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Posted (edited)

One handed (no off-hand) is considered mostly suboptimal, but it happens to be my favourite combat style rp wise. For my next character I want to try to make the most out of it. My idea is to put the emphasis on the high accuracy, therefore my watcher is going to be a single class ranger (ghost heart for rp reasons). With passives, a bit of hunter's claw metagaming (does the blunderbuss trick still work ?), high per, and of course 1 handed style, my hope is to crit a lot, but since nothing in the ranger kit emphasizes crits until pl9, I am looking for suggestions of weapons with good on crit effects.

So far I'm thinking about ball and chain (before getting stunning shots), last word (making a great boss killer If you can land a crit every 6 sec+ your int bonus), and maybe scordeo's blade (with a lateral approach to the question: if you trigger the no-recovery and put a salvation of time on it, all of a sudden 1h is way superior to dual wield).

Do you guys have any other idea ? General advice on the build ? 

Edited by Myrtillo
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Does it have to be a SC Ranger? Because I can imagine that such a melee Ranger/Monk with tons of ACC and Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming might be nice?

I mean Enduring Dance should stack with Hunter's Fang etc. right? With the bonus ACC of Scordeo's edge and Blade Cascade you will most likely proc additional attacks in very quick succession which then proc Blade Cascade again and so on...?


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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Myrtillo said:

One handed (no off-hand) is considered mostly suboptimal, but it happens to be my favourite combat style rp wise. For my next character I want to try to make the most out of it. My idea is to put the emphasis on the high accuracy, therefore my watcher is going to be a single class ranger (ghost heart for rp reasons). With passives, a bit of hunter's claw metagaming (does the blunderbuss trick still work ?), high per, and of course 1 handed style, my hope is to crit a lot, but since nothing in the ranger kit emphasizes crits until pl9, I am looking for suggestions of weapons with good on crit effects.

So far I'm thinking about ball and chain (before getting stunning shots), last word (making a great boss killer If you can land a crit every 6 sec+ your int bonus), and maybe scordeo's blade (with a lateral approach to the question: if you trigger the no-recovery and put a salvation of time on it, all of a sudden 1h is way superior to dual wield).

Do you guys have any other idea ? General advice on the build ? 

sungrazer is a good mob-clearer with the upgrade - can be upgraded such that killing an enemy on crit can cause a huge explosion; with high accuracy, you can cause a gigantic, room-clearing chain reaction. (there are other crit-based upgrades iirc but extinction event is absolutely a way to thrash easier fights i unintentionally discovered)

griffin's blade triggers daze 50% of the time on crit. at high difficulty ,the -4 PEN from daze can be a huge survivability boost.

aldris blade heals the wielder on crit - can be good.

 

thing about scordeo's edge is that blade cascade applies to *all* recovery - so you can have that, salvation of time 2+ times, and then switch to any other weapon. (dual wielding + 2w style is actually best for maximizing blade cascade procs; you can switch to 1h after that)

 

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Does it have to be a SC Ranger? Because I can imagine that such a melee Ranger/Monk with tons of ACC and Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming might be nice?

 

stunning shot on a high-crit build seems pretty good (haven't tried myself).

Edited by thelee

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Posted (edited)

one more thing - ime, the attack speed of 1h is really a bummer, so you should strongly consider going robes/light armor with high dex even on higher difficulties, on top of preferring lighter weapons (3s base recovery). it's not so much about the damage, but maximizing your crits/second and also maintaining responsiveness in combat. not a big deal for turn-based mode, but in real time mode having ~5-6s in between each attack (easily possible with a slow one-hand weapon and medium/heavy armor and low dex) makes you real slow to respond to events happening without the tankiness of a shield or the boost in baseline damage/PEN from 2h weapons that makes it worth it.

Edited by thelee

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You only listed melee weapons, is that a requirement for you ? Pistol modal gives you -15 Accuracy (easily canceled by the +12 accuracy from one-handed) and -50% recovery.

Both Scordeo's Trophy and Thundercrack Pistol have crit synergies (more dmg or paralyze). 

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Posted (edited)

oh yeah, pistol modal + 1h mode is really really good. super fast attack speed (you'll get close to the cap for reloading weapons) hardly any accuracy penalty. probably the one area where 1h style is way better than other styles.

edit: eccea's arcane blaster is also great. no crit synergy, but the fractured bullet enchantment will make other hit/crit effects better (like stunning shots). don't do bullet-time; with modal+1h mode it's sort of a trap enchantment due to minimum reload times.

Edited by thelee

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Posted (edited)

Monk/ranger with Scordeo's Edge is really a good combo. Because of the high accuracy and One Handed Style you will crit a lot and trigger Heartbeat Drumming/Swift Flurry very often, increasing also the chance to trigger Blade Cascade faster.  You don't need Stunning Shots at all because a monk can cast Thunderous Blows with Slayer's Claw equipped and gain Energized. This build is also very effective for spamming Efficient Anguish or Stunning Surge. With two weapons you will crit less often and unless you're able to spam a full attack Scordeo's Edge itself will swing at a lower rate compared to 1h style.

