[MECHANICS] Various Testing

[Constentin Lévine]

11 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I think this is also why Unbending doesn't proc from things like Berserker frenzy, DAoM etc. it only procs from incoming attack damage. But I don't think it's about having a hit roll or not, because AFAIK Thrust of Tattered Veil, Minor Missiles or a Grub's Crush attack will trigger Unbending and they're unerring - they don't have a roll.

Yes but they count as an attack. Stuffs like pure DoT spells are Status effects, not really the same.

[NotDumbEnough]

Blinded will actually retroactively remove all effects of gaze abilities. e.g. If you use Gaze of the Adragan first, then follow up with Chill Fog, it will remove the petrify effect.

[Not So Clever Hound]

On 4/30/2020 at 6:05 PM, Elric Galad said:

nteresting discovery :

Ancient Brittle Bones and Yet its Mate are 2 Chanter summon upgrades that will cause your summons to Spawn another summon(s) upon death.
However, I just discovered that the new Summon is technically not summoned by the chanter but by the summon itself. Which means :

1) The Summon Intellect is used to determine the duration of the Summon. Skeletons have 10 INT and Drake has 8 INT, so its not a good news.

2) Since the Summon is not technically summoned by the Chanter, it does not count for the 1 Summoned group limit. This is HUGE for the Drake because when you get the second Enraged Drake, if you can cast another summon, you will still keep the drake. Skeletons have such a low duration that it isn't that useful.

3) The new Summon is not a "Beckoner Summon" even if the original one was. It has full life and duration. You can summon 2 weak Drakes, they get killed easily, and now you have 2 Full Drakes that don't count for summon limit. I haven't actually tested it for the Skeletons, but I guess it works the same (but it matters less).


That makes Drake Summon noticeably better than one might think, especially for Beckoner. They aren't still great IMHO, but I'm still working on Summon balance, so unique features are more important for me than raw power.

@Elric Galad just to add to that, I discovered that even for a Beckoner, the second (Enraged Drake) is based on the standard Drake Summon duration (25s) not the reduced Beckoner one (18s). So it will always be 22.5s (25*0.9). That's another plus for the Beckoner, not game breaking but hey, much better than 18*0.9=16.2.

With Sasha's Scimitar and Robe of the Weyc, a SC Beckoner can end up having 2 full size Drakes tanking the enemy, while you position 2 weird looking small Dragons on each side and have them double Tail Lash the enemy party. Pretty cool.  

Also, you can get rid of the base crappy Beckoner Drakes very quickly to get the fully-scaled Enraged ones once you've used their abilities: just move them around to trigger Disengagement attack from the enemies. They only have 100-ish hit points and will die instantly.

[NotDumbEnough]

It seems that the game discerns between flanking from Perception afflictions/Phantom Foes and actually physically flanking. The former counts as a debuff while the latter stacks with everything. This means that the usage of certain abilities are actually quite nuanced, so for example you want to physically flank the enemy before you use Confounding Blind, or else you'll have two deflection penalties that don't stack with each other.

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

@Elric Galad just to add to that, I discovered that even for a Beckoner, the second (Enraged Drake) is based on the standard Drake Summon duration (25s) not the reduced Beckoner one (18s). So it will always be 22.5s (25*0.9). That's another plus for the Beckoner, not game breaking but hey, much better than 18*0.9=16.2.

With Sasha's Scimitar and Robe of the Weyc, a SC Beckoner can end up having 2 full size Drakes tanking the enemy, while you position 2 weird looking small Dragons on each side and have them double Tail Lash the enemy party. Pretty cool.  

Also, you can get rid of the base crappy Beckoner Drakes very quickly to get the fully-scaled Enraged ones once you've used their abilities: just move them around to trigger Disengagement attack from the enemies. They only have 100-ish hit points and will die instantly.

I think the information that Beckoner secondary drakes are full health ones should appear somewhere in this thread or another one . That said, drakes are still meh without BPM IMHO.

[Not So Clever Hound]

43 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I think the information that Beckoner secondary drakes are full health ones should appear somewhere in this thread or another one .

