Offtank Dual Wield DPS - Holy Slayer vs Shadowdancer vs ?

[elbe]

I have been experimenting with different builds to try and find the ideal dual wield DPS striker that can still offer some defensive capability.  My current playthrough as a Holyslayer (Bleak Walker / Streetfighter) which on paper is fantastic, but from a flavour perspective RPing as a Bleakwalker has been surprisingly annoying and unenjoyable.

 

I have been trying to think of an alternative that fits the following criteria:

• Focus on dual wielding (mainly for flavour);
• Primarily DPS;
• Ability to off-tank / take some heat (not interested in more "glass cannon" combinations like Beserker / Helwalker or Helwalker / Streetfighter);
• Decent at all stages in the game (I'd prefer not to have level 19 build defining abilities which is why SC monk hasn't appealed to me).

I have been thinking a Shadowdancer (Tricker / Helwalker) should fit the bill but on paper it doesn't seem to compare all that well to the Holyslayer.

 

Let's take damage bonuses.  The Holyslayer gets:

• 32% from Flames of Devotion with Bleak Walker bonus;
• 30-50% from Sneak Attack with Streetfighter bonus;
• 25% from Retribution at full stack;
• 20% from Sworn Rival; and
• 50% from Deathblows.

For a total of +177% under ideal conditions (which isn't too difficult to satisfy).  Importantly, other than Retribution most of these bonuses are available right from the get-go (assuming Persistent Distraction + Bleak Walker FOD triggers the Sneak Attack + Death Blows conditions).

 

The Shadowdancer gets:

• 30% from Helwalker might bonus at full stack;
• 15% from Thunderous Blows;
• 20% from Turning Wheel at full stack;
• 20% from Trickster Sneak Attack;
• 50% from Deathblows.

For a total of +135% under ideal conditions.  I could take it up to +150% with Lightning Strikes but realistically I would probably want Swift Flurry instead.  A lot of these bonuses will have a "ramp up" time, however, because they are dependent on wounds.  Of course, there is also the bonus attacks provided by Swift Flurry and later Heartbeat Drumming, which are a little difficult to quantify.  However I am not particularly swayed by these as I feel the Shadowdancer does not have a way to consistently boost accuracy and therefore reliably crit compared with the Holy Slayer (Enduring Dance being the main booster, which is +12 under ideal scenarios but is not consistent when off-tanking).

 

The Holy Slayer, however, knocks accuracy out of the park.  Flames of Devotion (+10) plus Ring of Focused Flame (+10) plus Helm of the White Void (+10) plus Zealous Aura (+5) plus Persistent Distraction (effective +10) + whatever bonus Sworn Rival gives (assuming these all stack) is a whopping +45 effective accuracy or more each FoD.  It also gets +35 accuracy with Confounding Blind which applies a further stacking deflection penalty.  This should be enough to reliably crit on FoD attacks, which are fairly spammable.  I'm not sure if there is anything else which can compare with this?

 

Defensively as well I give the edge to the Holyslayer.  The inherent bonus to all defensives from the Paladin, Lay on Hands and resistances to afflictions I think beat out what the Shadowdancer can offer, and the Holyslayer is also less susceptible to Arcane Dampener.  On top of that, the Holyslayer offers some slight party benefits through Shared Flames + Aura + Lay on Hands if need be, whereas the Shadowdancer practically adds nothing from a support perspective.

 

So is there something I am missing here, or does the Holyslayer just trounce the Shadowdancer in all departments?  Am I deeply undervaluing the benefits of Swift Flurry + Heartbeat Drumming, even without a way to reliable score crits?  Or is there another class combination that I am overlooking?

 

[Waski]

Transcendent (monk/soul blade) is not to shabby, can debuff and pump some nice numbers too. With selfbuffs can take a hit or two.

Secret Horrors with high INT from wounds can shut down enemies for looong time, borrowed instinct is one of the best buffs and on top of that disintegration on weakened by your crits enemies.

Edit. And "permanent" +3 pen as a nice bonus, not to mention you should not run out of resources in longer fights

Edited February 5, 2019 by Waski

[Haplok]

You have compared an active skill for Holy Slayer (FoD) vs passives for SD. At least add Crippling Strike for another +25% damage (and 2 more PEN!). Or Devastating Blow for up to 300%. And sure, you should add Lightning Strikes 15% IMO. Even if you're not gonna end using them, Swift Flurry is also a DPS gain.

