Politics, local-national-global-galactic

[ComradeYellow]

15 hours ago, majestic said:

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No, really, Skarpen isn't Sharp_One in the same way that ComradeMaster isn't SonicMage117. They're just suspiciously similar in outlooks, writing style and posting quality.

Although to be fair to Skarpen, he's at least consistent. ComradeMaster is a variation of a theme, coming off every bit as manufactured as his predecessor personality.

Join. Die. Join. Die.

For real though this this is getting a bit old, isn't it?

I am a bit of a Russophile and I haven't shied from that however I am also an American and trying to be realistic on leftist political approach, rather than glorifying a dead ideology (pure Communism).

Leave me be, comrades. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by ComradeMaster

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, ComradeMaster said:

 

I am a bit of a Russophile 

Why? There is very little about Russia that is worthy of emulation. The average folks are as nice as people anywhere but collectively speaking there has never been a generation of Russians who have not lived in relative misery compared to their neighbors to the west. They were the last country to emerge from feudalisim and traded it in for something far worse. And after finally escaping the horrors of communisim end up with the kleptocracy. It's an improvement I guess but only by degree. 

[ComradeYellow]

2 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Why? There is very little about Russia that is worthy of emulation. The average folks are as nice as people anywhere but collectively speaking there has never been a generation of Russians who have not lived in relative misery compared to their neighbors to the west. They were the last country to emerge from feudalisim and traded it in for something far worse. And after finally escaping the horrors of communisim end up with the kleptocracy. It's an improvement I guess but only by degree. 

And yet most Russians seem nostalgic for the Soviet era.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-vs-ukraine-soviet-union-communism-1264875

It's about learning from mistakes and gravitating from concepts into the modern world rather than rigidly demanding a purist ideal.

When the only other option is fascism or Western Liberalism, both of which lead to destructive expansionism and misery, I think it's a safe bet to try to find a 3rd way.

[Guard Dog]

Michael Bloomberg says Hillary Clinton will be his running mate!

Wow. That is a HUGE mistake. Especially if he wins. He will be the first President to commit suicide in office! Probably the day after inaguration! Hell she may not even wait THAT long!

[Guard Dog]

1 minute ago, ComradeMaster said:

And yet most Russians seem nostalgic for the Soviet era.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-vs-ukraine-soviet-union-communism-1264875

It's about learning from mistakes and gravitating from concepts into the modern world rather than rigidly demanding a purist ideal.

When the only other option is fascism or Western Liberalism, both of which lead to destructive expansionism and misery, I think it's a safe bet to try to find a 3rd way.

Sure. Purges, labor camps, masse executions, secret police disappearing people in the middle of the night, waiting in line for just enough food to keep you from starving. Long prision sentences for expressing contrary political opinions, barbed wire fences, machine gun and dog patrols to keep you from travelling. I can certainly see the attraction. 

Come to that what the f--k do YOU find so attractive about all that?

Like I said, I am trying to take you seriously but sometimes you make me wonder. 

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, ComradeMaster said:

For real though this this is getting a bit old, isn't it?

The alternative is that there are multiple people who act like utter lunatics, constantly contradicting themselves while frequently making absurd assertions like "I am a hardcore leftist [...] that hates leftists [...] that loves Russia." Gee, I can't imagine why people aren't treating you seriously. Really, it doesn't really matter if you're not called a troll/alt, because you'll be treated just as seriously when people think of you as a complete nutjob. So pick your poison, as it were...or, if you're an actual person instead of some guy wasting all our collective times playing a character, put a little effort into making a lick of sense.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[uuuhhii]

4 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

The alternative is that there are multiple people who act like utter lunatics, constantly contradicting themselves while frequently making absurd assertions like "I am a hardcore leftist [...] that hates leftists [...] that loves Russia." Gee, I can't imagine why people aren't treating you seriously. Really, it doesn't really matter if you're not called a troll/alt, because you'll be treated just as badly when people think of you as a complete nutjob. So pick your poison, as it were...or, if you're an actual person, put a little effort into making a lick of sense.

contradicting themselves and total lack of selfawareness are extremely common in human

even more common on the internet

[ComradeYellow]

Just now, Bartimaeus said:

The alternative is that there are multiple people who act like utter lunatics, constantly contradicting themselves constantly while making absurd assertions like "I am a hardcore leftist [...] that hates leftists [...] that loves Russia." Gee, I can't imagine why people aren't treating you seriously. Really, it doesn't really matter if you're not called a troll/alt, because you'll be treated just as badly when people think of you as a complete nutjob.

I thought you had me on your ignore list?

And there's such a thing as economic leftism whilst being socially conservative or moderate, also being loyal to the Constitution of the U.S.A. 

