Politics: The Undiscovered Country

[Gfted1]

Per isidewith:

Williamson  87%

Harris / Sanders  85%

Buttigieg / Warren / Klobuchar  83%

Castro / Biden  81%

[smjjames]

55 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

"The biggest divide in the party is not between left and center. It's between those who believe once Trump is gone, things will go back to normal, and those that believe that our democracy is under a threat that goes beyond Trump."

“There is a situation where the electability argument within the context of this primary becomes self-perpetuating. Everyone thinks Biden’s the most electable, therefore voters tell pollsters that he is more electable — and therefore more people think that, and it sort of all goes around the circle.”

My two favorite bits from here

Regarding Yang, I've not heard anything negative about him but it might just be that nobody considers him a big enough threat to bother looking in to. He was up at the top of my isidewith results last time I took it

Maybe I should retake the test or something now that people have put more stuff out there

The fact that it’s so crowded is likely part of the reason since Biden is just the more familiar face for many.

 

Anyways, Marianne Williamson does it again:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/04/politics/marianne-williamson-hurricane-dorian-tweet-trnd/index.html
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/459883-williamson-deletes-tweet-saying-power-of-the-mind-turned-away-hurricane

Her campaign is crying double standard, but seriously, saying that kind of thing is going to come off as weird no matter who says it

[Captain Corcoran]

Trump 83%

Johnson and Kasich 81

Delaney and Yang 61

Gabbard 46.

[Gfted1]

Pfft, sucker, that's a good way to wind up paying your own way through life.

[smjjames]

Johnson and Kasich? That’s a bit of an interesting combination.

I have a whole bunch in the 90%s, probably because I didn’t mess with the question importance much and most of the immigration questions boil down to pro/anti Trump rather than any nuance. I’d have preferred to be able to select multiple for the ‘who would you pick if 2020 election were held today’

95% Harris, Buttigeig

94% Williamson, Warren, O’Rourke

93% Sanders

92% Castro, Klobuchar

91% Biden

90% Gabbard, Yang, Booker

82% Delaney

72% Kasich

54% Johnson

31% Trump

 

Also, a funny thing I notice is that for Johnson, he is tagged with both isolationism and globalism, which are opposites. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by smjjames

[Elerond]

[Captain Corcoran]

The preceding public service announcement brought to you by Obsidian Entertainment.

EDIT:  Mattis really is a class act.  Folks who hope and pray for his entry into the fray are probably making idle wishes.  At this point, and hopefully at all points, he is  above the fray.  We have a long history in the United States of drawing the best statesmen from outside the political ranks.  That said, he's just a guy.  You never know if he'll end up going gonzo.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Captain Corcoran

[smjjames]

It depends on which statesmen/women you’re talking about, there have definitely been Presidents who came from outside politics and weren’t all that great, and I’m not talking about just Trump. Easier to cherrypick with Senators and Representatives though.

As for Mattis, I think I saw something with him saying that he wouldn’t publish his book (if he does write one) early unless Trump attacks first, but knowing Trump, that sounds like a direct provocation to attack. 

[Bartimaeus]

Trump accidentally claimed that Hurricane Dorian was going to strike somewhere it's not. Instead of going "whoops" and everyone forgetting it, he took an official projected path map and sharpied over it and tried to pass it off as official.

vs.

It is difficult for me to understand the man that thinks that this sort of thing will somehow come across as better than just saying "oops, I was wrong" and literally everyone forgetting within 48 hours tops. Or more likely from him, saying nothing at all and pretending it never happened. But to double down on such a flagrantly stupid thing... lmao

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Elerond said:

there is folks who complain 'bout how the fake news is out to get trump and that various media organizations is fixated 'pon the President beyond reason.  perhaps there is a few individual reporters who don't care 'bout the facts as it relates to trump, but such is hardly the norm.  the disconnect arises 'cause is some in the media trying to report on this President same as they did for past Presidents.