Yes, and as @theleepointed out in his guide, they get the full PotD scaling of enemies (increased defenses, accuracy, armor rating, penetration). But, you can't command them, and they're not interested in using their special abilities (unlike the enemy drakes you might stumble upon, or the original ones you can command ).

46 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

That said, drakes are still meh without BPM IMHO.

After 1200+ hours of having satisfyingly broken the base game with Community Patch left and right... I'm finally going to start implementing your BPM mod in my game . I'm starting with Summon Rebalancing because I'd like to play a bunch of Chanters right now. Later probably the Buffs and, if I can work through the psychological trauma, the Debuffs as well. I already love the before/after of playing a SC Beckoner - which makes me wonder even more why you rated SC Chanter so low in your rating, assuming you had the BPM version in mind   .

[NotDumbEnough]

It seems that Tricksters can go around scaring people with Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage without breaking invisibility, at least for Enduring Shadows. Note the Backstab here applying after the RRV proc.

[dgray62]

That's funny.....scaring people with an illusory appearance while invisible.

[Elric Galad]

I remember reading somewhere that Lion's Sprint only granted accuracy for weapons. But the gamedata say otherwise. Can anyone confirm ? (I'll make the testing myself soon anyway)

[Boeroer]

It doesn't work for me when I try it with spells. 

[Elric Galad]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

It doesn't work for me when I try it with spells. 

There is no filter based on type of attack. The effect is simply removed on attack. Therefore I strongly suspect that is depends on what happens between the attack launch and its resolution. Does it work with ranged weapon attacks with projectile ? Maybe it works with some spells without instantaneous application.

[Boeroer]

Did run a few tests because the last time I even picked Lion's Sprint was ages ago. I remembered that the ACC bonus didn't work well and not with spells I tried back then, but I also had the impression that it really didn't work at all - but was not completey sure about that anymore. So I made a level 20 Barb/Wizard/Cipher/Druid with the console in order to test some different types of attacks rolls (with no other active ACC buffs) and tested some actions:
 

• Essence Interrupter, auto attack: no bonus
• Essence Interrupter, Barbaric Blow: no bonus
• Mace, auto attack: +15 ACC
• Mace, Barbaric Blow: +15 ACC
• Mace, Tast of the Hunt: +15 ACC
• Concelhaut's Draining Touch, Barbaric Blow: +15 ACC
• Necrotic Lance: no bonus
• Minoletta's Bounding Missiles: no bonus
• Fireball: no bonus
• Jolting Touch: no bonus
• Grimoire Slam: +15 ACC
• Kalakoth's Sunless Grasp: +15 ACC
• Disintegrate: no bonus
• Miasma of Dull-Mindedness: no bonus
• Sunlance: +15 ACC

While using ranged weapons or spells: distance to the target makes no difference (like with Backstab for example).

First I thought it's melee-only - because the spells that got the +15 ACC bonus have no visible range and are basically melee "touch" spells.
But then Sunlance happened...
But then I remembered that Sunlance also works with Monk's Instruments of Pain (giving the spell *6 range) - same as the other spells above that count as "melee" spells and work with Lion's Sprint: they all work with Intruments of Pain, too. So I'm sure SUnlance is just accidentially labeled as melee spell. And all abilities that work with Instruments of Pain will also work with Lion's Sprint.  
So my conclusion is the Lion's Sprint only gets applied to attacks that are labeled as "melee" (not melee weapon, weapon tag not needed).

So even if there's no filter on the actual Lion's Sprint ability: somwhere it gets filtered. Don't ask me where...  Is it maybe so that the restriction is put on the base ability Wild Sprint and Lion's Sprint inherits that restriction or something? Just taking wild guesses here...

I used the CP but not the BPM.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Don't know if this trick is known, but it's useful especially for people who try to solo Changeling's Dance encounter. At the start of the fight you lose the bonuses from items, however you can keep the bonuses given by some items at the start:

• Shifting Chroma (from Pearlescent Rhomboid Helstone)
• Kaul's Stance (from Eager Blade)
• Drawing Parry (from Duskfall)
• First to the Fight (from Furrante's Breastplate)
• Pelt of Many Kinds (from Changeling's Mantle)

Indecisive from Orishia should have been also in the list but it's bugged. Bravado from Gipon Prudensko is removed when the armor is replaced.