Monk also offers aoe attacks, such as Raised torrent, Flagellant's path, which are more difficult to calculate for damage output. Most of them primary though. And Skyward Kick for +50% primary damage. Stunning Surge for CC.

 

On the other hand, a Streetfighter adds +50% sneak damage on top of the regular 30-60% (Trickster 20-50%) and 50% Deathblows for up to +160% total sneak bonus.

[MountainTiger]

A few thoughts:

 

FoD, Turning Wheel, and Lightning Strikes are all lashes-so they're multiplicative with other bonuses, not additive.

 

On the rogue side, you're moving from a class focused on damage to one focused on defense; the offensive contribution from that side is naturally going to decline.

 

On the other side, you're moving from a class specializing in big up-front hits to one focused on action speed and sustaining resources over long fights, and then you're comparing an active ability to autoattacks. Again, you should see a drop in paper max damage.

 

The monk gets you a few things: you can shift attributes from Might to other stats (a Helwalker can hit the cap from 20 passive Might; if you're building a Watcher with Berath's Blessings and Gift from the Machine, you only need 17 from gear and character creation options), so you can invest more in other stats without sacrificing damage. Helwalkers have unrivaled access to stat boosts; on the topic of tanking remember that +15 Might, +5 Dex, +10 Int from Monk abilities mean +30 Fort, +10 Reflex, and +20 Will in addition to the offensive boosts.

 

Monks also have access to one of the best defensive items in the game in Tuotilo's Palm. With a full stack of wounds, it provides more deflection than a large shield without an accuracy penalty and counting as an offhand weapon that scales with Transcendent Suffering. It has crappy base damage, so it's not as good for DPS as a real weapon, but it has solid accuracy and penetration and weapons don't provide +28 Deflection and Reflex (when fully enchanted and using weapon and shield style).

[Boeroer]

Exactly. You cannot simply add the damage bonuses like that.

 

Damage bonuses like Sneak Attack are additive dmg bonuses which have weapon bas damage as... well, base.

 

Lashes take the overall damage (you see in the combat log)  and multiply it. This is usually better than an additive bonus. Best results you get when you can add lots of additive dmg bonuses (MIG, quality enchantments, Sneak Attack, Deathblows, Backstab and so on) and combine them with a high lash (e.g. Flames of Devotion with Dragon's Dowry etc.). Usually this combo is better than only go into lashes (Paladin + Monk) or only go into additive dmg bonuses (Rogue + Cipher). Depends on weapon choice though and if you have a Chanter with Mith Fyr and whatnot. 

 

Also keep in mind that abilities get +5% base damage per additional Power Level. This means that a for example a single class Rogue with Prestige will have an Arterial Strike with *1.45 base damage (10 PL - 1 PL = 9 * 5 = 45%). This is multiplictive since it's base damage - so at least as good as a 45% lash. If you combine that with the plentyful dmg bonuses a rogue can have this leads to great damage. A multiclass Rogue/Paladin can only get to PL 7 (items and comsumables aside) so his PL bonus on Arterial Strike is only 5*5 = 25%. This is a difference of 20% multiplicative dmg - so what a paladin/rogue with FoD would give you. 

 

Multiclass synergies are nice - especially since they start to unfold early. On the other hand single classes are always 1 to 2 PLs ahead. This not only means they get access to certain gamebreakers earlier (or at all) but also have higher base damage, PEN and ACC with their abilites.

 

Don't forget the above when comparing damage potential of single class vs. multiclass. 

 

Of the above I would think that Shadowdancer (Streetfighter/Helwalker) would win the race for best (sustained) dps. I think he would need to give way to a single class monk or rogue in the end though. Their PL8/9 abilites are just too strong.

 

I would also consider a Mindstalker (Assassin or whatever/Soulblade). With Sun & Moon for example you'll get plenty of dmg - and stuff like Borrowed Instinct is great for both defense and offense.  

Edited February 5, 2019 by Boeroer

[elbe]

Interesting!  I never knew about lash damage being multiplicative - always thought all positive bonuses were additive.  And yes my mistake in not factoring in crippling strike on the shadow dancer as a spammable full attack.