I just find it very strange that it's ok for liberals to be pro German/Nazi or whatever whilst the other side of the spectrum gets constantly swept under the rug, especially considering that's not the side the west chose in WW2.  So FUUUU call me an alt/nutjob whilst fascism is currently on rise and remember who's actually dedicated to fighting fascism: people like me!  We beat 'em once we'll do it again.

[Bartimaeus]

I do, but people unfortunately keep responding to and quoting you...as if you're people. Hopefully that changes with time, as my browser script is unfortunately not equipped to void such occurrences.

11 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

contradicting themselves and total lack of selfawareness are extremely common in human

even more common on the internet

No doubt, but some of us have noticed that the exact same kind of poster, with the same exact mannerisms, somehow keeps popping up with a new account every time the last one mysteriously goes MIA. It's getting old...and again, it doesn't really matter whether one's an alt or not - if you have a bunch of different posters all going "yep, they're that garbage tier alt again alright", and that person actually ISN'T an alt, they should probably heed the warning and maybe reflect upon and modify their posting a little. Predictably with such people or characters, no such luck here.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Guard Dog]

While I am quite certain I have spoken to the same person under multiple names I choose to treat every new name as though they were new. There have been folks who come here and make a genuine (if overly idealisitc) argument for the merits of communisim and it's ugly kid sister socialisim. And do it without invoking admiaration for for all the the curelty, repression, and scores of people who died because if it. But if you come here talking about how f-----g awesome the Soviet Union was your credibility meter is on 0. 

And another thing. Anyone who lauds the glory of the Nazi's and the BS Germany did in the 1930's and 40's is equally abusrd. Except no one here is really doing that. And facisim might never go away but to suggest it's taking over the US or anywhere else is also absurd. And even if there were politicians with facist sympathies (there are none right now I know of) the US is too decentralized for them to ever do much with it. 

Hey look, I'm all for staking out indefensale and even sometimes crazy positions to provoke good forum discussion. I've done that myself. But when you do it all the time people figure that is how you really think. And if you really think that way you are already too damaged to debate with. 

I'm not directing these comments at anyone in particular. Just sayin'

[Bartimaeus]

everyone's gonna be awfully upset with me when I reveal that I've been arguing with and belittling my own alts all along for shoots and googles

oops did I say that out loud

[Guard Dog]

4 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

everyone's gonna be awfully upset with me when I reveal that I've been arguing with and belittling my own alts all along for shoots and googles

oops did I say that out loud

Remember Dark Raven? She did that!

[Bartimaeus]

3 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Remember Dark Raven? She did that!

Yeah, it sounds fun, but having actually administrated forums before, it's usually pretty easy to find out when someone's doing that through a couple different measures (although I'm unsure if this forum software provides any more than the more basic and unclear one, which is by IP). The other one I like to check can be spoofed/changed, too, but it's not typically something anybody would know about to do.

[Guard Dog]

She WAS a mod!

[213374U]

42 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Sure. Purges, labor camps, masse executions, secret police disappearing people in the middle of the night, waiting in line for just enough food to keep you from starving. Long prision sentences for expressing contrary political opinions, barbed wire fences, machine gun and dog patrols to keep you from travelling. I can certainly see the attraction. 

You aren't wrong.

But you can also paint the so-called free US in the worst possible light: an economic divide so insurmountable that makes it so class is more strongly inheritable than intelligence, the world's largest prison population both in relative and absolute terms, staggering (and possibly deadly) healthcare inequality, a structural obesity epidemic, long prison sentences for exposing the state's crimes, and the star of the show: unelected special interests which are slowly but surely turning the world into an uninhabitable trash dump, and which in effect exert more influence over the state than the people it's supposed to serve and represent because the only value is dollar value.

I don't know man, sometimes I think you're so high on "freedom" as apparatchiks were on the workers' paradise utopia. I know you're going to retort that you went from nothing to a degree and a home thanks to your service, and then I will counter that some nobody kid from a poor peasant village in deep rural Russia went on to become Premier of the Soviet Union and bring it down from the inside thanks to its equal opportunity policies. So let's skip that part. in The fact remains that for a majority of the population, neither the US nor the Soviet Union are the hellholes one can make them out which explains why so many people still rate them highly over uncertain dreams of a better society.

[Guard Dog]

Back OT Communisim, Socialisim and Facisim are all the same thing in my book. Forget for a moment the details of each. That is just minutia. At the core of each is compulsion. There is a person with a gun who will happily kill you for non-compliance. Any system that compels participation is inherently evil IMO. Say what you will of capitalsim. It does not compel participation in it's (relatively) free market. You can choose to to consume or not. You can choose to to produce or not. You can even do nothing and live on the charity and largesse of your fellow citizens if you want. You can move out in the middle of the woods and grow your own food in a garden and no one will say you can't. You can join a commune that operates as a toatally insular and communist community and that too is perfectly fine. That isn't far off how the Amish live. And you are free to come and go. But in the big evil 3 you have no choices. They are all made for you. You only choices are to comply or don't. And of you opt for the latter people will take you away and maybe even kill you. 