Special mention for Nemnok's cloak and monks. If the monk has Iron Wheel activated at the start of the fight and if his life is increased by more than 30% then he is able to trigger Spirit Shield from the cloak.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Kaylon

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Did run a few tests because the last time I even picked Lion's Sprint was ages ago. I remembered that the ACC bonus didn't work well and not with spells I tried back then, but I also had the impression that it really didn't work at all - but was not completey sure about that anymore. So I made a level 20 Barb/Wizard/Cipher/Druid with the console in order to test some different types of attacks rolls (with no other active ACC buffs) and tested some actions:
 

• Essence Interrupter, auto attack: no bonus
• Essence Interrupter, Barbaric Blow: no bonus
• Mace, auto attack: +15 ACC
• Mace, Barbaric Blow: +15 ACC
• Mace, Tast of the Hunt: +15 ACC
• Concelhaut's Draining Touch, Barbaric Blow: +15 ACC
• Necrotic Lance: no bonus
• Minoletta's Bounding Missiles: no bonus
• Fireball: no bonus
• Jolting Touch: no bonus
• Grimoire Slam: +15 ACC
• Kalakoth's Sunless Grasp: +15 ACC
• Disintegrate: no bonus
• Miasma of Dull-Mindedness: no bonus
• Sunlance: +15 ACC

While using ranged weapons or spells: distance to the target makes no difference (like with Backstab for example).

First I thought it's melee-only - because the spells that got the +15 ACC bonus have no visible range and are basically melee "touch" spells.
But then Sunlance happened...
But then I remembered that Sunlance also works with Monk's Instruments of Pain (giving the spell *6 range) - same as the other spells above that count as "melee" spells and work with Lion's Sprint: they all work with Intruments of Pain, too. So I'm sure SUnlance is just accidentially labeled as melee spell. And all abilities that work with Instruments of Pain will also work with Lion's Sprint.  
So my conclusion is the Lion's Sprint only gets applied to attacks that are labeled as "melee" (not melee weapon, weapon tag not needed).

So even if there's no filter on the actual Lion's Sprint ability: somwhere it gets filtered. Don't ask me where...  Is it maybe so that the restriction is put on the base ability Wild Sprint and Lion's Sprint inherits that restriction or something? Just taking wild guesses here...

I used the CP but not the BPM.

No, it's much more basic. The effect is coded as +15 Acc that stops when an attack is launched.

Melee attacks are solved immediately when launched.

Ranged ones seem to have a little delay (kind of projectile delay).

 

I just added a secondary effect that adds +15 Acc for fixed 1s when an attack is launched et voilà, now all attacks including spells within 1s of 1st attack benefit from the acc bonus.

It benefits full attacks incidentaly, but I think it is not bad for versatility of barbarian.

[Constentin Lévine]

On 12/25/2021 at 7:12 AM, NotDumbEnough said:

It seems that Tricksters can go around scaring people with Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage without breaking invisibility, at least for Enduring Shadows. Note the Backstab here applying after the RRV proc.

The Trickster's spells are working also with the Form of the Fearsome Brute active ; I suppose they are more likely abilities than spells, that can explain the difference maybe.

[Boeroer]

14 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

No, it's much more basic. The effect is coded as +15 Acc that stops when an attack is launched.

Melee attacks are solved immediately when launched.

Ranged ones seem to have a little delay (kind of projectile delay).

It benefits full attacks incidentaly, but I think it is not bad for versatility of barbarian.

Then why does Freezing Rake work but Jolting Touch doesn't? They don't seem to have different timespans between launch and impact. Maybe the difference is so subtle that it's not noticeable... Sulance: the lance comes from above and maybe the animation is quick enough so the hit roll still happens in time after launch. I wonder if similar spells than don't originate from the caster but from above the target (and are fast enough - Sunbeam maybe?) work the same?

1 sec is an easy fix and def. an improvement - but what about stuff like Bounding Missiles, Mind Blades, Missile Barrage, Mind Lance, Eld Nary etc.? Some (the first few) of their multiple attack rolls will fall into the 1 sec duration, some later will not. Still a bit confusing, isn't it?

