How does initiative work?

[Madscientist]

I play turn based mode for the first time, but the tutorials show nothing turn based related so I ask here.

- Are there global rounds? Can each char act once per round? Or do the chars act in the order of the duration of their actions, similar to Final Fantasy X or the Trials series?

- Is initiative a roll or is it a fixed value? If it is rolled, is it done every round or only at the beginning of combat?

- I was confused when looking at the numbers. Is stuff with high initiative or stuff that increases initiative good or bad? Low initiative would be the opposite.

- Some active abilities have a full square, some have a square that is empty inside and some have the infinity symbol. Infinity means you can use them as often as you want during your turn. What is the difference between the full and the empty square?

- Looks like every char has a move action and an attack action each turn. Just to be sure: You cannot move twice as much if you do not attack and you cannot make a special attack if you do not move? (I needed lots of reading for the different types of actions when playing P:K)

- Anything else I should know about turn based stuff?

I have not played for a long time so I started in classic difficulty. I have the feeling turn based is easier than rtwp for me. In rtwp I had to pause all the time and check if each char is doing something at all and if they do the thing they should do. With pausing all the time and also pressing pause every time you selected an ability it was not much faster than turn based unless it was trash and you just let them fight automatically. I used AI to keep up some standart buffs and auto attack if nothing else is commanded, but I did not let them use abilities that require a different target than themselves (except healing).

 

PS: Are crew members injured or permanently gone when they die during fights on deck?

One of my crew died in the first battle after I woke up. I think in the past I killed some of them myself with (un)friendly fire, when I cast a spell at the enemy and they ran to this enemy during casting time.

[omgFIREBALLS]

20 minutes ago, Madscientist said:

PS: Are crew members injured or permanently gone when they die during fights on deck?

Actually nothing happens to them (maybe with Berath's challenge it does but I don't think so), except in that very first fight. Crew that joins you for any other boarding battle can die and shrug it off after the fight. Injuries happen in cannon combat and scripted interactions.

[Boeroer]

As with party members, crew members don't die when they go down but only get knocked out. 

[UltimaLuminaire]

In one playthrough with Berath's challenge, I've noticed missing crew on Valero's Rest after a disastrous ship fight, but not outside of this challenge.
 

11 hours ago, Madscientist said:

I play turn based mode for the first time, but the tutorials show nothing turn based related so I ask here.

- Are there global rounds? Can each char act once per round? Or do the chars act in the order of the duration of their actions, similar to Final Fantasy X or the Trials series?

- Is initiative a roll or is it a fixed value? If it is rolled, is it done every round or only at the beginning of combat?

- I was confused when looking at the numbers. Is stuff with high initiative or stuff that increases initiative good or bad? Low initiative would be the opposite.

- Some active abilities have a full square, some have a square that is empty inside and some have the infinity symbol. Infinity means you can use them as often as you want during your turn. What is the difference between the full and the empty square?

- Looks like every char has a move action and an attack action each turn. Just to be sure: You cannot move twice as much if you do not attack and you cannot make a special attack if you do not move? (I needed lots of reading for the different types of actions when playing P:K)

- Anything else I should know about turn based stuff?

- Rounds are global in order to prevent characters from acting more than once in a round. Buffs are tracked based on start/end of turn, similar to 4th edition D&D. Otherwise, actions will determine whether you execute an ability instantaneously or if you end up rolling into the next round. Sure, it can resemble... FFX delay system, as the cool kids call it. It's more random than that, though.
- Initiative is rolled at the end of your turn with a modifier based on your action during your turn.
- Low initiative doesn't matter much so feel free to min-max. High initiative is good for interrupting or CCing high priority enemies.
- Full and empty diamonds denote action type. A full diamond denotes an action that will take your standard. An empty diamond denotes a casting action, which will consume your initiative (or Action Points) to resolve the action (it will resolve after enough action points have lapsed). You can look at the description of a spell and get a tooltip to pop up for action type.
- You can move twice as much if you don't attack. Attacks can be executed as long as conditions are met (a target in range, etc). Some abilities can be used regardless of targets in range, such as many AoEs.
- You should know that if you don't move, you suffer fewer penalties on your initiative roll for the next round. Feel free to experiment and abuse this.

