Looking for Help: Which class combinations to choose

[Dyxx]

Hello folks,

I'm thinking and re-thinking which combinations of classes make sense, which can benefit from each other and synergies well.

But when I think I'm done, I'm not done.

I can't find the final solution.

Maybe some of your input can help me solve this mess.

I have some classes in mind for my party PotD all upscaled.

My tank will be a SC Forbidden Fist.

Now I want following classes in my team, in any combination that makes sense. I'm even open for other good synergising suggestions.

Those classes are:

Priest, Druid, Wizard, Pala, Ranger and Cipher.

My actual go to town party would be:

Ascendant

Priest of Eothas/Lifegiver 

Bloodmage/Bleak Walker 

Stalker/Bloodmage 

I'm excited for your suggestions !

Greetings Dyxx

Edited April 8, 2020 by Dyxx

[Boeroer]

What's the problem? Looks fine.

SC Ascendant is a bit weaker than some multiclass combos like Helwalker/Ascendant or Streetfighter/Ascendant in the earlier parts of the game. But as soon as SC Ascandant gets Time Siphon he's an absolute beast. And of course you'll get access to Driving Echoes for your other casters and Shared Nightmare which is superb with Ascendants/while ascended.

Is anybody of your guys wielding a Morning Star? 'Cause no proper playthrough without a Morning Star.
I have a hunch that you want to use Disintegrate and Takedown Combo + Forbidden Fist's enfeebling effect. Therefore a Morning Star would be very helpful to land those reliably. Both Takedown Combo and Disintegrate target Fortitude. CON- and MIG afflictions would help further. Looking at your Stalker/Bloodmage: I once had a Stalker/Wizard with the Morning Star Willbreaker (using Takedown Combo + Essential Phantom with Draining Touch) and it was pretty good. So maybe that's an option?

Don't know if you know it, but your Bloodmage/Bleak Walker can get +10% corrosive lash and +10% burning lash for all the wizard spells: with the soulbound arquebus Blightheart and Eternal Devotion. It's pretty neat to add 20% multiplicative dmg to your spells. Has to play ranged then though because switching away from Blighheart will remove the 10% corrosove lash immedialtely. 
Another great (really great) Arcane Knight is Steel Garrote/Bloodmage with Whispers of the Endless Paths. Melee then of course. Max out deflection and use Offensive Parry. You will drain health faster than you can lose it while damaging foes at the same time. It's very easy to use Blood Sacrifice and cast spells atthe same time because Offensive Parry will also happen while casting. So you're doing melee dmg and healing while casting. Pretty cool. Offensive Parry itself dazes enemies so you don't even need to acitively afflict enemies around that guy if you don't want to. He's afflicting enemies "passively" all by himself. 

How is the Priest of Eothas/Livegiver supposed to look like? 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

I personally wouldn't build a tank monk. Monks have the highest single target DPS in the game and can be insane mobile disruptors. Doesn't mean they can't be a tank of course, but Paladins have so many built in tank stats that I would choose them instead to be your tank. They even gain a passive that gains DR while standing still. Perfect for "tanking".

After you get Whispers of the Wind your monk will hardly tank anything, because after every 1-2 strikes they will be untargettable for a few seconds breaking any form of engagement and letting enemies seek out a new target. 

Imo SC ascendant is fine, but it may not be optimal. If you use Kitchen stove then you can instantly gain full focus at the start of battle. Outside of that it will have a harder time to gain focus and then it can be in trouble because you will want to be ascended as much as possible. Combine it with any hard hitting combat class as  to make up for it. The loss of power level won't impact it all that much. It's better to have multiple ascended stages that are a little bit less powerful during a battle than having a single bit more powerful stage.

Personally I would not combine the Lifegiver with Priest because of the amount of time they need to cast abilities. Best to split up the classes over different characters I think. But priest is probably a bit superfluous with the wizards and druid you already have. Maybe better to go SC druid and have access to Great Mailstrom for ultimate decimation of your enemy.