How do bonuses like Blood Thirst or Takedown Combo get removed (for comparison)?  

[Elric Galad]

31 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Then why does Freezing Rake work but Jolting Touch doesn't? They don't seem to have different timespans between launch and impact. Maybe the difference is so subtle that it's not noticeable... Sulance: the lance comes from above and maybe the animation is quick enough so the hit roll still happens in time after launch. I wonder if similar spells than don't originate from the caster but from above the target (and are fast enough - Sunbeam maybe?) work the same?

Maybe. I cant be sure what exactly works or not in the base game. It would require extensive testing (even more than the one that you did).

The problem is easier to solve than to analyse precisely  

31 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

1 sec is an easy fix and def. an improvement - but what about stuff like Bounding Missiles, Mind Blades, Missile Barrage, Mind Lance, Eld Nary etc.? Some (the first few) of their multiple attack rolls will fall into the 1 sec duration, some later will not. Still a bit confusing, isn't it?

Yes, but these effects technically have separate attacks. So if the Lions Sprint bonus works for some of them, it's still better than the description that say for 1 attack ; better to give player "a bit more" (And the 1s appear in the description, so it's not THAT confusing).

A bit like Assassin bonus that works better with some abilities than other. Covering Full Attacks was a reasonable target IMHO.

31 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

How do bonuses like Blood Thirst or Takedown Combo get removed (for comparison)?  

Blood Thirst is instant and Takedown Combo applies to the target, getting removed after 1st hit.

[Boeroer]

Eh sorry, I meant Sunless Grasp, not Freezing Rake.

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Blood Thirst is instant and Takedown Combo applies to the target, getting removed after 1st hit.

Blood Thirst has a a duration but gets remove prematurely if you use an action during that time. How is the trigger implemented that removes Blood Thirst (noo need to look it up if you don't know it from the top of your head, I'm just curious)?
Right about Takedown Combo, forgot that it is placed on the enemy.

Anyway: 1 sec duration seems like a good solution if the 1 sec is also mentioned in the description. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Boeroer

[Testlum]

How does negative Power Level work? I tested this with the Lifegiver subclass, and apparently having negative PL doesn't merely apply the flipped values of its positive counterpart. 

Lifegivers always have a default bonus of +2 Rejuvenation PL, but lose 4 Rejuvenation PL after Spiritshift ends, so they end up with a total of -2 Rejuvenation PL.

Before:

After:

EDIT: Ah, nevermind, found an answer here:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/inversions

Edited December 30, 2021 by Testlum

[Not So Clever Hound]

4 hours ago, Testlum said:

EDIT: Ah, nevermind, found an answer here

Yeah, inversions make negative modifiers much more impactful as @thelee brilliantly explained. Which is good when you're using e.g. Recovery reduction buffs and bad when negatively adjusting your damage or healing etc.  

This is also why the BPM version of Hand of Berath can be very powerful IMO:

Hand of Berath :
- minus 5PL -> minus 10PL
- Now auto-hit.
- <Version 1.5.2> Duration 30s -> 45s

Go dig your offensive or healing abilities out of a -10PL pit.

[Elric Galad]

Stupid question I have never checked : does anyone know how Focus and Shattered Pillar Wound generation interact with lashes (such as Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel and various weapon effect) ?

Do they benefit from it ?

CP added a 20% raw lash to Biting Whip, I would guess it generates Focus.

[Constentin Lévine]

For focus , with 41 damages from Great Sword :

without lash : 30 focus

with 15%fire lash (+6) : 35 focus

The lash is just a multiplier after all!

 

[Boeroer]

Afaik lashes count towards the dmg threshold a Shattered Pillar has to deal for a wound. 

And afaik Swift Flurry/HBD procs do not. So Lightning Strikes should be the better pick. And if you value wound generation over focus generation then your Shattered Pillar/Cipher should pick (CP's) Biting Whip?

Edited January 1, 2022 by Boeroer

[Testlum]

Couldn't find most of the Chanter summon abilities listed anywhere, so here they are:

Wisps

Ogres 

Drake

Dank Spore

 

Dragon 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Testlum