How would you change penetration values or would you change them at all?

[Kovil]

Basically the title.

 

Making some small mods for myself mostly,thinking on the concept of armor\penetration.

 

Looking for some opinions on penetration system!

Edited April 4, 2019 by Kovil

[thelee]

I wouldn't change the PEN/AR system so much as add more variety to the ranges and damage types for enemies.

 

My main complaint (in contrast to some other people here I generally like the PEN/AR system) is that on PoTD with upscaling it's a little bit of an arms race that can become an all-or-nothing proposition with AR for your characters (to the point where medium or light armor may not even be worth the recovery time because either way you might be overpenetrated by enemy anyway). Greater variety of enemy PEN ranges and making damage types a bit more rationalized would help.

[xzar_monty]

Would not change them at all. Within the parameters of the system as devised, I think it works quite well.

 

However, I would do away with the system altogther, because I don't think it's a particularly good way of categorizing weapon effectiveness. But this was not your question, and doing this would be outside the bounds of your mod.

Edited April 4, 2019 by xzar_monty

[Kovil]

I wouldn't change the PEN/AR system so much as add more variety to the ranges and damage types for enemies.

 

My main complaint (in contrast to some other people here I generally like the PEN/AR system) is that on PoTD with upscaling it's a little bit of an arms race that can become an all-or-nothing proposition with AR for your characters (to the point where medium or light armor may not even be worth the recovery time because either way you might be overpenetrated by enemy anyway). Greater variety of enemy PEN ranges and making damage types a bit more rationalized would help.

I've seen people suggested to add some sort of scaling(e.g. 2-3% damage per bonus penetration) and the other way around.In theory it would give lighter armors some purpose even if you get penetrated anyway.What do you think about it?

Edited April 4, 2019 by Kovil

[Kovil]

Would not change them at all. Within the parameters of the system as devised, I think it works quite well.

 

However, I would do away with the system altogther, because I don't think it's a particularly good way of categorizing weapon effectiveness. But this was not your question, and doing this would be outside the bounds of your mod.

Yeah remaking the whole thing is neither possible nor the goal =)

[Ensign]

The only parts I would fiddle with are over penetration thresholds and the bonus penetration from crits. Those two mechanics are multipliers of armor instead of arithmetic differences, which makes them behave differently throughout the game. I'd fiddle with changing those to a flat AR difference threshold for overpen and a flat penetration bonus on crit.

[thelee]

 

I wouldn't change the PEN/AR system so much as add more variety to the ranges and damage types for enemies.

 

My main complaint (in contrast to some other people here I generally like the PEN/AR system) is that on PoTD with upscaling it's a little bit of an arms race that can become an all-or-nothing proposition with AR for your characters (to the point where medium or light armor may not even be worth the recovery time because either way you might be overpenetrated by enemy anyway). Greater variety of enemy PEN ranges and making damage types a bit more rationalized would help.

I've seen people suggested to add some sort of scaling(e.g. 2-3% damage per bonus penetration) and the other way around.In theory it would give lighter armors some purpose even if you get penetrated anyway.What do you think about it?

 

 

i think one of the goals of AR vs PEN was to make each point potentially really meaningful and so I don't like the idea of adding tiny percentages of something.

 

i think what might be a better idea is to give lighter armors more of a niche. Like, give them all blanket defense against spell PEN or something. i don't know how to solve medium armor - they sit in a kind of a weird zone, in my experience they are only really useful extremely late game where you're overleveled and they can actually provide meaningful damage reduction, or against enemy spell casters who don't have as good PEN scaling, but adjusting light armor to have bonus defense against spells would negate this. These are all half-baked ideas of mine, so I dunno.

[Blarghagh]

I'm so proud of you guys.

[Ensign]

My main complaint (in contrast to some other people here I generally like the PEN/AR system) is that on PoTD with upscaling it's a little bit of an arms race that can become an all-or-nothing proposition with AR for your characters (to the point where medium or light armor may not even be worth the recovery time because either way you might be overpenetrated by enemy anyway).