[Boeroer]

The Forbidden Fist was chosen because if its Enfeebling effect in synergy with Disintegrate (Ascendant) and Takedown Combo (Stalker/Bloodmage). 

Since a Forbidden Fist profits from maxed out RES and reduced hostile effects enchantments enormously he can as well be played as an offensively capable tank (with Tuotilo's Palm). Also because Forbidden Fist doesn't work with Heartbeat Drumming and Swift Flurry.

That tank can uphold very high defenses, has unlimited resources and can spam Forbidden Fist non-stop while using his main weapon as stat-stick only (or backup weapon - e.g. Kapana Taga for +2 engagement or immunity to flanked). Every instance of Forbidden Fist will only last under 2 secs (Hylea's Talons will do the same basically), giving the Monk a wound and healing when it expires. Triggers Rooting Pain all the time. Also triggers Crucible of Suffering every few secs. Enlightened Agony will provide +5 INT and Iron Wheel (since Turning Wheel doesn't work with Forbidden fist anyway), giving that monk enormous Will, Fortitude and good Deflection and Reflex (RES, Lightning Strikes, Weapon & Shield Style). 

Imagined Pain will work extremely well with such a Monk. Every miss on him results in a wound. Parting Sorrow allows special synergy with White Witch Mask or a Wizard: terrified enemies will break engagement and give the Monk wounds. 

He doesn't need resistances because afflictions only last a few seconds and will give wounds and bonus defense. 

It's not a conventional tank but a pretty great mix of offense and defense once he comes online.

Whispers of the Wind problem: correct. But if you use Ajamut's Stalking Cloak with WotW the enemies can't rush to your other party members because they will be stunned. Even if that might not prevent rushing 100%: the rest of the party seems to be plenty sturdy to handle a few enemies by themselves. 

Alternative would be to use Inner Death instead of WotW since it as the same "problems" as Forbidden Fist: no Turning Wheel, no Swift Flurry/HBD. But really good with Empowered Strikes. Since it uses Mortification and you won't use that a lot elsewhere (since you will use Forbidden Fist most of times) this is also a good use for that resource. 

Priest is never superfluous because of inspirations, Devotions and Salvation of Time. Especially Salvation of Time if you have an Ascendant with Ancestor's Memory since that creates an awesome synergy that lets you prolong Ascension a lot. But I agree that it might be better to not stack all the healing spells onto one character. He will hardly use them all in a single encounter due to casting times. Also there's a ton of micro already with the other chars and a caster/caster combo adds a lot more. I thought about Priest of Eothas/Troubadour with Ancient Memory + Mercy and Kindness maybe?

Ascended does indeed work well with some multiclasses - especially Helwalker. This one is supposed to cast Disintegrate a lot. So SC reaches that a lot earlier and also Ancestor's Memory and Driving Echoes (maybe the most important advantages) and also gets +3 Power Level which translates to +15% multiplicative dmg (compared to a Helwalker's +30%max additive and +50% duration via INT). Also casts a lot faster during Ascension with the help of Time Parasite and has bigger AoE due to Shared Nightmare (very late game stuff though). At the same time Helwalker is more fun earlier, has a longer Ascension Time in general (+10 INT) and will most likely generate focus a lot quicker (lashes and stuff). He can also use Soul Ignition as an earlier (but weaker) Disintegrate until he gets that. Works also well with Enfeebled and Takedown Combo. Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming can fill up focus instantly once they trigger. Which is pretty cool.

I guess a multiclass would be more fun overall. Other alternatives to Helwalker are Barbarian/Ascendant (Blood Thirst + Disintegrate is cool), Ascendant/Bloodmage (Wall of Draining prolongs Ascension and stuff like Borrowed Instincts, also great focus generation with Spirit Lance), Ascendant/Streetfighter (super fast casting recovery with blunderbuss, very fast focus generation - great with mortars, too). 

