Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

[...] don't forget that NPC, especially Kiths, often use the same abilities as players. They are buffed too, even more since their builds are much more random than experienced players. So it makes their crappy abilities much more relevant. 

Good point.

[dunehunter]

I feel like lv13-14 is a checkpoint where the difficulty drops dramatically, maybe it's because the SC casters get its high lvl spells?

[thelee]

2 hours ago, dunehunter said:

I feel like lv13-14 is a checkpoint where the difficulty drops dramatically, maybe it's because the SC casters get its high lvl spells?

i feel like it's because it's where the vanilla base game basically ended. you could take on the guardian at ukaizo at level 12-14 and be just fine. it was honestly a struggle to get to level 19-20.

they added more mid-high level content via the DLC, and they added megabosses (for level 20) but for the most part the main game only gets level scaling, so nothing fundamentally changes this inflection point. i mean, they tuned up PotD but it seemed over-optimized for port maje and nekataka: the early-mid-game quests are brutal to take on when underleveled. perhaps their min-max testers didn't have good gear for the later quests/encounter balancing, so all this means is that e.g. the guardian of ukaizo is always red skulled, but even after you kill all the megabosses and the guardian gets the 4x "the last megaboss" buff for skyrocketingly-high AR/defense/health, the encounter itself is still a mid level encounter and is rather easy to dispatch, just more time-consuming and tedious.

Edited July 20, 2020 by thelee

[Scrapulous]

Hi. I'm a little late to the party. I installed the patch for an arcane archer playthrough, and I am very much enjoying it. I am using Ranger powers that I would never use before, like Deadly Surprise and Bonded Fury (I love that this is more like other self-buffs now with no recovery), and in general this feels like a very good set of buffs for Rangers. Power choice is much less obvious now.

I will say that I still find Heart Seeker to be a weak power - it's rare to get enemies lined up without allies in the area of effect, and hits don't trigger Driving Flight, while Twinned Shots does. It's hard to imagine a situation where Heart Seeker is better than Twinned Shots in terms of damage, so it becomes a debuff power. By this level, an Arcane Archer with Frostseeker is dealing so much damage that the debuff here seems like a big waste of Bond.

I'm not sure how to fix it, but maybe making it Foe-only would help?

Scrap

[Elric Galad]

12 hours ago, Scrapulous said:

Hi. I'm a little late to the party. I installed the patch for an arcane archer playthrough, and I am very much enjoying it. I am using Ranger powers that I would never use before, like Deadly Surprise and Bonded Fury (I love that this is more like other self-buffs now with no recovery), and in general this feels like a very good set of buffs for Rangers. Power choice is much less obvious now.

It's nice to hear.

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I will say that I still find Heart Seeker to be a weak power - it's rare to get enemies lined up without allies in the area of effect, and hits don't trigger Driving Flight, while Twinned Shots does. It's hard to imagine a situation where Heart Seeker is better than Twinned Shots in terms of damage, so it becomes a debuff power. By this level, an Arcane Archer with Frostseeker is dealing so much damage that the debuff here seems like a big waste of Bond.

I'm not sure how to fix it, but maybe making it Foe-only would help?

Scrap

I've tried to make it foe-only but unless I'm mistaken, it is one of the rare case where it is hardcoded.

I'm still not too worried about it. It still carries a permanent Tier 3 Constitution debuff in the current mod version.

The fact that it can't be used every encounter doesn't prevent it from being a top tier ability vs boss. It targets Deflection, permanently decreases fortitude by -10 and remove 25% of base health with one shot (in addition to its damage). If the target isn't resistant to Con Affliction, evey crowd control or DoT would be increased by 50% for the rest of the encounter. You have to think about it as a kind of Ultimate trick, sort of desperate measure.
It's more an utility than a damage ability, though, I agree with that.
If you need AoE with ranger, Melee + Mortar + Whirling strikes is great. If you need single target DPS, Twinned Shot is there.
The greatness of Single Class Ranger is that he has extremely varied attacks, so you have to choose the right one.

One thing that can help its spammability could be to fire it "through your pet". Removing the permanent Enfeebled is relatively easy with Hardy Companion or Bounded fury (or just not care and sacrifice your pet for perma Nimble and Tenacious).
Or go with melee/ranged weapon.
Or just go to melee range and jump back with evasive roll.

That said, it might also be a build issue. As an Arcane Archer, you might simply have too many attack abilities, so an additional one might be too much.
You might consider a passive instead.
Or just keep Heart Seeker for (Mega)bosses. My version of Druid's "Touch of Death" is also rarely useful, but is still critical when needed. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Scrapulous]

Aha! I failed to notice that the Enfeebled affliction from Heart Seeker is permanent. That definitely changes my opinion of it; I see the utility for boss fights. Thanks for explaining!