I agree with this, and I think it's more to do with some of the map levels being set too low for the foes in them. The Neketaka transition encounters for instance seem like they have an almost absurdly low level, since I see full upscaling on them every time even if you hit them at level 7.

[Kovil]

 

 

I wouldn't change the PEN/AR system so much as add more variety to the ranges and damage types for enemies.

 

My main complaint (in contrast to some other people here I generally like the PEN/AR system) is that on PoTD with upscaling it's a little bit of an arms race that can become an all-or-nothing proposition with AR for your characters (to the point where medium or light armor may not even be worth the recovery time because either way you might be overpenetrated by enemy anyway). Greater variety of enemy PEN ranges and making damage types a bit more rationalized would help.

I've seen people suggested to add some sort of scaling(e.g. 2-3% damage per bonus penetration) and the other way around.In theory it would give lighter armors some purpose even if you get penetrated anyway.What do you think about it?

 

 

i think one of the goals of AR vs PEN was to make each point potentially really meaningful and so I don't like the idea of adding tiny percentages of something.

 

i think what might be a better idea is to give lighter armors more of a niche. Like, give them all blanket defense against spell PEN or something. i don't know how to solve medium armor - they sit in a kind of a weird zone, in my experience they are only really useful extremely late game where you're overleveled and they can actually provide meaningful damage reduction, or against enemy spell casters who don't have as good PEN scaling, but adjusting light armor to have bonus defense against spells would negate this. These are all half-baked ideas of mine, so I dunno.

 

 

The thing that bothers me personally is that all armor does is protect you from overpenetration(well unless you go all the way ofc),so each point of armor is meaningless if you are getting penetrated anyway.Idk maybe its my personal bias cause I really like gradual improvents....

Edited April 4, 2019 by Kovil

[Boeroer]

I wouldn't change PEN and AR values with difficulty. Then this one single mechanic wouldn't become more and more important with increased difficulty.
It's too coarse-granular for that and leads to a situation where certain weapons and abilities become worse picks just because they lack PEN for example.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Boeroer

[bringingyouthefuture]

Here was an interesting thread where @Phenomenum was working on a mod:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/102435-armor-penetration-is-a-pain-in-the-ass-stacking-armor-is-op/page-3

 

I found when I tried an earlier version where he scaled the damage for PEN made the game a lot easier.  I like the idea of potentially boosting the PEN for some weapon mods maybe perhaps just the two-handed ones, but then would potentially reduce the damage for over penetration only to strike some sort of balance??  It's strange but I play on PoTD and never have a problem with PEN when playing a whole party.  So  you might want to ask are you playing PoTD solo or with a party?  It seems to me like you are looking to reduce the impact of over PEN - but remember it will affect you and enemies - which most likely will make it a little more of a grind.  It also makes armor buffs less valuable.  To me the PEN system is the most realistic implementation of what armor would actually do - except in the cases of magic.  I would prefer a more scaling damage system for magic where resistance and reflex, fortitude etc affect damage and hits - though you can make an argument how armor could affect magic penetration I guess.

Edited April 4, 2019 by bringingyouthefuture

[Phenomenum]

Go on 

Just do not repeat my mistakes: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241
"Mistakes", becose PEN/AR system is very sensitive and needs a fine tuning of Armor and Weapon/Spells Pen. values in first place. Otherwise, every change looks like a trap - you fix one thing, and break another. Becose too much things connected together with AR/PEN - Weapon modals, Penetration/Armor buffs, food buffs, Potions, and so on.

Very complex ****. And i consider my mod is only partially good, becose it solves some problems, but creating some new.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Phenomenum]

Ou, and i agree with Boeroer: scaling AR with difficulty was a bad move, becose AR/PEN system based on flat integer numbers and needs fine tuned values to functional properly. Flat +1/2 to AR breaks all system.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Ensign]

You can scale AR and PEN with difficulty or with upscaling but not both. Even 'end game' enemies are usually level 16, so on PotD upscale they'll get +2 from PotD and +2 from level scaling.

 

I think the +2 ar/pen at par is important to keep the mechanic relevant to modest optimization but the +4 you frequently encounter really narrows down the range of acceptable options.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Ensign

[thelee]

Ou, and i agree with Boeroer: scaling AR with difficulty was a bad move, becose AR/PEN system based on flat integer numbers and needs fine tuned values to functional properly. Flat +1/2 to AR breaks all system.