Another option to cast Disintegrate all the time is Beguiler: you can alternate between Phantom Foes, Disintegrate, Secret Horrors, Disintegrate and so on since usually one big Deception creates enough focus for Disintegrate. No need for weapon dmg then. SC Beguiler is very nice with all the Will passives the Cipher can get and with Shared Nightmare. Also nice as multiclass.

Or Psion/Bloodmage: Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure lets you generate focus undisturbed while casting Walls and CC from invisibility (doesn't break then) and once the focus is full: cast Disintegrate from invisibility (that will break then). Recast Brilliant Departure and repeat.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

All valid points, although I'm not hooked on the RES build for Forbidden fist. Clarity of Agony does all the work by itself for the forbidden fist ability to reduce all those penalties to almost 0 duration. I just feel that if you have one of the most mobile assassination classes on the team and then use him to stand still and absorb hits you're not getting the most out of the class. But of course that's more of a min max debate and has nothing to do with what is possible. Tank Forbidden Fist is definitely viable.

[Boeroer]

Clarity of Agony is nice, but it costs 2 wounds and has recovery. Better to only use it against the long-lasting stuff in my opinion. Because If you have to use it to reduce Forbidden Fist Curse you spend 2 wounds for gaining one which isn't that great. 

The maxed out RES, combined with items and food that reduce hostile effect duration, makes sure that you can spam it with (nearly) no pause, get lots of wounds and healing all the time in the process. And since your RES is maxed anyway you can as well use that guy as tank. 

Not the only viable way to play a Forbidden Fist of course, but a nice one if you are looking for a good combo of offense and defense - e.g. if you don't like the usual damage sponge tank tht only eats damage and engages but doesn't do much else. 

Point with not using a Monk's good mobility: yeah, that's right. But if you want to use Rooting Pain, Blade Turning and Parting Sorrow/Imagined Pain you can't zip around too much anyways. Instruments of Pain let's this more stationary Forbidden Fist tank attack enemies at ca. 6m range - so that isn't such a big deal once you get that.

But yeah: the zip-zap of a mobile monk can be fun. Maybe another argument for an additional monk multiclass with that Ascendent.

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

How about a RES build forbidden fist / goldpact paladin? He's never ever going to die XD, plus if he downs an enemy you get to have that sweet +12 all defenses AoE on your party. Doesn't stack with Moonwell so... but in longer fights definitely cool to pick up.

[Boeroer]

Really, it doesn't stack? That's weird since it's a passive. Shouldn't that stack with everything?

Like... with Crucible of Suffering (which would be a nice stacking of defenses indeed)? I know that Enduring Beacon wouldn't stack (because active). 

Nice idea with the Paladin. I think I would use Steel Garrote because an enemy who's hit by Forbidden Fist ability already qualifies for draining. And Gilded Enmity doesn't stack with Iron Wheel iirc.
Eternal Devotion works with Forbidden Fist ability, so that's cool, too.

Also the high RES (and also Clarity) would make Sacred Immolation's self damage ridiculously short and thus no problem. It would even give you a wound and some healing then.

And you'll get Lay on Hands which is always nice to have. 

[AeonsLegend]

Oh perhaps it does stack then you're right.

[Dyxx]

Thank you both for your response. 

First it's good to read that my suggested party isn't bad and that melting my brain wasn pointless !

I don't know how to quote on my mobile so I'll try to cover everything without quoting. 

I'll start from the top.

About the Stalker/Bloodmage -> I've read your guide/explanation in another thread and it sounds really interesting. I wanted to include a Ranger in my party and I'm a new Wizard fan, so that's great. 

I like the idea with the Phantoms and using the Wizard spells more supportive or for a big nuke via Takedown Combo. Also the AC is one more body in the front. This will be my go to Morningstar wielder, cause everyone needs one for Body Blows.

You are right Boeroer that I want to use Enfeeble, Takedown Combo and Disintegrate. It shall be a heart part of my party for the tough ones and megabosses. 