however, the black sharpie alteration o' a weather map shows how trump has complete changed the way news is reported. all through his campaign, and from day 1 o' his presidency with the ridiculous crowd size claims, trump has lied so consistent and so indiscriminate that the media no longer bothers to report as they would have for any other President in memory.  past Presidents need not even lie and they would be raked over the coals by media for months (years) for arguable mistruths. 

trump lies. he lies small and he lies big and he lies so unreasonable it is impossible to even use self-interest to divine if a Presidential untruth were intentional or the result o' mistake. 

the irony is that this President, more than any other in recent memory, has been allowed by the media to functional get away with lies. the country, the news media included, has become utter numb to constant, willful and bizarre mendacity from the wh.

yeah, fox changed the game by being so successful. the folks in the business o' news recognized it is more lucrative to sell news their audience wants to read as 'posed to trying to let folks make up their own minds 'bout an event or issue. such isn't particular new, but how effective the media has been at accelerating polarization surprises us.

even so...

how does this happen? a black sharpie to try and make trump's alabama comments legit? nevertheless, in a day or two, this moment from the madhouse on pennsylvania avenue will be largely forgotten... just another entry on the improbable ledger o' Presidential lies. is the kinda brain freeze stoopid moment which would dog any other President for months or years, but not trump. compared to shutting down the government for a wall and muslim bans and pu$$y grab, this is small timey, no?  

the media has never been unbiased and impartial. am not certain why folks pretend as if such were ever the standard. am not certain why we need repeat this obvious point each time the evil press is message board fodder, but so it goes. you got a President who cannot tell the truth and then claims the press is the "enemy o' the people." gosh, one wonders why the press would be concerned 'bout such, eh?

and yeah, 'cause somebody will mention or reflect 'pon it, during the first two years o' his administration, obama got the benefit of the doubt more often than not from much o' the popular news organizations. 'course after two years the honeymoon were over and obama went after journalists such that the fed attempted to criminalize journalists more frequent than any President since Lincoln. 

"The Obama administration used the 1917 Espionage Act with unprecedented vigor, prosecuting more people under that law for leaking sensitive information to the public than all previous administrations combined. Obama’s Justice Department dug into confidential communications between news organizations and their sources as part of that effort.

"In 2013 the Obama administration obtained the records of 20 Associated Press office phone lines and reporters’ home and cell phones, seizing them without notice, as part of an investigation into the disclosure of information about a foiled al-Qaida terrorist plot.

"AP was not the target of the investigation. But it called the seizure a “massive and unprecedented intrusion” into its news-gathering activities, betraying information about its operations “that the government has no conceivable right to know.”

"Obama’s Justice Department also secretly dogged Fox News journalist James Rosen, getting his phone records, tracking his arrivals and departures at the State Department through his security-badge use, obtaining a search warrant to see his personal emails and naming him as a possible criminal conspirator in the investigation of a news leak."

https://www.apnews.com/ffc60235c26c470c9047e0da6ff19f95

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/30/barack-obama-press-freedom-strong-media-stop-donald-trump

obama complained 'bout press almost constant from end of second year to end of second term, and that is 'cause the press were bending over backwards for him? no. all it took were one Presidential election and the "enemy of the people" bit to make folks forget obama's adversarial relationship with the press. 

regardless, the truth is that all too often trump gets a free pass from the press. is too much lies and crazy and even arguable illegal (need remind folks mueller report clear found considerable evidence o' both obstruction and collusive behaviour) for the press to pretend this administration may be covered as others. the public is too polarized for the press to pretend as if they are able to do their jobs same as in previous years. 

every time the press reveals facts o' a new trump lie or misdeed, trump supporters see as evidence the press is out to get trump and one new lie or misdeed ain't gonna make a difference to those who already distrust trump. 

a black sharpie alteration to a map showing hurricane progress, to cover for a twitter misstatement? this is wh reality in 2019.

black sharpie moment will be largely abandoned by press as o' next week. this is also reality in 2019.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 5, 2019 by Gromnir
beat by bartimaeus... is the danger o' sooper-long posts.