[Elric Galad]

I am currently thinking about tweaking up Godlikes for next patch. I think they should have powerful effects to compensate the absence of helmet. As a general rule, I think all of them should have 2 effects (to avoid Relying on only 1), one of them should not be too situational, and these effects should preferrably be scaling since no one has helmet in the early game.

 

So my ideas :

 

Nature Godlike : PL bonus is quite strong but a bit lacking compared to endgame helmet. So my plan is to add them a passive "Evergreen Vigor" that adds 5% + 1% per cl level to healing received. +25% in endgame would feel nice, maybe a bit strong when combined with the PL bonus. Maybe limited to Hurt or above, so would favor constant regeneration over critical healing ?

 

Moon Godlike : I might consider tweaking to change bit their tidal waves a bit, but I also wish to add a passive "Crescent Purity" 5% + 1% cl lvl to raw damages resisance (as voidward do). This would combine well with tidal waves for classes that inflict themselves lots of self damages.

 

Death Godlike : Pallid Fate is fine but very combo relates, so my Idea is to tweak Death Usher up to 10% +2% per cl lvl. +50% in late game feels nice but considering that there are insta Death effects when a foe is near Death, so I don't think it would be too strong. It would have good synergy with On Kill effects though.

 

Fire Godlike : a little trickier since it already has 2 conditional effects. My mod already set fire AR to +4, AR under bloodied to +2 and buffed the fire Shield damages. My plan is to make the fire Shield effect unconditional (so less situational...) and tweak a bit my current buffed values so it won't be strong early game.

 

What would you think of these changes ?

Edited August 20, 2020 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

22 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

so my Idea is to tweak Death Usher up to 10% +2% per cl lvl.

that seems really low early on and having a separate scaling mechanism than PL seems odd.

one suggestion is to make it scale starting at bloodied, a lot like finishing blow. you can afford to have a larger "final" bonus because on average the bonus will still be relatively small, but it also feels more relevant because near death is such a narrow window typically.

22 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

My plan is to make the fire Shield effect unconditional (so less situational...)

this means all the time and not just bloodied? coupled with the other stuff, seems a little... too good.

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

that seems really low early on and having a separate scaling mechanism than PL seems odd.

Well, the pb here is that PL scaling for non class ability may lead to Monastic Unarmed training oddness. Between 2 evils, I'd rather go class level scaling. There are some cl lvl scaling in the game yet, such as Cipher Focus or Tough talent.

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one suggestion is to make it scale starting at bloodied, a lot like finishing blow. you can afford to have a larger "final" bonus because on average the bonus will still be relatively small, but it also feels more relevant because near death is such a narrow window typically.

Possibly. The fact it is low early on isn't a Big concern for me because it competes with early headgear. At lvl 8, you'll already be higher than current value. I really think that scaling passives help balancing Godlike traits with headgear.

A finishing blow style bonus would fit, but "Near Death" effect sort of mirror Pallid Fate which is good from a fluff point of view I think. Also an effect which would scaling with both level and target health loss would be complicated to describe.

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this means all the time and not just bloodied? coupled with the other stuff, seems a little... too good.

Yup. But I agree that the values currently in my mod are too high for this.

I plan to go back to 2-4 damages 7 PEN with +20% damages and +0.5 PEN per PL scaling. PEN would be quite good but endgame damages still low (comparable to Darcozzi fire Shield in endgame rather than a true fire Shield).

I really think that a Godlike race that does almost nothing while health is above 50% has too narrow build possibilities. That is what I want to change.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

10 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I plan to go back to 2-4 damages 7 PEN with +20% damages and +0.5 PEN per PL scaling. PEN would be quite good but endgame damages still low (comparable to Darcozzi fire Shield in endgame rather than a true fire Shield).

i think that's probably ok.

 

reflectin on nature godlike, if you really feel like buffing it up a bit i think a smaller heal bonus. i do frankly think that +1 PL for a headslot is more than enough of a tradeoff, because a stackable unconditional +1 PL is just such a hard benefit to replicate. from a symmetry perspective giving the nature godlike something like the others makes sense but it really shouldn't be that significant. a nature godlike is a build-around race in a way very few other races are like.

Edited August 21, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

Reflectin on nature godlike, if you really feel like buffing it up a bit i think a smaller heal bonus. i do frankly think that +1 PL for a headslot is more than enough of a tradeoff, because a stackable unconditional +1 PL is just such a hard benefit to replicate. from a symmetry perspective giving the nature godlike something like the others makes sense but it really shouldn't be that significant. a nature godlike is a build-around race in a way very few other races are like.