Edited February 3, 2020 by UltimaLuminaire
Clarification

[Boeroer]

Yes - Berath's challenge will kill party members and crew if they don't get revived in combat after 10 secs.

The "Grog" pet will kill party members on k.o. - I ever tried if it also affects crew though.

[Madscientist]

Thanks

- So abilities with a full diamond are done at once, those with empty diamond have a casting time.

- So high initiative means you act first and low initiative means you act later, right? The descriptions look exactly like rtwp mode, where a weapon or spell has a number and armor, passive abilities and some buffs have a % modifier. But in rtwp the unit is seconds, so a lower number would be better. In turn based the unit is initiative, so a higher number should be better, right? This is the confusing thing for me. But it was already confusing in rtwp where some things influenced duration ( lower is better) and others influence speed ( higher is better).

- You say that buffs/debuffs work from the beginning to the end of a round. So for buffs that last one round, it makes no sense to cast them on somebody who has already acted this round and it makes no sense to use a defensive buff after the enemy has acted.

- Outside of combat, one round is 6 seconds? You can use some buffs before combat, you can start combat with an ability that has a duration and some effects continue after combat.

[Madscientist]

OK, so the DF system is a mix of DnD (global rounds, initiative is rolled at the beginning of combat) and FFX ( your speed and the type of your action determined when you can act again).

I really liked the FFX system. You could finish the enemy before they can act by using very fast abilities or pushing them back in the attack order, but the enemy could do the same to you and some enemies would destroy you before you can act (try the optional bosses when your level is low). Main problem is to guess the duration of some effects (if I cast reflect now, how many "rounds" will it last?), but this was also the case in earlier FF with the ATB system.

[UltimaLuminaire]

Initiative is being confused in this conversation with traditional table top games. In table top, you roll for initiative and your turn order is determined in descending order starting from largest value to smallest. However, in Deadfire, it's the opposite. Initiative is determined in ascending order, starting from the smallest value and going to the largest. This is because initiative is recalculated after your turn with modifiers based on the amount or intensity of the action you took. For example, if you attack and do not move, you have a higher likelihood of having very low initiative the next round, potentially letting you act again before enemies that had previously acted before you can. Yes, this can be similar to FFX, but in the event you attempt to delay an opponent, you are not able to experience that delay to initiative until their next turn is concluded since that's where all the penalties to initiative are calculated.

I never said buffs and debuffs work from beginning to end of round. You are reading someone else's response and assuming I said it. Please reread my post. I said specifically that buffs and debuffs are calculated like 4th edition D&D. They are checked at the beginning or end of turn phase. To clarify, this is for the character affected by the buff or debuff. If your buff or debuff lasts more than 1 round, then you decrement the duration only at the start or end phase of those turns, no sooner no later. The reason why I leave this unspecified is because whether something is calculated at the start or end of turn depends on the effect or condition. 

Do not assume this system is broken. It works better than it does in real time with pause because you are guaranteed to benefit from your actions unless the enemy nullifies the condition before the duration expires. Real time with pause requires its own timing to take advantage of certain openings unless you are playing a very fast character. Turn based, it doesn't matter how slow you are.

In general, 5-6 seconds will yield an additional round of duration, IIRC. You can and should be strategizing what you can use out of combat before you ambush.

Edited February 4, 2020 by UltimaLuminaire
Clarification

[Madscientist]

I have never played DnD4. You said " Buffs are tracked based on start/end of turn, similar to 4th edition D&D ", so I guessed it means the effect ends when a round ends. (You can see when a round ends in the turn order). Since I never player DnD4 (or PnP at all, but I played computer games based on DnD2, DnD3.5, Pathfinder and DSA) I can only think of 2 ways to determine the duration of effects: a) the effect lasts until the end of the global round or b) the effect lasts until your char can act again. In case a) if you act last and you increase your deflection for one round the effect is wasted because no enemy can attack you in this round any more (unless you provoke disengagement attack) and the effect is gone in the next round which starts directly after your action. In case b it would protect from every next enemy attack unless the enemy somehow manages to get behind you in the turn order.