About the Bleak Walker/Bloodmage:

I thought about going the lancing route. AOE FoDs seems pretty strong, and my Paladin won't run out off zeal anytime.

But using the Blightheart sounds interesting too, but puts it more into a caster role. So FoD seems to play a lower role. I don't know what to think about it right now but it's something think about !

The Garrote/Bloodmage is really simple but brilliant ! This seems to be very good but WoteP attacks in a cone and I'm afraid I'll kill my own frontline. 

Till now it's the FF, R/W + AC (+ P/W), looks quite messy. But the idea is a favorite of mine since I read it !

About the Priest of Eothas/Lifegiver:

Its basically just a buffer and healer.

I like priests a lot and I wanted to include a druid, cause druids always come to short for me I  every game. 

I'm sure this comb is a overkill and under other circumstances I wouldn't play my priest as a buffer.

I thought about Wael/Helwalker -> buffs via priest part and +pl buff so fists would scale to legendary and maybe play as a nature godlike. Defensive spells from Waels part and dmg from monk's side. But then bye bye druid.

And about Priest/Chanter:

I'm sorry I'm playing on PS4 and Chanters are bugged and that's the reason why I stopped my lovely Cantor, sad.

About Forbidden Fist tank:

I'm set to this. I know I could play a Swashbuckler or Herald but I don't want to. I want to take another route and try something different. This just feels good a d Boeroer already said enough about it here.

No Pala multiclass just a Forbidden Fist. But there's one question I still have. When my FF sits at 10 wounds and he would theoretically get a wound, which he can't cause he has already 10, would this trigger Rooting Pain ?

So about the Ascendant:

I'm not set on Ascendant just on Cipher.

I don't know why but somehow I have a affinity for Ascendant. I know Beguiler would be fine too and can fill focus fast while using spells. But how is this in bossfights/Megabosses ? I mostly think about that cause all other encounters are doable anyhow.  

The big plus for SC Ascendant or Beguiler for me is Time Parasit and getting all spells faster. 

My Ascendant state would be prolonged by Salvation of Time. 

For your suggestions for Cipher/Streetfighter, I thought about it but I don't know how the slower spellprogression and losing PL 8/9 will work out. All of this for faster recovery from Streetfighter and Blunderbuss synergie ? It's nice but I want my cipher as a spell machine.

Helwalker/Ascendant on the other hand is more interesting for me. The 10 Int and 10 Might are a good bonus, maybe worth losing PL 8/9 and fast progression. Played at short range with mortars. Something to think about.

I'm excited about your opinions.

[AeonsLegend]

18 minutes ago, Dyxx said:

When my FF sits at 10 wounds and he would theoretically get a wound, which he can't cause he has already 10, would this trigger Rooting Pain ?

It only triggers on gaining a wound. So you should spend your wounds every now and then. 

[Haplok]

14 hours ago, Boeroer said:

But yeah: the zip-zap of a mobile monk can be fun. Maybe another argument for an additional monk multiclass with that Ascendent.

Zip-zaping trough the battlefield with Flagellant's Path is really fun with Seeker's Fang rapier

You just need to get one crit and you can zip to another squishy in the back, the DOT from the rapier will usually take care of the rest.  Even faster if it procs Swift Flurry/Heartbeat (each crit does the "zero" start tick of the DOT).

And of course, the rapier's Spider's Flurry simply melts groups of bunched enemies - as it also applies the usual DOTs, but strikes everyone 3 times, so plenty of chances to crit and start the big DOT; it also Immobilizes enemies and often maximizes focus.

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Whispers of the Endless Path: the cone is foe-only! The cone works with FoD (so all attack rolls get the lashes). The key element is Offensive Parry (but you need living steel for that) Spirit Lance + FoD (Bleak Walker) + Zandethus Fury is very good as well.

Rooting Pain: If you can't gain wounds (like being at max would count) it will not trigger. You'd have to spend wounds first. It's still a great passive to have for a tankish monk since the occasional interrupt can mess up enemies really bad. Spend some wound with Thunderous Blows and Enlightened Agony and such. Edit: Oops AeonsLegend already answered that, sorry.