Sure, I'm not 100% sure about this one. Still the +1 PL bonus feels a bit dry, especially since it's not guaranteed (even if it isn't too conditional either). Compared to a Stone of Power (since we're speaking about equipment slot), it feels meh. Sure stone of Power only works for a fight every day, but it is still more convenient for boss battle and add INT on top of PL.

Healing received felt okay fluff wise but I agree it is a strong bonus. I tried to give it a value comparable to the healing done talent, even a bit more since healing done is arguably better on a healer, but I guess +15% healing done is simply a very good talent.

I think the idea that it heals less the less health you have fits Nature Godlike fluff and is interesting mechanically. I still have to set the "right"values. I'm even considering up to 25% healing received but only for Barely Injured characters.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

32 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Compared to a Stone of Power (since we're speaking about equipment slot), it feels meh. Sure stone of Power only works for a fight every day, but it is still more convenient for boss battle and add INT on top of PL.

porque no los dos, though? for characters who really prize PL, both are great, which is sorta the point. and stone of power is extremely good if you exploit the trick to get infinite charges of it. if the nature godlike's +1 PL was, say, an active bonus that didn't stack, it'd be much more mediocre. You're basically trading a headgear slot for Prestige, which a tier 9 talent. (and you can still get Prestige)

(perhaps it's worth mentioning that moon godlikes effectively get something similar because their pallegina quest reward gives them +1 PL at night, which I would totally pick over a lot of necklaces, including stone of power given that i don't like to exploit that)

 

i missed the part where the bonus gets more significant the more health you get - i think that might be better; though i think 20% is a better upper bound, because i feel like a typical early heal would be 10% bonus, which is subtle enough that it feels a bit more OK while still being something, and it withers away below that.

Edited August 21, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

18 minutes ago, thelee said:

I missed the part where the bonus gets more significant the more health you get - i think that might be better; though i think 20% is a better upper bound, because i feel like a typical early heal would be 10% bonus, which is subtle enough that it feels a bit more OK while still being something, and it withers away below that.

Yup, in the initial post I added that the bonus could only apply to Hurt or ABOVE (so not to bloodied or near Death).

+10% healing received +0.5% per lvl when Hurt or above would fit I think.

 

I'm also considering 20% +2% per cl lvl for Death Godlike against Near Death so it won't start too much lower from current version.

[Noqn]

I think I would prefer sticking to non-scaling bonuses tbh. Several of the best hats in the game can be purchased/liberated the moment you leave Port Maje:

• Acina's Tricorn
• Death's Maw
• Deltro's Cage Helm
• Heaven's Cacophony
• Helm of the Falcon
• Rekvu's Fractured Casque
• Thaos' Headdress
• Whitewitch Mask

So I don't think it would serve a purpose since hat progression isn't linear either. It would be inconsistent with the other racial abilities, too.

 

Death Godlike hit a sweet spot in vanilla imo, but I'm all in favor of buffing the others.

 

The P&P adaption gives each of the godlikes a unique daily ability, though pretty mundane ones. Some are inspiring though:

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Moon Godlike

Tidal Pull - Once per day, moon godlike can pull a lightweight object (10 lbs. / 4.5 kg) to them from up to 9 hexes away.  They can exert no fine control over the movement of the object and the object must travel to them in a straight line (barring minor physical inter-ference).

How about giving Moon Godlikes a per-encounter Pull of Eora? Though instead of a Pulsing Hazard it'd just fire once and have a smaller AoE for  balance.
Maybe call it "Pull of Belafa"

Edited August 24, 2020 by Noqn

[Elric Galad]

16 hours ago, Noqn said:

I think I would prefer sticking to non-scaling bonuses tbh. Several of the best hats in the game can be purchased/liberated the moment you leave Port Maje:

• Acina's Tricorn
• Death's Maw
• Deltro's Cage Helm
• Heaven's Cacophony
• Helm of the Falcon
• Rekvu's Fractured Casque
• Thaos' Headdress
• Whitewitch Mask

So I don't think it would serve a purpose since hat progression isn't linear either. It would be inconsistent with the other racial abilities, too.

To some extant, but that still cost money to buy. Godlikes also enable you to prioritarize other party member for helmet.

Also they would be more powerful on Port Maje if they came already scaled. And Port Maje is really significant in term of tediousness for a given run.

Damages and healing from Moon and Fire Godlike are also better to scale as for similar effects from abilities anyway.

But if other people think like you, I might consider removing the scaling from Death Usher and my new Nature and Moon godlikes passive.

16 hours ago, Noqn said:

Death Godlike hit a sweet spot in vanilla imo, but I'm all in favor of buffing the others.

Well, not everyone seems to agree :

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/117267-death-godlike-vs-human/

Yup, Pallid Fate is great, but it requires a lots a building around to work. That's why I plan to buff Death Usher a bit instead.