[smjjames]

He could have also tried to explain how it looked like it could eventually hit Alabama at the time of that projection if it continued the general direction,but the problem is that it wasn’t a one off, it was three times or so and well after the projection changed. I believe he also said or tried to explain away that Alabama simply came up in discussion. Whether it came up in discussion all three of those times, I don’t know, but if it did, well after the prediction change, I have to wonder the quality of his briefings. 

[Captain Corcoran]

Yeah, he's an inveterate and unrepentant liar.  Okay.  :shrug:  This will still pass in 48 hours, tops, except for Trump hater hobbyists.  Hell, this probably won't even last 48 hours on 24/7 Trump hating media outlets like CNN or MSNBC.  I do have to admit that I thought the CNN story was interesting and probably fairly innocuous by their own Trump hating precedent.  For all I know, that's been taken down by now also.

[smjjames]

2 minutes ago, Captain Corcoran said:

For all I know, that's been taken down by now also.

NOPE, not yet! It’ll definitely move down over the next few days though.

Who’s the other guy holding up the pic though? Most likely a random staffer, but I just hope it’s not the current FEMA head or other official because it’s not a good look for them either. 

[Guard Dog]

Nothing that comes from this administration surprises me any more.  Ditto for the last one and the next one. Believe nothing, expect nothing, get mad at nothing. That's the only sane thing to do.

 

[Captain Corcoran]

Brother, it was ever thus.  From the Gracchi to Grant, from Perikles to Palin, from Xenophon to Xi, politics hasn't changed.  Trump didn't change the immutable characteristics of the game, just moved it toward a direction to which we've become unaccustomed.  Trump isn't an evil genius.  He deserves far less ire and angst than he gets in the media at large, and in this place specifically.

I won't hold a grudge over any of this, though.  I don't get mad at the current situation, but I'm willing to play my own part.  I'll probably be more involved in the political process than most folks here.  I took off the 2018 cycle, other than voting, but I had a lot of stuff going on in my life.  I still do, but not enough to eschew my obligation as a citizen.

There, I even used paragraphs!  :back slapping grin:

P.S. I always viewed Palin with distrust and dismay, but I couldn't think of a P starting politician quickly... other than Perikles, of course.  I mean, I was trying to use one ancient and one modern figure.   Otherwise, I would have used Ptolemy.

EDIT:  typing with hasty fingers is always a source for confusion.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Captain Corcoran

[Zoraptor]

I took the ISideWith quiz because I didn't have anything better to do for five minutes- and with the state of some US voting machines maybe I could end up voting, if I really wanted to.

Watkins 98%

Harris 93%

Warren 92%

Bernie 91%

Biden 61%

Trump 41%

Not sure exactly how I got Biden so low- closer to Trump than the other Ds- with the others so high. Guess it's more evidence Biden is the real stealth Republican DINO candidate.

[Gromnir]

32 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Nothing that comes from this administration surprises me any more.  Ditto for the last one and the next one. Believe nothing, expect nothing, get mad at nothing. That's the only sane thing to do.

 

pretend as if the trump administration is normal or no worse than ________ is requiring a level o' willful indifference am incapable o' mustering. making you and others believe that trump is no worse than ________ is how he got elected in the first place and is what makes the possibility o' reelecting an amoral and narcissistic huckster a very real threat.

when trump were elected, we were at least sympathetic to your view. we posted the kodos and kang stuff and opined how the universe were clear mocking previous decades worth o' complaints 'bout lack o' Presidential candidates worthy o' a vote. 

but we have been here already, yes?

am a fiscal conservative/libertarian who complained endless 'bout obama's misguided foreign policy. we vote republican more often than not, in part 'cause the libertarian candidates have been a trainwreck. name a world leader question or "who is harriet tubman?" no thanks mr. johnson. 

am not some kinda far-left hippie. heck, yang annoys us 'cause he is a one-trick pony who seeming hasn't considered practical problems for his $1000/month plan while simultaneous ignoring existing data 'bout how such monthly offerings change employment. 

