moreso, because I'm trying to maintain an injury to use Rekvu gear and the updated Vengeful Defeat passive. 

I need to test if this applies to any food buffs, but before I do, I wanted to see if other folks have observed similar behavior. 

My current run is with a Corpse Eater and his joyful companions. 

I think I have seen food buff cleared unexpectedly, but I have no idea if it's related to a forced rest because I have never been paying too much attention to that. All food buffs cleared, not just Kith Food. I'm pretty sure I have seen it with Inn bonus too (rested at Luminous Bath before the Quest... After a while there was only Adra Glow bonus, but not the rest one). 

I didn't care cause I love RP my party resting and having a good meal. 

 

Now for related BPM changes : all food was set to stacking but how could this be related? Also inn bonuses were already stacking and weren't modified by BPM so it can't explain why they went away too.

 

Possible theory : this is a vanilla bug, but the reason no one every spotted it was because once a food bonus was transformed into a stacking passive, it somehow becomes immune to the bug. 

Have you ever noted that inn bonus mysteriously go away in Vanilla game ? 

Edited February 8 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

On 2/6/2024 at 5:32 PM, Elric Galad said:

SW/BW 0.625 focus per damages

BW generates 75% of DW focus vs full penetration without further lashes.

SA damages increased with BW, but only x1.33 :

With BW :        primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 3] * [1 + 0.05 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)

BW generates 75% focus from DW so multiplicating by 1.33 will ensure similar damages for the raw damages part.

 

On 2/6/2024 at 5:32 PM, Elric Galad said:

Final (I hope) nutshell :

- BW does x1.2 weapon damages from DW
- BW provides x0.75 focus for spells from DW when full PEN (better ratio when underPEN, slightly worse with other lashes)
- BW does the same damages as DW for SA raw damages part with similar previous attack (the weapon attack part will do x1.2 weapon damages)

OK, I'm happy to announce that I haven't changed my mind again for about 48h, so I'm quite comfortable to implement this solution.

That said, BW may only increase SA damages by 1.33 when active (technical constraint, can't do otherwise). Which means it won't work at full focus.

That said, this isn't too much illogical since the bonus will be said to come from BW so it makes sense if it works only when active. Also SA is already a bit worse at full focus since missing the +20% Bonus damages for both the weapon and added raw damages, and CP raw damages lash for the weapon attack part. 

(so use BPM Tenuous Grasp or whatever)

[Ivanfyodorovich]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Have you ever noted that inn bonus mysteriously go away in Vanilla game ?

I’ll check regular food and try without mods and report back. 
 

I know it’s not forced rest, though; because my injury remains.

 

[NotDumbEnough]

20 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

I'm experiencing what seems like a bug, and wanted to check with folks before I do further testing. I'm playing a solo Corpse Eater on Normal, trying out all of the BPM updates. 

What I'm seeing is that my Corpse Eater food buffs are being cleared arbitrarily (not forced rests, as far as I can tell). I've at least observed it in Neketaka, but it may be happening other places, as well. This is annoying, slightly, but moreso, because I'm trying to maintain an injury to use Rekvu gear and the updated Vengeful Defeat passive. 

I need to test if this applies to any food buffs, but before I do, I wanted to see if other folks have observed similar behavior. 

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/354

Are you running this mod just to be sure? I usually do no rest runs and I have never seen my resting bonuses clear unless I intentionally rest.

Edited February 8 by NotDumbEnough

[Ivanfyodorovich]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/354

Are you running this mod just to be sure? I usually do no rest runs and I have never seen my resting bonuses clear unless I intentionally rest.

I was convinced this wasn't it, but I looked at the list of them on the wiki, and tested the Luminous Bathhouse Quest. In that case, I kept my injury, but lost the food buff. It's possible I just happened to hit a handful of these without realizing it. I'll keep testing. 

[SenSx]

On 2/6/2024 at 1:43 PM, Elric Galad said:

It depends but they may not if they are always active.

Trickster nerf shoudn't work unfortunately.

Yop, can't do better

Ok thanks.

Do you plan to make other changes that will only be effective on new characters ? 

I'm hesitant to start a new game or wait.

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, SenSx said:

Ok thanks.

Do you plan to make other changes that will only be effective on new characters ? 

I'm hesitant to start a new game or wait.

Only Serafen Wild Mind

[SenSx]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Only Serafen Wild Mind

Interesting...

 

Btw, I am hesitant in using the change to Salvation of time from the nerf package.

I understand the purpose of removing some game breaking tactics, but it looses its flexibility in my opinion.

Now you have to plan things in advance.

However I wonder now what new setup or synergies it opens up, could be interesting as well.

Edited February 9 by SenSx

[Ivanfyodorovich]

11 minutes ago, SenSx said:

Btw, I am hesitant in using the change to Salvation of time from the nerf package.

I understand the purpose of removing some game breaking tactics, but it looses its flexibility in my opinion.

Now you have to plan things in advance.

However I wonder now what new setup or synergies it opens up, could be interesting as well.

I just did a full run with all the nerfs (all megabosses) with a SC Priest of Berath and actually loved the new version of SoT. It's much more versatile and flexible - you cast it at any point in your buff sequence, and it's not wasted. It is still very powerful to extend all of your buffs in that way. With Brilliant, you can still keep your most important buffs up the whole fight, and SoT is a big part of that. It is honestly not very satisfying to extend out BDD and a million buffs infinitely once you've done it one or two times. It makes things so non-interactive. The updated SoT preserves some of the power and purpose of that, but puts limits on it that make you still feel like your risking something. 

[yorname]

Unless used for infinite loop, BPM SoT is better and easier to use in most cases. It effectively doubles buff duration for up to 24s, for one single cast it's much better than vanilla version.

I guess a theme of BPM is to reduce the impact of brilliant so the difference between having access to it or not isn't as big as vanilla, and eliminating easy access to infinite brilliant is part of it.

From my experience it's now pretty hard to do something like permanent paralyzing Dorudugan. I did it only because I was playing a tactician/wizard. Cipher can't get enough focus to fuel brilliant to 2 or 3 casters even with SoT. But in most other cases I'm glad it can extend buffs for a much longer time.