In the right conditions, Death Godlike would be great, but at the cost of a lots of efforts, so it's normal if it is rewarded a bit.

16 hours ago, Noqn said:

The P&P adaption gives each of the godlikes a unique daily ability, though pretty mundane ones. Some are inspiring though:

How about giving Moon Godlikes a per-encounter Pull of Eora? Though instead of a Pulsing Hazard it'd just fire once and have a smaller AoE for  balance.
Maybe call it "Pull of Belafa"

It would have been a good idea but I specifically wanted to add a Passive to Moon Godlike so they stay relevant once Tidal Waves are consumed.

By the way 5-25% raw damage resistance eventually felt a tiny too situational (better for some classes) for my taste, so I plan to also add a +4 Corrode AR on top of this. 

[Noqn]

Those are all fair points!

[saltynoodles]

I'm going to use this mod for my upcoming second playthrough and just wanted to offer encouragement and thanks for your work.

[Chunanda]

Hey, I would like to report a bug with the rangers shadowed hunters ability. Every attack with the pet seems to be applying the dot until combat ends. You can even effect multiple enemies at once so it isn't just limited to the first enemy it only happens after the ability has been activated though.

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, Chunanda said:

Hey, I would like to report a bug with the rangers shadowed hunters ability. Every attack with the pet seems to be applying the dot until combat ends. You can even effect multiple enemies at once so it isn't just limited to the first enemy it only happens after the ability has been activated though.

Aouch, I'll look into it for next release.

[SArgentus]

Do you have any plans as to buffing the Island Aumaua racial? I was considering just cobbling together a small mod of my own - in keeping with the immunity towards environmental effects, a small defense bonus against ground effects (like the desert wurm hatchling) could be fitting, but it's hard to find the sweet-spot between useless and overpowered.

 

I apologize if this ends up double-posting, I'm not sure if the first comment went through, was rejected or simply lost

[Elric Galad]

14 hours ago, SArgentus said:

Do you have any plans as to buffing the Island Aumaua racial? I was considering just cobbling together a small mod of my own - in keeping with the immunity towards environmental effects, a small defense bonus against ground effects (like the desert wurm hatchling) could be fitting, but it's hard to find the sweet-spot between useless and overpowered.

That's a good question. I did not plan to update non-godlike racials cause they are overall quite weak and mostly here for fluff. Still Island Aumaua felt a tad weak albeit unique and and I wondered about it a couple of times. I discarded changing it because of conservative approach until now.

I like the idea of Ground Attack resistance cause it is thematically consistent with Slog Zone resistance and still make Island Aumaua racial a bit less situational. Won't be OP I presume.
I think it would worth including. How much is the bonus exactly ? 

[SArgentus]

1 minute ago, Elric Galad said:

How much is the bonus exactly ? 

That is mainly what I've been having issues with, as defense-bonus have increasing returns from what I've heard, a small bonus of +5 or +8 vs ground attacks might not seem like much, but could potentially be very good or completely insignificant. A percentile hit-to-graze or miss (like a defensive version of Boreal Dwarf) might be more controllable? Once again, I feel that I don't know enough about Deadfire mechanics to safely throw out a number.

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, SArgentus said:

That is mainly what I've been having issues with, as defense-bonus have increasing returns from what I've heard, a small bonus of +5 or +8 vs ground attacks might not seem like much, but could potentially be very good or completely insignificant. A percentile hit-to-graze or miss (like a defensive version of Boreal Dwarf) might be more controllable? Once again, I feel that I don't know enough about Deadfire mechanics to safely throw out a number.

But how much is it for Wurms ? (that is a good basis)
Something around +10 is probably OK. It is aligned with the old PoE1 Talents against specific attacks.

[SArgentus]

44 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

But how much is it for Wurms ? (that is a good basis)

The desert wurm hatchling is +5 vs ground attacks on the wearer, but pets are generally all over the place when it comes to how helpful the effect is if you ask me.

Edit: Yeah, +10 would probably be noticeable and make the sub-race more appealing (especially against Druids and Wizards?)

Edited September 8, 2020 by SArgentus

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, SArgentus said:

The desert wurm hatchling is +5 vs ground attacks on the wearer, but pets are generally all over the place when it comes to how helpful the effect is if you ask me.

Edit: Yeah, +10 would probably be noticeable and make the sub-race more appealing (especially against Druids and Wizards?)

Sure, but it might have other purposes, such as putting your Island Aumaua Tank in the middle of your own wizard's Slicken.
I'm hesitating between +10 and +20 by similarity with Paladins/Fighters resistance Abilities. I guess +10 would be more conservative, especially for a secondary effect.