 

i don't completely buy this - I find that with the +2 AR (and upscaling) on POTD is the only way I actually care about AR/PEN. Maybe Veteran's +1 is a better "balance" (can't say for sure), but basically it seems like it amounts to a non-factor on normal or less - the balance between you and the enemy is such that it's either literally not relevant or you can just brute force your way because maybe you're just only -1 behind (whereas before you might be -2 or -3, which is actually severe).

 

edit - Ensign's post went through before I clicked "post" on my message, but I think I agree with Ensign. With the current balance of AR/PEN I would argue that the +2 flat AR on PotD is fine (though I can be persuaded that Veteran's flat +1 is a better target), but the upscaling of AR/PEN is really what helps add to that arms race feel in a way that +3 acc/defense per level doesn't. So you probably should only have one or the other.

Edited April 4, 2019 by thelee

[Kovil]

Go on 

Just do not repeat my mistakes: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241

"Mistakes", becose PEN/AR system is very sensitive and needs a fine tuning of Armor and Weapon/Spells Pen. values in first place. Otherwise, every change looks like a trap - you fix one thing, and break another. Becose too much things connected together with AR/PEN - Weapon modals, Penetration/Armor buffs, food buffs, Potions, and so on.

 

Very complex ****. And i consider my mod is only partially good, becose it solves some problems, but creating some new.

So you suggest not touching pen at all cause its so interconnected and basically impossible to balance?

I always thought +1 pen for everyone would just mean higher damage output from enemies and allies alike.

[Kovil]

Ok so here is another question for you guys.How would you restructure pen\ar values\thresholds so it more closely resemples poe1 system which im my humble opinion was better(not for realism's sake but from gameplay perspective)?Is there any way to make this work?

 

The idea of trading defence for damage feels much better than just trying not to get overpenetrated.

[Phenomenum]

I always thought +1 pen for everyone would just mean higher damage output from enemies and allies alike.

 

It's not so simple. For example, if you feel lack of Pen, you can simply tune down all enemies armor in global.gamedatabundle.

                        {

                            "Difficulty": "PathOfTheDamned",

                            "HealthMultiplier": 1.25,

                            "AccuracyBonus": 15,

                            "DefenseBonus": 15,

                            "ArmorBonus": 2, <- Change this to -1

                            "PenetrationBonus": 2,

                            "LevelMultiplier": 1,

                            "RecoveryTimeMultiplier": 1,

                            "DisengagementAccuracyBonus": 0,

                            "HostileEffectDurationMultiplier": 1

                        },

 

So you suggest not touching pen at all cause its so interconnected and basically impossible to balance?

 

Why impossible? All is possible if you have enough time to test. In case of AR/PEN, you need to balance all related abilities, bonuses, penalties and, what is more important, test it.

During my work with Penetration Mod, i realized one day, that i need to change so much things and spend dozens of hours testing and balancing that... basically, the result is not worth the effort.

I'll upload a new version after big batch - more simplified and not so demanding in tuning other mechanics aspects. But, anyway, it will not solve all problems. That's it.

 

[Kovil]

Why impossible? All is possible if you have enough time to test. In case of AR/PEN, you need to balance all related abilities, bonuses, penalties and, what is more important, test it.

During my work with Penetration Mod, i realized one day, that i need to change so much things and spend dozens of hours testing and balancing that... basically, the result is not worth the effort.

I'll upload a new version after big batch - more simplified and not so demanding in tuning other mechanics aspects. But, anyway, it will not solve all problems. That's it.

 

Hmm makes sense.Thanks for the advice!

[Phenomenum]

Ok so here is another question for you guys.How would you restructure pen\ar values\thresholds so it more closely resemples poe1 system which im my humble opinion was better(not for realism's sake but from gameplay perspective)?Is there any way to make this work?