*shrug*

we got criticisms for all the candidates, but trump is different and something we ain't seen in the oval office for a long time. have seen misguided. have seen relative inept. trump is different. don't kid self. we could see trump metaphorical fiddle as the world burns 'round him, but nero succeeded in implementing a major infrastructure overhaul, so such would be an unfair comparison to the roman emperor.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

I'll tell you who is happy with the Trump Admin, Gromnir. Warren Harding and James Buchanan. Suddenly they are looking a whole lot better. 

 

Edit: If you think Johnson was a trainwreck you should see the four fools running now. Doesn't matter. I'm done with tilting at that windmill anyway. I'm the guy drinking at the bar on the Titanic after it hit the iceberg. The end is assured and it can't be prevented. The 2020 election will be a contest of terrible candidates each destructively incompetent in their own way. The outcome of next year's election is somewhere below the winner of the next Stanley Cup and the outcome of the Murfeesboro Cornhole championship tournament on my list of things I give a s--t about.  

Edited September 5, 2019 by Guard Dog
And another thing

[Captain Corcoran]

This will be fodder for a few days.  Biden is a bad candidate.  Seriously, while the condition is undoubtedly not serious (and not uncommon), the 'optics' (haha, I usually hate that word, but in this case it's delicious) are bad for him.

https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/04/bidens-eye-bloody-during-cnn-town-hall/

[smjjames]

I’d read about that, though it put it in the context of him sitting the whole time while the others had walked around, as if that’d have made a difference. I thought maybe it was a sign of him stressed out or something.

 

Also, *music symbol*Double down.... Double down.... *music symbol* it’d probably go away in 48 hours if Trump stopped bringing it up, heh.

[Captain Corcoran]

10 minutes ago, smjjames said:

I’d read about that, though it put it in the context of him sitting the whole time while the others had walked around, as if that’d have made a difference. I thought maybe it was a sign of him stressed out or something.

That's a problem for Biden, though.  Look, I still think Biden could do well as a candidate, but that's only because people are willing to ignore his 'gaffes.'  Some of what's been going on lately aren't gaffes, though.  Biden has a new narrative going and he's getting it from both the left and right.  I have a leftist friend at the Naval Academy who got into an argument with his leftist dad regarding Biden vs Sanders.  The kid wrote a 13 page treatise and delivered it to his dad about why Biden is a bad candidate and out of touch with the base.  All of these incidents, including one that is truly unfair to hold against him (such as a subconjunctival hemorrhage), rebuild who Biden is.  The press isn't covering for him as they were wont to do.  ...And he really is coming off the rails.  He could still win.  I think he's got a good chance to win, but he's got some real deficiencies.

The serious problem for the left is that it has abandoned every strategy other than Trump hate.  That's effective on one end, but the sheer level and manifestation of it helps Trump while it hurts him.  The guy is a yutz, but is he the reason for the current level of discord?  Stupidity!  Trump is a symptom of a problem in the United States, one that has its counterpart overseas.  You can hate me for telling it like it is, but I've actually got a fairly good record for calling elections.  For 'ends justify every means' liberals, figuring out a way to beat Trump should be more important than hating him.  Whatever.  At least I'm getting to see varied and far flung opinions, which is why I signed up in this forum.

As for bemoaning your fate, suck it up, hold your nose, look at the candidate you like most/hate least, and vote.  I'd also look for information to supplement the fair and balanced reporting you get here at Obsidian.