Edited by Kaylon

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Does it have to be a SC Ranger? Because I can imagine that such a melee Ranger/Monk with tons of ACC and Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming might be nice?

I mean Enduring Dance should stack with Hunter's Fang etc. right? With the bonus ACC of Scordeo's edge and Blade Cascade you will most likely proc additional attacks in very quick succession which then proc Blade Cascade again and so on...?

It does have to be a single class ranger, yes. First of all because I don't like multiclass for my watcher (and very rarely for other characters), and secondly because I want to go for whirling strikes with high int + crits, for what I assume should be a lot of raw damage with a fast ticking dot.

 

3 hours ago, Heukalyptus said:

You only listed melee weapons, is that a requirement for you ? Pistol modal gives you -15 Accuracy (easily canceled by the +12 accuracy from one-handed) and -50% recovery.

Both Scordeo's Trophy and Thundercrack Pistol have crit synergies (more dmg or paralyze). 

Yeah, mostly melee, but I don't mind the ocasionnal pistol dip into some pistol play when the situation calls for it. I just did too many pistol using builds already. Single hand pistol+modal is not that different from dual wield pistol+melee, and has less reactivity if you go for a hybrid. I did a build back in the day focusing on pistol+sabre, easily the character I spent the most time on (I think it's still in the build lists, "the intelligent captain")

 

3 hours ago, thelee said:

one more thing - ime, the attack speed of 1h is really a bummer, so you should strongly consider going robes/light armor with high dex even on higher difficulties, on top of preferring lighter weapons (3s base recovery). it's not so much about the damage, but maximizing your crits/second and also maintaining responsiveness in combat. not a big deal for turn-based mode, but in real time mode having ~5-6s in between each attack (easily possible with a slow one-hand weapon and medium/heavy armor and low dex) makes you real slow to respond to events happening without the tankiness of a shield or the boost in baseline damage/PEN from 2h weapons that makes it worth it.

I do agree, however on previous similar builds I found that using mail/scale/breastplate with cuthroat cosmo as a pet and mid range dex (I think I have 14) gave me acceptable responsiveness. I would be curious to do the DPS maths of using a 2 hander (more damage and pen, but longer action speed and recovery), as opposed to a 1 hander with faster recovery, +12% crit chance and 20% hit to crit. In anycase I'll always go for swag points over stats points. I play veteran with a non optimized party of story companions so it's forgiving.

Edited by Myrtillo

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Like in PoE, two handers have the same attack time and recovery as the heavy one handers like sabres.

+12 ACC does not equal +12% crit chance.

Since crits only do +25% additive dmg the two handers generally are better dps weapons after the early game than a single one handed. Unless you do a special build and/or use a very special weapon.

Whirling Strikes are indeed very good and a sufficient reason to go for single class (if it's not the only reason because it takes so long to get there).


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6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Like in PoE, two handers have the same attack time and recovery as the heavy one handers like sabres.

Thanks for the remainder, I am too used to rapiers and flails lately   😆

 

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

+12 ACC does not equal +12% crit chance.

Does it not ? My math is probably wrong then, my logic was : rolls are on a d100, therefore +1 acc in any given situation is +1% additive chance to hit and to crit.

Say you have 50 acc and your target has 40 deflection, your natural crit chance is 10% (rolls between 91 and 100). If you use a 1 hander for +12 acc, your natural chance to crit becomes 22% (rolls between 79 and 100).

What am I missing ?

 

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Since crits only do +25% additive dmg the two handers generally are better dps weapons after the early game than a single one handed. Unless you do a special build and/or use a very special weapon.

Like I said, I'm aware of that, I'm just curious to see if the difference is that massive in the end, given the pen and overpen opportunities, the +25% dmg (or 35% with the passive), and whatever on-crit effects factored in as a bonus.

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2 hours ago, Myrtillo said:

 What am I missing ?

a) if your ACC is so low compared to the enemy's defense that you can't even crit with +12 ACC (or less than 12 out of 100).

b) if your ACC is so high compared to Defense that +12 ACC will not lead to more crits (or less than 12 more out of 100).

  

 


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3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

a) if your ACC is so low compared to the enemy's defense that you can't even crit with +12 ACC (or less than 12 out of 100).

b) if your ACC is so high compared to Defense that +12 ACC will not lead to more crits (or less than 12 more out of 100).

 

On paper yes, but both are very unlikely to actually happen in game given ennemy stats.

Maybe a) has a bigger chance to happen, but the case would still call for 1-handed: When you are struggling to hit is most likely when you want this acc bonus

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Update: It apears hunter's claw cannot generate more than 1 stack anymore, even with a blunderbuss shot. Too bad.

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Posted (edited)

I wonder when/how that was changed? Because I tried it again a few weeks ago (after final patch afaik - maybe I'm wrong here) and Fire in the Hole with Chain Shot and Driving Flight (=2 AoE jumps) still gave me multiple stacks per ability use. Same as Sun & Moon (2 stacks per swing). It was a great weapon setup for Hunter's Claw.

Edit: @Myrtillo - just tried it, it didn't change I think. I fired into a pack of dummies and got 14 stacks from one mortar shot... Maybe it's just "normal" blunderbusses that got "fixed"? I will investigate further...