 

@Boeroer:  I have always wanted to take a single-class monk on a full playthrough but every time it just feels like their flagship abilities and passives come so late.  Admittedly I've only ever made it to around level 12 or so on my single class Helwalker, but the lack of full attacks was really noticeable and it felt like I was just auto-attacking most of the time to save wounds.  Even with stunning surge, at  mid-levels the crit rate didn't feel reliable enough and 2 mortification for no bonus accuracy or damage felt a bit steep.  I suppose shadowdancer has more active abilities to play with in the early/mid game.

 

Haven't considered the soul blade multis in much detail, although I feel as though I'd be gimping myself going as DW instead of using WotEP (and while Sun and Moon definitely makes up for that somewhat, I feel like I've had my fair share with that weapon on the Holy Slayer!).

 

A few questions:

• Are the bonus attacks from stunning surge and heartbeat drumming full attacks or just an extra attack with the weapon that triggers the crit?
• Can a Helwalker SC monk generate wounds fast enough with just Enduring Dance to use Whispers of the Wind regularly?
• Also on Enduring Dance, how much of a pain in the ass is it for a melee monk to maintain?  Is it enough to reliable keep the monk's accuracy high until PL8?

[Boeroer]

When I use Stunning Surge a lot I always wear Mortification Bindings and sometimes also Devil's Breastplate.

Singel class Monks not only scale their abilites sooner than multiclass monks, also their fists scale with Power Level (as opposed to summoned weapons which scale with char level). That means an unarmed single class Monk profits twofold from higher Power Level - twice a bonus to: base dmg, PEN bonus and ACC bonus. 

 

Then a single class Monk gets access to the really good stuff a lot earlier (Turning Wheel, Raised Torment, Endurung Dance, Stunning Surge etc.). So even if they may not be as powerful in the mid levels as a meticulously planned Shadowdancer (but honestly I doubt that they are weaker) they are still very capable without any fuss. And then they totally take off at PL 8. I played a single class Monk in the previous playthrough and are now playing a Shadowdancer and I can't say the Shadowdancer is significantly better at lowish levels. More resources is always nice, but a Monk has a replenishable resource, so...

 

@Swift Flurry:

Swift Flurry just repeats the attack roll it did proc from (afaik). So for example a swing with Sun & Moon which has two attack rolls (one for Eothas's head, one for Ondra's head) has two chances to crit and proc Swift Flurry. But if the Eothas-head procs it it will only repeat that attack roll (which itself has the chance to crit and proc Swift Flurry again).

 

So no AoE or Full Attack shenanigans with Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming.

 

Both are better with a single class in my opinion because of Razor's Edge. You can also raise crit chances (and thus the chance to proc Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming) by using stuff like Grave Calling (Grave Bound) + Scordeo's Edge (Adaptive) and so on.

 

@Wounds/Enduring Dance:

I used a ranged Helwalker Monk with Enduring Dance and Mortification of the Soul. I had zero problems generating wounds in order to spam Whispers of the Wind (also because WotW takes some time to finish - casting time, the attack itself takes longer if you have many jumps - and recovery). Helwalkers start with more wounds into combat. It doesn't stay at +1, it scales with level (maybe Power Level).
Then Enduring Dance immediately gives you +1 wound and +3 ACC once you trigger it - and then adds +1 wound and +3 ACC every 3 secs.
So after 3 secs you are already at +2 W/+6 ACC, after 6 secs it's +3/+9 and finished ACC boost after 9 secs with +4 W/+12 ACC. After then it's +1 wound per 3 sec until you get hit a few times.

If you get pommeled too much to hold up Enduring Dance you will have wounds anyway. If you don't get attacked you can uphold Enduring Dance. If you want to speed up the process you can use Mortification of the Soul (it doesn't break Dance of Dance - no self damage without attack roll does).

If I had problems generating wounds I would pick Nalpasca, not Helwalker. Dance + drugs generate 1.5 Wounds per 3 secs on top of any damage which is very strong.

 

So... it is a no brainer in my opinion.

 

In general: IF I consider multiclassing a Monk it's often not with a single target class/build but with something that has AoE capablilities (caster mostly). The +10 INT is great as is Enduring Dace and Thunderous Blows.  

Edited February 9, 2019 by Boeroer

[djinnxy]

If you switch the streetfighter out with trickster you bring the damage closer to in line, but gain a tremendous amount of survivability as a full tank with mirror image. Then you need to consider resource regeneration vs. overall dps. Personally I feel it's the best option because you have more choices for resistant enemies to apply 2 afflictions before you immolate them. The downside is you are still relying on all mind afflictions for gaining the 2 afflictions in aoe. That becomes a problem vs. some that are mind affliction resistant/immune.