Thanks for clarifying that low initiative means you act first.

[UltimaLuminaire]

Ah, well then I should clarify how 4e worded powers and effect durations.

D&D 4e pen and paper rule set clarifies the phases of a turn, which in truth have always existed in older editions but were rarely referenced specifically in spells or effects. A round is just a unit of time in which each creature in combat may experience a single turn. Each creature's actual turn consists of 3 phases: Start Phase, Action Phase, and End Phase. Normally, Start and End Phase are checked in case something affecting you interacts with your character during those phases, but most of the time at the start of combat there's nothing affecting you so you ignore them and take your actions during the Action Phase. Once buffs, debuffs, and conditions are deployed, their duration would specify whether an effect interacts with the Start and/or End of turn phases for either yourself or the target. Depending on the power or condition, both phases could be utilized (the Ongoing Damage status condition, for instance, always interacts with Start Phase, and is always saved against at the End Phase of the target's turn regardless of available actions). For the sake of everything working in a video game, this concept of start and end phases effectively exists for each turn in initiative. This is in order to make sure certain checks are made when they're supposed to be made.

To give you an example for Deadfire, just now I started up a new game in Turn Based Mode as a Barbarian. I activated Frenzy before taking further actions. Frenzy will last 3 rounds thanks to having a high Intelligence score. I benefit from all the pleasures a Frenzy provides, including the Strength and Constitution buffs and an action speed modifier. At the end of my turn, initiative is calculated using the action speed modifier, but the duration of Frenzy is not checked until the START OF MY NEXT TURN, so it remains at 3 rounds. Next round, my turn comes up. At the start of that turn, the duration is reduced to 2. This continues at the start of each of my turns until the duration is reduced to 0 rounds and Frenzy ends (the 0 round counts as the final duration for the buff and the buff terminates at the end of my turn). If I choose to renew Frenzy before the duration ends, the duration does not stack and the new Frenzy will override the existing duration. As you can see, Deadfire is quite generous in how it calculates when the buff should end.

In the scenario you've listed, where a deflection buff would only last 1 round, that deflection will benefit you for your turn and your following turn. This does not make it useless or wasted, because the purpose of such a short buff is to disengage, dodge a big attack, or reposition with impunity. The Rogue's Escape ability comes to mind.

Edited February 4, 2020 by UltimaLuminaire
Clarification, Typo

[Madscientist]

OK, I think I start to understand

First about the terms: A "turn" is when you can give commands to a character. It starts when you you are able to give this char commands and it ends when you press the end button. Each char has one turn per round. A "round" is the time in which each char has a turn. (To add confusion, some DnD games called 10 rounds a turn. Later they improved it by calling this a minute (1 round = 6 sec, 10 rounds = 60 sec).

Some examples. I will call the current round where the char cast a buff as round 1, then comes round 2 and so on.

- You buff yourself with a buff that lasts 2 rounds, for example frenzy. Round 1: You select frenzy, you attack with the effect on, you press end and the duration is reduced by 1. Round2: You attack with the effect on and the effect ends when you press end. Should you activate frenzy after you attack in the first round it will still end at the end of your turn in round 2 and you have only 1 attack with the effect on. In the example with the 1 round deflection buff, it would only be active when I walk around (disengagement) or attack (retaliation) during this turn and it would never be active when an enemy attacks me on its own turn.

- I cast blind on an enemy and the effect last 2 rounds. The enemy is blind when he can act next time, no matter if it is this round or next round. When he ends his turn the duration is reduced by 1. The next time the enemy has a turn he will still be blind and the blindness will end once he ends his turn.

- I cast damage over time on an enemy and the effect has a duration of 2 rounds. When the enemy has his next turn (no matter this round or the next one) he takes damage before he can do anything and the duration is reduced by 1. The enemy does something and end his turn. The next round he will take damage again before he can act and the effect ends.