Hunters_fang_mortar.png?dl=1

The 20 stacks come from three attack with Sun & Moon first (each still giving me 2 stacks per swing as they used to) and then 14 at once with one shot with Fire in the Hole (with Driving Flight and Chain Shot). Note that 14 was the limit since the cap is 20. Maybe I would have gotten even more out of that one shot? Edit: nope, I always get 14... strange.

Now testing Kitchen Stove:
Got 3 stacks from one shot (although hitting way more often) with Driving Flight. Then used Wild Barrage: got 6 per shot. It seems that blunderbusses only count the first projectile but jumps do count (somehow - why 3 and no 2? Why 6 and not 4?). Mysterious... 

I now removed Driving FLight and the results are much lower. I suspect the devs tried to limit the number of stacks in the initial shot but forgot jumps from Driving Flight etc.?

With Hand Mortar (without Driving Flight) you also get only 2 or 3 stacks (even when hitting a lot with the AoE) - Hand Mortar's Blinding Smoke doesn't seem to trigger Hunter's Claw (unlike Avenging Storm). So you can get several stacks (but not more than just using Sun & Moon and another melee weapon) and the missing jump from Driving Light Chain Shot is obvious. Once you add Driving Flight and Chain Shot the stacks do skyrocket per shot.

My conclusion would be: use Fire in the Hole with Chain Shot (and even Driving Flight although you're melee). It's also the optimal setup for Whirling Strikes... 

Edited by Boeroer

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11 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I wonder when/how that was changed? Because I tried it again a few weeks ago (after final patch afaik - maybe I'm wrong here) and Fire in the Hole with Chain Shot and Driving Flight (=2 AoE jumps) still gave me multiple stacks per ability use. Same as Sun & Moon (2 stacks per swing). It was a great weapon setup for Hunter's Claw.

Edit: @Myrtillo - just tried it, it didn't change I think. I fired into a pack of dummies and got 14 stacks from one mortar shot... Maybe it's just "normal" blunderbusses that got "fixed"? I will investigate further...

 

The 20 stacks come from three attack with Sun & Moon first (each still giving me 2 stacks per swing as they used to) and then 14 at once with one shot with Fire in the Hole (with Driving Flight and Chain Shot). Note that 14 was the limit since the cap is 20. Maybe I would have gotten even more out of that one shot? Edit: nope, I always get 14... strange.

Now testing Kitchen Stove:
Got 3 stacks from one shot (although hitting way more often) with Driving Flight. Then used Wild Barrage: got 6 per shot. It seems that blunderbusses only count the first projectile but jumps do count (somehow - why 3 and no 2? Why 6 and not 4?). Mysterious... 

 

Did a bit more testing and my conclusion is it's completely inconsistent. With a fine blunderbuss I got one stack from 3 hits 1 graze, and on the next try 2 stacks from 2 grazes 2 misses.
Then with sun and moon I sometimes get 1 stack, sometimes 2, regardless if I hit, graze or crit...

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I wonder what causes this. Which manically weird if-clause determines whether an attack roll adds to the stack or not? :)


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7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I wonder what causes this. Which manically weird if-clause determines whether an attack roll adds to the stack or not? :)

I mean, it's not like hunter's claw was pristine coded to begin with 😆. Notably the save/load shenanigans that still happen.

In other news: I don't know if that has already been reported at some point, but apparently only the second hit of sun and moon benefits from the +12 acc from one handed...

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On 3/13/2020 at 6:07 PM, Myrtillo said:

Single hand pistol+modal is not that different from dual wield pistol+melee, and has less reactivity if you go for a hybrid.

single hand pistol+modal is actually way better for ranged purposes than dual wield pistol+melee. there's nothing you can do with dual-wielding and a pistol that approximates single-hand pistol + modal. 

remember that recovery time bonuses don't add-up intuitively. so -30% plus another -15% from two-weapon style does not equal -45%. It translates into about a -38% recovery time bonus. an easier, linear way to understand it is to translate those recovery time bonuses into an recovery speed bonus, which translates into +60% recovery speed (equivalent to +20 dex during reload).

modal is -50% recovery time bonus, which is a much bigger difference from the -38% net total you get from dual-wielding than you might expect - it is more apparent by converting into a recovery speed bonus, which is a +100% recovery speed bonus (equivalent to a further +13 dex during reload). You could be wearing medium armor (+35% recovery time penalty) and still be faster than a no-armor dual-wielded pistol. With one-handed style, your only cost is -3 accuracy, but you more than make up for it with a 20% hit to crit chance, even accounting for the weaker criticals on a firearm.

on top of all this - even if you had a really high accuracy where -15 accuracy isn't so punishing on dual-wielding, switching the modal on gives you massive diminishing returns because there's a minimum reload time for all reloading weapons (not listed anywhere in game, strictly due to limits on animation). Single-weapon style, light/cloth, modal on is already skirting the edge of minimum reload time. With dual-wielding, switching the modal on might give you very little gains, at significant accuracy cost (and no hit->crit chance).

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