[Gromnir]

24 minutes ago, smjjames said:

 

Also, *music symbol*Double down.... Double down.... *music symbol* it’d probably go away in 48 hours if Trump stopped bringing it up, heh.

one word: windmills

of course trump won't let it go. his base, inexplicable and beyond reason, don't care 'bout trump lies, but they love seeing him fight, 'cause y'know, trump is a fighter and... 

am not sure where to go with this 'cause am complete perplexed by his base and the entertainment value they enjoy seeing trump vigorous defend the indefensible. we never watched his tv show, so am s'posing we is self-inoculated 'gainst his antics. dunno.

also, the fight allows trump to bang the "enemy of the people" drum. the real villains is the press. see how they mischaracterize the President's tweets? see how the press fakes news? is complete and utter malarkey, but his base doesn't care 'bout facts and as we has seen, any kinda maths is gonna utter discombobulate a large % o' 'em. 

and then there is the more moderate conservatives who is mild emberassed by trump and who private have concerns 'bout the mendacity and the corruption and the illegal, but at the end o' the day, is either trump or a democrat alternative, and the republicans is willing to overlook trump if it means mitch is able to continue packing courts for a few more years. the quiet enablers who will come out o' the woodwork after trump is no longer in office and admit they didn't approve o' trump, but they had a duty to defend the US from socialism and big government and... whatever.

after +2 years o' o' insanity such as cancer causing windmills, only educated women voters has been leaving the trump base in noteworthy numbers, but such folks were never a huge % o' the base. 

trump cannot let go. is part o' the character he has concocted that he is a fighter who will always respond to attacks both real and perceived. doesn't matter if the fight is hornswoggle.

Americans voted this guy into office. in spite o' daily displays o' incompetence and a record o' near total failure after +2 years in office, is possible he may get a second term.  reality in 2019.

windmills.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[ShadySands]

Did anyone watch the Climate Town Hall? Thinking of watching it tonight but would probably give it a pass if the moderators are just lobbing softballs and Republican talking points.

[Captain Corcoran]

I would point out that mild manners do not mean moderate convictions.  I have *no* doubt folks would find me mild mannered in real life.  When pressed, however, they'd find my convictions are anything but moderate.  In fact, pushed enough, it becomes apparent that they can be quite extreme.  I will not need to come out of the woodwork.  I'm remarkably up front with people in real life, and that has included facing some difficulties in cases where honestly was the best policy but not an easy one.  So, the following will sound harsh, but it's the facts as I see them that are harsh, not my feelings on the issue.  Read all this with a friendly tone... a 'mild manner' as you might say.  I also want to acknowledge that some of what I write goes to previous statements from my alpha dog friend, but not exclusively so.

To start, if anyone here believes Trump will be beaten because of policy, he or she is being foolish.  If the current administration had taken every action it has so far, but Trump were not so thoroughly vilified (and often rightfully so), Trump would crush the opposition next year.  That doesn't mean I agree with every policy.  By and large, I think executive actions have been what I'd want to see.  Some are more disturbing, such as the trade war.  Even then, I don't think taking a stand against China is wrong.  I dislike the tone of a petulant child saying he wants China to "play fair."  China is a deadly and global adversary.  If we need to go to the mattresses in order to check their power, so be it.  Just level with the public about how and why.  So, recap, Trumps policies will not be the source of his downfall should he lose.

[Guard Dog]

I think the US is long past the point where policy preference is anywhere on voters checklist. More is the pity. It's all about catchy slogans, cults of personality, and tribalism. There are some genuinely intelligent people in this race. People with calm and measured temperaments and sound economic ideas. They can be forgiven for making promises that cannot be delivered on because that is what candidates do. Unfortunately those people are not going to be in the campaign after Hew Hampshire if they even make it that far. It will be the big personalities making promises they will try to deliver no matter how unsound or ruinous the consequences of them that will make the ballot. 

It doesn't matter. As long as Congress is divided with each house in the control of different parties we'll be fine. Or as long as Congress is opposite the President we'll be fine. Although that is less than ideal. When one party hold all the levers of power, no matter which, God help us all.