The only people who could be honestly attracted to such are either hopelssly deluded or they imagine they will be the one's making the choices and doing the killing.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Guard Dog

[213374U]

Hold up. In which capitalist dream land the law is an opt-in? All law is coercitive in nature, which means that there is a person with a gun who will happily kill you for non-compliance.

Even if you could truly live off the grid, the only way to stop someone from exercising their free market "rights" over the land you inhabit and kick you out is to claim ownership of it yourself. Which means you are forced to participate in the capitalist system and abide by the laws that it's built on.

You are free to *pretend* that you aren't participating, but that's about it. I've mentioned this in the past, but the only place where you could really be "free" is Antarctica, and guess what, it's illegal to settle there.

[Guard Dog]

13 minutes ago, 213374U said:

You aren't wrong.

But you can also paint the so-called free US in the worst possible light: an economic divide so insurmountable that makes it so class is more strongly inheritable than intelligence, the world's largest prison population both in relative and absolute terms, staggering (and possibly deadly) healthcare inequality, a structural obesity epidemic, long prison sentences for exposing the state's crimes, and the star of the show: unelected special interests which are slowly but surely turning the world into an uninhabitable trash dump, and which in effect exert more influence over the state than the people it's supposed to serve and represent because the only value is dollar value.

I don't know man, sometimes I think you're so high on "freedom" as apparatchiks were on the workers' paradise utopia. I know you're going to retort that you went from nothing to a degree and a home thanks to your service, and then I will counter that some nobody kid from a poor peasant village in deep rural Russia went on to become Premier of the Soviet Union and bring it down from the inside thanks to its equal opportunity policies. So let's skip that part. in The fact remains that for a majority of the population, neither the US nor the Soviet Union are the hellholes one can make them out which explains why so many people still rate them highly over uncertain dreams of a better society.

You know the funny thing is those special interests don't get a vote. They do wield a lot of influence and the government get's bigger and more powerful every year. And the voters keep sending the same kind of people that do it to them. What are the options? Take their vote away? You can't do that. Get money out of politics? How is that even possible? If the voters keep sending the same kind of people to the legisaltures and executive offices around the country nothing ever can or will change. 

No argument from me the justice system in the US is abloody mess. You know my take. No victim = no crime. And society cannot be a "victim". You'll spend more time in prision from burning dried plant matter and inhaling the fumes that you would for murder in some states. How can we fix that? See my previous paragraph.

Obesity is a huge problem. OMG, no pun intended there. But people don't get that way by accident and the "system" didn't make them that way. They made bad decisions when the choice to do otherwise was equally available. Even in the so called "food deserts" here in the US where small grocery stores have been run out of business (mostly by the government) there are healthier options than candy, potato chips, and Big Macs. What is the alternative? Tell people the MUST eat what you say? You do not get to make choices for people. And they cannot blame the "system" when their bad choices lead to a bad outcome.

A mostly free society is never going to be perfect. We DO have equal opportunity here. What we do not have is equal outcomes. But that is life. I don't blame people for being in dire circumstances. I am more than willing to help them improve their lot through charitable donations and even a tax supported social safety net. But I have no sympathy for people who choose to remain in dire circumstances. Gromnir and I have discussed this before. You as well. He is right that some people just give in to hopelessness. But that too is a choice they make themselves and not something that the people who didn't owe them any apology for. 

[Guard Dog]

15 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Hold up. In which capitalist dream land the law is an opt-in? All law is coercitive in nature, which means that there is a person with a gun who will happily kill you for non-compliance.

Even if you could truly live off the grid, the only way to stop someone from exercising their free market "rights" over the land you inhabit and kick you out is to claim ownership of it yourself. Which means you are forced to participate in the capitalist system and abide by the laws that it's built on.

You are free to *pretend* that you aren't participating, but that's about it. I've mentioned this in the past, but the only place where you could really be "free" is Antarctica, and guess what, it's illegal to settle there.

The law does not generally force anyone to DO anything. It is a bar AGAINST doing things. The law is supposed to PREVENT you from hurting other people, stealing their stuff, etc. Other than paying taxes (do NOT get me started on THAT...) there is very little activity that is compuslory. In other words is is almost never a crime to do nothing. 

[Maedhros]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

A mostly free society is never going to be perfect. We DO have equal opportunity here. What we do not have is equal outcomes. But that is life. I don't blame people for being in dire circumstances. I am more than willing to help them improve their lot through charitable donations and even a tax supported social safety net. But I have no sympathy for people who choose to remain in dire circumstances. Gromnir and I have discussed this before. You as well. He is right that some people just give in to hopelessness. But that too is a choice they make themselves and not something that the people who didn't owe them any apology for. 