Cipher vs. single (Mega-)Bosses: in my opinion the Psion is best here. Others might really struggle with focus generation. Psion does not. If you have a Priest you can withdraw the Psion if he gets hit too often - then he'll emerge with full focus (and healed).

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Boeroer

[Dyxx]

WoteP is for only ? Whoa good to know that !

I'm thinking about the suggested Steel Garrote/Forbidden Fist multiclass.

Trading Monks PL 8/9 for more survivability sounds fair. This should make the early game easier.

For my Cipher I think I'll go Ascendant/Helwalker. Or maybe with Streetfighter for all the +dmg passives to fill focus faster. 

If I would take FF/SG, I would kick out the Bloodmage/Bleak Walker cause no need for double Palas. I would take a SC Monk for that, maybe Helwalker.

Then the Priest of Eothas/Lifegiver would be as it is.

Otherwise I would kick out the Lifegiver and multi a Wael/Helwalker.

But wouldn't that be too much monk's?

some other suggestions ?

[Haplok]

1 hour ago, Dyxx said:

For my Cipher I think I'll go Ascendant/Helwalker. Or maybe with Streetfighter for all the +dmg passives to fill focus faster. 

Streetfighter sure is strong... but it's extreme martial prowess led me to limit casting to support only. Plus the fact that it often wants to self-inflict Perception afflictions (to trigger the special) debuffs its Accuracy (double effect: Per affliction AND lack of Per Inspiration). Which is not great for actually landing the cipher powers.

 

For more of a balance between martial and casting ability, I like the Helwalker much more. Huge aoes, durations, good Penetration, good speed...

Edited April 9, 2020 by Haplok

[AeonsLegend]

Not too sure of Streetfighter in a party. Getting flanked is harder and bloodied is a really awkward satus to be in. (between 25% and 50% hp). Most tanks don't go that low so you just don't get the benefit of the extra damage. Just the flanked one gives you extra recovery speed, but if that's all you get then I think Trickster is more useful. If you dual wield with light weapons then recovery is already really low.

[Haplok]

Well, you can stand in your own Chillfogs OR use Blunderbuss Powders Burns modal for permanent flanked status. But it does debuff your Perception (Accuracy). Recovery reduction helps with spell Recovery also, I think. So you can spam fast cast spells really fast... only when you could be doing so much martial damage, is there a point?

[Boeroer]

The most impactful part about Streetfighter is of course that Powder Burns keeps you Heated Up 100% of times which results in a 50% recovery bonus which is HUGE. Deadfire's speed bonuses are not additive so even stacking a 30% + another 30% bonus wouldn't be as good. And of course it works with spells. The recovery bonus is universal. What Heating Up also does is increasing Sneak Attack damage significantly. That's all without getting Bloodied. By the way the Streetfighter doesn't get "On the Edge" when between 50% and 25% (Bloodied) but from 50% to 0%. So Bloodied and below. On the edge increases crit damage. Nice if you have it but not crucial in this combination. 

You wouldn't use a melee Streetfighter/Cipher here but one with blunderbusses (Kitchen Stove with Thunderous Report usually fills focus right away) or even better dual mortars. Dual mortars have the advantage that they target reflex and have dual damage. Blinding Smoke from hand mortar unlocks Deathblows automatically. Also Fire in the Hole jumps (using Chain Shot - jumps with the AoE) and the Streetfighter can apply his afflictions (like Arterial Strike) in an AoE as well. Also the AoEs + jump fills up focus extremely quickly if you can target several foes at once (hello Wizard with Dazzling Lights + Pull of Eorora) especially when heated up (remember: increased Sneak Attack).

So the synergy is that the Streetfighter fills up focus extremely fast with mortars or blunderbusses, ascends and then automatically has 50% recovery bonus on spells. This is extremely good with spells which have short casting time but long recovery (see Mind Lance for example). You can cast a lot more spells during Ascension than most other combos and spend very little time with filling focus.

