Intimidating ships exploit

[LegendaryWyatt]

So I've encountered a bit of an exploit. I can intimidate ships for money and food+water infinitely. They attack you on sight after you reach a low enough reputation with that faction preventing you from intimidating them, but not if you are flying that factions flag. After I intimidate them they teleport a short distance away and I can intimidate them again... and again... and again. This feels like cheating. I've thought of solutions and I came up with:

1) Making intimidated ships only able to be intimidated once.

2) Removing intimidate as an option, perhaps by bringing back the old ship battle ui and

3) Preventing wearing enemy flags from pacifying that faction.

I have no modding knowledge so I have no idea how to make something like that happen, so I'll just leave this here and hope someone who does can fix this issue.

Edited May 31, 2019 by LegendaryWyatt

[xzar_monty]

4) Don't do it.

 

#1 is also good and pretty logical.

Edited May 31, 2019 by xzar_monty

[LegendaryWyatt]

12 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

4) Don't do it.

 

#1 is also good and pretty logical.

Well, obviously not doing it is the best and easiest option. But is it not in our nature to exploit the systems of a game to our benefit? Min-maxing characters and all that. I know it drains from the fun but the fact that it's there means I'll always see it as a solution I can lean on whenever I'm low on money. I'm a weak man. xD

[xzar_monty]

No. I never min-max, and I don't exploit the very obvious flaws.

 

I'm not trying to sound like a saint here, mind you. But you said it yourself: it drains from the fun. I like to have fun. And challenges are a big part of the fun. So, no min-maxing, no exploits. They're way too easy.

 

Overcoming challenges leads to a sense of accomplishment, which is great fun. Cheating doesn't give you that.

Edited May 31, 2019 by xzar_monty

[LegendaryWyatt]

17 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Overcoming challenges leads to a sense of accomplishment, which is great fun. Cheating doesn't give you that.

Which is why I want the exploit removed, thus removing the temptation. That way I can experience what you describe. In my mind it would be foolish to get money any other way so long as this exploit remains. You are clearly just better at controlling yourself.

Edited May 31, 2019 by LegendaryWyatt

[xzar_monty]

Fair enough, I see your point.

[Boeroer]

 

On 5/31/2019 at 6:12 PM, xzar_monty said:

I'm not trying to sound like a saint here, mind you. 

Declaring min-maxing to be ethically dubious repaints the image of a saint and turns it into one of a moralizer - so no worries!

[xzar_monty]

That's an astonishing thing to bring up, it's extraordinary how rancorously petty you can get. What can possibly be the problem if I don't min-max because I find it ethically dubious, given the limitations and exploitability of a CRPG? There is no judgement there on anyone else. It feels like cheating to me, so I don't do it. Why does that offend you so?

[Boeroer]

The problem (for me at least) is that if you declare something as ethically dubious you don't restrict it to yourself. Not as long as you explicitly say so. You automatically project it onto everybody else who min-maxes (in Deadfire). Ethics is not a personal thing, it's a consensus in society as a whole.

Ifyou had said that you don't like it, that it's not your cup of tea, that it makes you feel uncomfortable - totally fine. But instead if one reads "ethically dubious" one can't help to feel judged. Saying that you find it ethically dubious is strong stuff. Way too strong for my taste. So bear with me while I rub it in.

Using this phrasing either means you a) weren't fully aware of the impression this phrase would make - or b) that you think that you have higher moral standards than people who min-max (in a single player RPG which they play for their own amusement).

I hope it wasn't the latter, but the latest "I never min-max" statement, albeit totally fine on its own, reinforces the impression of b). Which I find is a problematic, high-brow mindset to have in general. 

To be fair you already said that you only mean "ethically dubious for yourself" - but then whenever stuff like min-maxing and cheese comes up in the forums you (maybe unknowingly) send signals for b).

As said earlier: some players like to build efficient "min-maxed" characters even more than they like to play them. Like they would build with Lego. Indirectly labeling this as ethically dubious - even if it wasn't meant that way - is not right.

Maybe some people find this petty. But this is an important matter to me. You could tell from my first reaction on that matter.

Same like the signals that get send when people say something along the lines of "why can't you control yourself? It's so easy to not abuse." I also don't think that this helps anybody in any way. 

Solution number 1 (only can intimidate once) sounds totally reasonable by the way.

[xzar_monty]

There is no implication of higher moral ground in the comment, it's your interpretation and getting upset about it is unnecessary and unhelpful.

 

For instance, there are plenty of people who argue that eating meat is ethically dubious. I do eat meat (although I tend to choose it quite carefully), but I don't get upset with differing opinions, and when discussing this, I don't get upset with people who argue for vegetarianism on ethical grounds. What would be unacceptable is them telling me what to do based upon their personal preferences. But I already emphasized that this is precisely what I did not do.