This means if an enemy has only 1 HP left and my DoT hits him directly before his turn he has no chance to do anything unless he already has a buff that prevents him from taking such kind of damage or from dying at all. I am not sure what happens if the target has damage over time and healing over time at the same time. HoT is also done at the beginning of a turn. Example: A char has 10HP left, he suffers under a DoT that causes 20 damage per round and he has a HoT that heals 30HP per round. Do you die or do you have 20HP left?

[UltimaLuminaire]

Ah, you missed what I typed. The Frenzy duration is checked at the start of your turn and will not decrement the turn you activate the buff. So you won't see the duration change until the start of your next turn, and the game will grant you the buff during the 0 round in order to make full use of the remaining time the buff would have had in real time with pause.

IIRC in Deadfire DoT and regen effects in turn based are applied in the order the effects are received.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by UltimaLuminaire
Typo

[Madscientist]

OK, once again the 2 examples from above:

- frenzy 2 round duration: round 1: you activate it, round 2: at the beginning of your turn (before you can do something) the duration is reduced by one, round 3: The effect will remain until your turn starts, when you are able to do something the effect has ended.

- blind 2 round duration: you hit the enemy with blind. first enemy turn after you hit he is blind, at the beginning of the next turn the duration is reduced by 1 and he remains blind, next turn he stops being blind when his turn starts and he can act without being blind. Here I am not 100% sure if I understand this correctly. If duration is reduced by 1 every time a turn starts and the duration is 2 rounds than the enemy would only be blind during one time he can act because my effect hits him before his next turn starts.

 

some notes:

- As far as I know this is the first computer game where a system that was designed for real time has been transformed to turn based. Usually it goes the other way around ( e.g. IE games and almost every other computer game that is based on PnP and is not turn based) or the system was designed for this type (TB, rtwp) from the beginning.

- This is the first RPG that added another game mode later. I know no other RPG where you can chose to play rtwp or TB. Thanks devs.

- In the past games came together with a huge manual that explained most game mechanics plus some lore. I still have the books for BG1+2, arcanum, realms of arcadia and I bought the guide book for PoE1 and some other newer games. Today many games get patches after release and I totally support that companies try to improve their products after release. While some items or abilities may change, the fundamental game mechanics usually stay the same. My first RPG was BG2. I started playing and had lots of problems. Then I read the whole book and I understood everything good enough to finish the game ( with lots of reloads).

- In every game I have played this is not explained at all. I have never seen a text that shows if the effect ends at the end of my turn, at the end of the global round, at the beginning of my next turn or something else.

- Once again, I have never played PnP. So I have no idea how players can keep track of all rules, effects, durations and so on at all.

[fced]

On 2/4/2020 at 9:56 AM, Madscientist said:

Thanks

- So abilities with a full diamond are done at once, those with empty diamond have a casting time.

- So high initiative means you act first and low initiative means you act later, right? The descriptions look exactly like rtwp mode, where a weapon or spell has a number and armor, passive abilities and some buffs have a % modifier. But in rtwp the unit is seconds, so a lower number would be better. In turn based the unit is initiative, so a higher number should be better, right? This is the confusing thing for me. But it was already confusing in rtwp where some things influenced duration ( lower is better) and others influence speed ( higher is better).

- You say that buffs/debuffs work from the beginning to the end of a round. So for buffs that last one round, it makes no sense to cast them on somebody who has already acted this round and it makes no sense to use a defensive buff after the enemy has acted.

- Outside of combat, one round is 6 seconds? You can use some buffs before combat, you can start combat with an ability that has a duration and some effects continue after combat.

For example, Eder buff which increase accuracy, there is no point in activating it after he attacked because in turn mode the buff have 2 turn duration (can't remember exactly), so it is better to enable it when just before Eder attack to maximise its efficiency.
Problem is during a fight we don't have access to the most important spells/skills/abilities information (duration, time it take to launch, etc), to be efficient in Deadfire you need to always have the wiki open and verify wiki before using spells/skills/abilities... I really hope they will fix this, at least in POE we had access to all important spells/skills/abilities infos during fight...

Edited February 10, 2020 by fced

[Boeroer]

You mean on consoles. Afaik @Madscientist plays on PC...?

[Madscientist]

I play on PC.

For detailed information I just right click an ability. It would be really bad if you cannot look at this on a console.