Cons are: Perception affliction. This will lower your deflection by 10, your AR by 1 and your Perception by 5 at nearly all times. Perception inspirations (Blessing) don't work well: the get canceled with every shot and also prevent Heating Up then

The fact that Streetfighter is so good with weapons so that you might spend more time shooting than casting: well that's not a disadvantage. If you don't need any Cipher effects at the moment you can shoot for impressive damage. But once you want to cast you will have awesome speed. Or if you want to deal AoE dmg take the mortars but if you want to deal single target damage take Disintegrate.

Helwalker/Ascendant is also very nice though. Takes a bit longer to ascend but you will stay ascended longer - on the other hand you can't dish out spell as quickly - but they will have +10 MIG and way more INT. I wouldn't call one better than the other. They play differently. Streetfighter can be a bit hectic.

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

34 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Powder Burns keeps you Heated Up 100% of times

Another blunder with the description. I never got that the wielder would be distracted. Hm, that's interesting. But then again I'm not a fan of guns.

[Haplok]

51 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Helwalker/Ascendant is also very nice though. Takes a bit longer to ascend but you will stay ascended longer (...) snip

After you go trough Old City, both will Ascend in every fight at exactly the same time: after single Kitchen Stove Thunderous Report shot.

 

Granted, it probably is seriously overpowered. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

It's 1/encounter. After the first Ascension you can't use it anymore. I mean if you don't abuse SoT + Ancestor's Memory to prolong Ascension infinitely. 

I personally would also pick Helwalker since I usually prefer longer but more controlled fights and I just like Monks better than Rogues (by far). Streetfighter is also a bit more fiddly with the friendly-fire of Powder Burns. 

[Haplok]

In most fights you don't need Ancestors Memory, 2 regular Salvations will do. Or maybe you'll Ascend only once more. Actually, I didn't pick Ancestors Memory. 

[Dyxx]

Thanks to all of you for your great work and thoughts/suggestions !

This evening Woedicas Hunting Party will start. My party is ready to be played and even ready for some RP. Not that I have been after RP but it's fine, gives it a bit more flavor.

Steel Garrote/Bloodmage:

Human, might+, int+, perception+, dex+

WoteP with Offensive Parry and later I'll try Spirit Lance.

Forbidden Fist:

Nature Godlike, resolve ++, might+, perception+

As Tank, if it doesn't work out I'll multiclass with Steel Garrote but I hope not.

Stalker/Bloodmage:

Race whatever, Lion pet, perception+, might+, dex++

With Morningstar and Takedown Combo

Ascendant/Helwalker:

Orlan (Hit to Crit), perception++, dex+, might

Double Mortar and Disintegrator

Priest of Woedica/Lifegiver:

Race whatever, might+, dex++, int+

Woedica for RP, unique spells and fists ! Lifegiver giver just for having a Druid around

 

[Lampros]

On 4/8/2020 at 10:36 AM, AeonsLegend said:

 Monks have the highest single target DPS in the game and can be insane mobile disruptors.

Huh? Is this true?

[Boeroer]

No. Not if you look at a whole playthrough. Whispers of the Wind + Resonant Touch is very strong and maybe that's what he's referring to, especially in combination with Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming, but there are so many combinations of situations, classes an abilities and items and party compositions that it's impossible to say what has the highest single target dps when it comes to the "real" playthrough. Of course you can theorize around what would be the highest dps on paper under the most preferable condition - but those discussions are moot most of times since most theory falls flat as soon as you let your theoretical super-dps-guy loose on some Risen Armsmen and such. For example a Streetfighter with blunderbuss and Vanishing Strikes has higher dps in the late game and most likely during the course of the game. But if he drops dead more often - does he really do more dps? Monk can surely be a very, very good single target dps character, among the best if you ask me. On top of that it can also be a lot of fun to play. 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Boeroer