No one wants to remain in dire circumstances. There's always the social inheritance aspect. Someone born to poor, unintelligent or abusive parents will never have the same opportunity as others. Technically, maybe, but not in reality, knowing what we do about the human brain and how early experiences shape us.

How society allows for poor (in any meaning of the word) people to break through the chain says a lot about that society. In the US you seem to want to keep the status quo, with expensive education and healthcare that definitely doesn't help poor people be "free".

It's good that you see the benefit of donations and tax supported safety nets though.

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Maedhros
typo

[ComradeYellow]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Back OT Communisim, Socialisim and Facisim are all the same thing in my book.

IMO this is dangerous thinking which leads to fascism.  When you allow free markets to remain truly and utterly free it leads corporations controlling the government and directing national policy, which is literally no different than fascist Italy!

The solution here is keep money out of politics and offer a public sector.  I've said it a million times already but people can't seem to grasp simple logic and solutions and automatically think 1937 Moscow or something.  One may have fantasies about storming Berlin and destroying fascists under the Red Army banner w/o actually wanting to reinstitute Stalin-era policies!  It's called respect and evolutionary gravitation from old concepts.

Edited February 15, 2020 by ComradeMaster

[Guard Dog]

4 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

No one wants to remain in dire circumstances. There's always the social inheritance aspect. Someone born to poor, unintelligent or abusive parents will never have the same opportunity as others. Technically, maybe, not not in reality, knowing what we do about the human brain and how early experiences shape us.

How society allows for poor (in any meaning of the word) people to break through the chain says a lot about that society. In the US you seem to want to keep the status quo, with expensive education and healthcare that definitely doesn't help poor people be "free".

It's good that you see the benefit of donations and tax supported safety nets though.

 

Education in the US actually IS free. After a fashion. Public school is free and mandatory (no argument from me on that one bit of compulsion) up to 12th grade. Adult education is also free if circumstances or poor choices resulted in someone dropping out before completing high school. Vocational and technical schools are also free or reduced cost based on means in most states. In my state if you have a net income under $24k you can attend state vo-tech schools for free. Want to learn to become a HVAC Tech, auto mechanic/tech, office skills, computer literacy, etc all you have to do is enroll, show up, and earn a C average. Serve four years in the US Military and you will get enough in tuition assitance to pay for a BS/BA degree in any State university system with in-state tuition rates. Serve 6 years in the Peace Corps and you get a similar deal. Want to be a doctor or nurse? Apply for a VA scholarship. You do not need to be a vetaran. They will pay your tuition in return for going to work for them for a period of time after. 

There are literally hundreds of opportunities for education and self improvement avaialbale to anyone in the US who wants them. It's heartbreaking how many of them go unused. They don't hand them to you. You have to go and get them and work for them. But they are there. It amazes me how many starving people will turn down a hamburger because it wasn't a steak.  

[Guard Dog]

25 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

IMO this is dangerous thinking which leads to fascism.  When you allow free markets to remain truly and utterly free it leads corporations controlling the government and directing national policy, which is literally no different than fascist Italy!

 

That is a circular argument. An oppressive system must be endured because the alternative might be opporession. And you seem to fear there are Nazis peeking around every corner. There are not. Not saying that warped way of thinking is not still around but it has no power. Certainly nothing that would convince someone to sacrifice the opportunity to make their own decisions to an almighty state out of fear of. 

Oh and by the way, the oppression of the Soviet Union might have lessened somewhat after Stalin but it never, ever went away. Until the day that govenment collapsed into the ashbin of history (where it belonged) the people it lorded over had no liberty in any meanigful sense of the word.  Your admiration of it does you no credit. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Guard Dog
And another thing

[ComradeYellow]

History Rhymes.  Except nowadays the "Reds" are the bad guys (Republicans) whilst the Greens and Blue's (Cyan's) are the good guys.

Islamophobia, Zionism, economic gangsterism, austerity, cutting social benefits are simply unacceptable to the Left.

Bring it on moth****ers!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

The law does not generally force anyone to DO anything. It is a bar AGAINST doing things. The law is supposed to PREVENT you from hurting other people, stealing their stuff, etc. Other than paying taxes (do NOT get me started on THAT...) there is very little activity that is compuslory. In other words is is almost never a crime to do nothing. 

If it's barring you from doing things that would allow one to not do a certain thing, then it effectively is forcing you to do something making it a semantic difference. For example I'm not forced to pay my landlord money, but sleeping in public, settling a random plot of land, or squatting in an unused building are all prevented by law (aka that person with a gun who will happily kill or jail you for non-compliance) so I'm required to pay for shelter in one form or another because I have not been able to develop the ability to function without sleep. Analyzing what laws do in the vacuum of what they say is meaningless because they are enforced in the real life conditions we find ourselves in.