 

I agree that solution #1 is a good option; in fact, I commented on this straight away.

[LegendaryWyatt]

Ladies, please. You're both pretty!  Also, thanks both of you. Now if only someone with the knowledge to implement it would read this post.

[Boeroer]

I can try to convince the others that this should go into the community patch - if it's fixable via mod in the first place.

[LegendaryWyatt]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I can try to convince the others that this should go into the community patch - if it's fixable via mod in the first place.

That's the best hope I've had yet so I'll take it. Please do what you can.

[LegendaryWyatt]

Could I also have a link to the community patch, Boeroer?

[Boeroer]

It's not released yet. It's in the making. Beta status if you will. 

It will also get released as several standalone mods so that you can choose which changes you want to use and which not. 

Here are some beta versions:

• basic, extra, keyword-fixing and typo-fixing "patches": https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WFlBV_nkWk8E9ppQqiqLbljMWHjicENd
• the "patch notes" for basic and extra
• unique icons for all passives: https://uploadfiles.io/5wivylco (load this as last mod in the mod manager)

If you want to follow the discussions and the progress on the Community Patch you can follow the "Deadfire Polishing Poll" thread.

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Boeroer

[LegendaryWyatt]

Thank you, I'll check it out shortly.

[Phenomenum]

19 hours ago, Boeroer said:

if it's fixable via mod in the first place.

@LegendaryWyatt I know, where the game stores all Intimidation values - base chance, modifiers, etc - but, unfortunately we have no info about how they functioning together. I can adjust Intimidation chances to lower values, but i need to look more closer. And i need a save file with high-level fully packed player ship to test it.

[Phenomenum]

On 5/31/2019 at 3:35 PM, LegendaryWyatt said:

After I intimidate them they teleport a short distance away and I can intimidate them again... and again... and again. This feels like cheating.

But, honestly... if i have discovered exploit like this, i simply wouldn't use it - the case closed. Every game have an exploits, and i don't know what kind of magic forcing you to use it.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Phenomenum

[LegendaryWyatt]

1 hour ago, Phenomenum said:

But, honestly... if i have discovered exploit like this, i simply wouldn't use it - the case closed. Every game have an exploits, and i don't know what kind of magic forcing you to use it.

Haha, I know what you mean. But for some reason it really irks me. When I found it I spent a solid hour grinding it to get as much money as possible and then stopped and thought "What am I doing?". That was like, a week ago, and I haven't touched the game since.

1 hour ago, Phenomenum said:

@LegendaryWyatt I know, where the game stores all Intimidation values - base chance, modifiers, etc - but, unfortunately we have no info about how they functioning together. I can adjust Intimidation chances to lower values, but i need to look more closer. And i need a save file with high-level fully packed player ship to test it.

I can provide a save file of where I was grinding intimidate for you, if it helps. Ideally I'd like for intimidate to only work once per ship, but as I know you lack sufficient data to do that kind of thing, personally I'd just like intimidate to not work at all. At least until a patch can be made that is ideal. I can't seem to find where my saves are located, though. Can you please guide me?

[Phenomenum]

42 minutes ago, LegendaryWyatt said:

Can you please guide me?

C:\Users\Your_Name\Saved Games\Pillars of Eternity II

[LegendaryWyatt]

The saved games folder is empty for me. Is the file hidden somehow?

[LegendaryWyatt]

After some digging I found it. Here is the save in question. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gyyb0t376pvrerm/Brienna (DeadfireArchipelago) (a98eec2f-90f5-41c9-8c6c-b302347553ac) (LAX-123ABCDEFGHI) (939486911).savegame?dl=0

[Phenomenum]

So, i decided not to break Intimidation system, because it's one of the core game mechanics all in all - Intimidate still have full functionality, no values changed, you have vanilla chance to avoid the fight if you want. But you gain no money and only 3 Food + 3 Drinks - this makes any autistic actions, aimed to farming money or resources, meaningless.

Link: https://uploadfiles.io/decubvc0

Edited June 3, 2019 by Phenomenum

[LegendaryWyatt]

Hey, thanks! This will do.

[xzar_monty]

Incidentally, all of this would be fixed if the economy of the game world was "real". What I mean by this is that the ships you intimidate could only give you money from the amount they actually have (and which you will find out if you board the ship, for example). It's actually a bit strange that this obviously hasn't been taken into account. But then, maybe nobody foresaw the intimidation exploit.

 

Another thing that hasn't been taken into account in just about any CRPG is that shops shouldn't have infinite amounts of money, either. But that's another topic altogether.