 

If you want to replicate PoE 1 DR, the only way to do it, is remove all Pen values from all attacks and then attach to all armor (and every creature) Damage Shield, which should refresh after every attack. In fact, several damage shields for every damage type. Technically it will work exactly like in PoE 1 (i know how to do it and i've tested it), but imagine how it will be time consuming! More than that, you need to set all DR values for everything and everyone from scratch. Basically, you need to design the whole DR system. Se futtito! Madiccho!

Edited April 4, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Phenomenum]

i don't completely buy this - I find that with the +2 AR (and upscaling) on POTD is the only way I actually care about AR/PEN. Maybe Veteran's +1 is a better "balance" (can't say for sure), but basically it seems like it amounts to a non-factor on normal or less - the balance between you and the enemy is such that it's either literally not relevant or you can just brute force your way because maybe you're just only -1 behind (whereas before you might be -2 or -3, which is actually severe).

 

edit - Ensign's post went through before I clicked "post" on my message, but I think I agree with Ensign. With the current balance of AR/PEN I would argue that the +2 flat AR on PotD is fine (though I can be persuaded that Veteran's flat +1 is a better target), but the upscaling of AR/PEN is really what helps add to that arms race feel in a way that +3 acc/defense per level doesn't. So you probably should only have one or the other.

 

I usually use PotD + upscaling only and sometimes it feels too-o-o much. I think, if i change PotD bonus to +1, then, combined with +2 from level scaling, it should be a "Goldilocks recipe".

Edited April 4, 2019 by Phenomenum

[thelee]

 

i don't completely buy this - I find that with the +2 AR (and upscaling) on POTD is the only way I actually care about AR/PEN. Maybe Veteran's +1 is a better "balance" (can't say for sure), but basically it seems like it amounts to a non-factor on normal or less - the balance between you and the enemy is such that it's either literally not relevant or you can just brute force your way because maybe you're just only -1 behind (whereas before you might be -2 or -3, which is actually severe).

 

edit - Ensign's post went through before I clicked "post" on my message, but I think I agree with Ensign. With the current balance of AR/PEN I would argue that the +2 flat AR on PotD is fine (though I can be persuaded that Veteran's flat +1 is a better target), but the upscaling of AR/PEN is really what helps add to that arms race feel in a way that +3 acc/defense per level doesn't. So you probably should only have one or the other.

 

I usually use PotD + upscaling only and sometimes it feels too-o-o much. I think, if i change PotD bonus to +1, then, combined with +2 from level scaling, it should be a "Goldilocks recipe".

 

 

is the scaling amount of PEN/AR adjustable? because I could see either +1 with current scaling or +2 with 1/2 scaling could work.

[Phenomenum]

is the scaling amount of PEN/AR adjustable? because I could see either +1 with current scaling or +2 with 1/2 scaling could work.

 

                    "LevelScalingArmorLevelIncrement": 3,

                    "LevelScalingArmorModifier": 1,

                    "LevelScalingPenetrationLevelIncrement": 2,

                    "LevelScalingPenetrationModifier": 1,

 

It means +1 Armor each 3 Levels and +1 Pen each 2 levels.

 

Though i don't understand, how it works, becose

                            "ExpectedDifferenceMin": 4,

                            "ExpectedDifferenceMax": 4,

                            "AdjustedLevelAmount": 4

Max scaling adjustment is +4 levels to base creature level (e.g. native level 6, max scaling to level 10).

Edited April 4, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Kovil]

 

is the scaling amount of PEN/AR adjustable? because I could see either +1 with current scaling or +2 with 1/2 scaling could work.

 

                    "LevelScalingArmorLevelIncrement": 3,

                    "LevelScalingArmorModifier": 1,

                    "LevelScalingPenetrationLevelIncrement": 2,

                    "LevelScalingPenetrationModifier": 1,

 

It means +1 Armor each 3 Levels and +1 Pen each 2 levels.

 

Though i don't understand, how it works, becose

                            "ExpectedDifferenceMin": 4,

                            "ExpectedDifferenceMax": 4,

                            "AdjustedLevelAmount": 4

Max scaling adjustment is +4 levels to base creature level (e.g. native level 6, max scaling to level 10).

 

Wait thats for mobs only,right?A bit conused here.