 

Still another alternative is using forbidden fist. If you have a wizard or druid spamming aoe affliction spells and gear up with some of the beast of winter affliction buff gear you'll gain wounds and healing besides. I'm currently considering a ranger build with forbidden fist. I'm wondering how it will apply the forbidden fist with jumping ranged weapons and driving flight. Add in multiple pull of eoras and it would be devastating as a fight opener. 

Edited February 9, 2019 by djinnxy

[Waski]

Vote for SC monk from me. Especially if You don't intend to solo. As Boeroer said multiclassing monk with martial class for DPS is the wrong way to do it. You can reach lv 19 and Whisper of the Wind before Hasongo, plenty of low hanging fruits in terms of xp. I did a checkup of records (for fun) before and after eotens guarding Street Sweeper (PotD), 3x WotW and 1x Stunning Surge (plus hits from rooting pain) resulted in 30 hits, 64 crits and almost 3k damage with a bit optimized build. If you want to tank you can WotW with large shield with modal on (WotW have bonus to acc from Ability and Power Levels ) or  for DW with that monk shield and Kapana Tanga and some high AR armor and Iron Wheel.

 

example of WotW  acc https://imgur.com/a/TMXtW3s

Edited February 9, 2019 by Waski

[Boeroer]

If you switch the streetfighter out with trickster you bring the damage closer to in line, but gain a tremendous amount of survivability as a full tank with mirror image. Then you need to consider resource regeneration vs. overall dps. Personally I feel it's the best option because you have more choices for resistant enemies to apply 2 afflictions before you immolate them. The downside is you are still relying on all mind afflictions for gaining the 2 afflictions in aoe. That becomes a problem vs. some that are mind affliction resistant/immune.

 

Still another alternative is using forbidden fist. If you have a wizard or druid spamming aoe affliction spells and gear up with some of the beast of winter affliction buff gear you'll gain wounds and healing besides. I'm currently considering a ranger build with forbidden fist. I'm wondering how it will apply the forbidden fist with jumping ranged weapons and driving flight. Add in multiple pull of eoras and it would be devastating as a fight opener.

You can't use Forbidden Fist with weapons and weapons abilities like Driving Flight. It has its own base damage (always crush no matter your weapon) and is always a melee attack. Afaik it only is influenced by Transcendent Suffering and Power Level (and universal buffs) but not weapon enchantments or proficiencies etc. I don't know if it even works with haymaker.

[djinnxy]

 

If you switch the streetfighter out with trickster you bring the damage closer to in line, but gain a tremendous amount of survivability as a full tank with mirror image. Then you need to consider resource regeneration vs. overall dps. Personally I feel it's the best option because you have more choices for resistant enemies to apply 2 afflictions before you immolate them. The downside is you are still relying on all mind afflictions for gaining the 2 afflictions in aoe. That becomes a problem vs. some that are mind affliction resistant/immune.

 

Still another alternative is using forbidden fist. If you have a wizard or druid spamming aoe affliction spells and gear up with some of the beast of winter affliction buff gear you'll gain wounds and healing besides. I'm currently considering a ranger build with forbidden fist. I'm wondering how it will apply the forbidden fist with jumping ranged weapons and driving flight. Add in multiple pull of eoras and it would be devastating as a fight opener.

You can't use Forbidden Fist with weapons and weapons abilities like Driving Flight. It has its own base damage (always crush no matter your weapon) and is always a melee attack. Afaik it only is influenced by Transcendent Suffering and Power Level (and universal buffs) but not weapon enchantments or proficiencies etc. I don't know if it even works with haymaker.

 

 

I discovered that several hours ago. It kinda stinks as an ability. In a way it's nice because it's an ultra rare source of enfeeble. In another way it pigeon holes you into being the suckiest possible monk. I'm trying it right now with xoti's lantern and shotgun. I'm going to try fist/shotgun. I multiclassed it with beckoner to get lots of weak summons to blow up for resources from xoti's lantern. The affliction from shotgun I can get to time out to get 1 wound per round. It's pretty cheesy at low level. I'll stick with it a bit. Maybe console one in at higher to save some time testing.

[Boeroer]

I tried to build a Forbidden Fist/Druid and run through my own Tanglefoot. It works somehow but is still fiddly and meh. THe only thing that works allright atm. is building a Sage "tank" and step into your own Pull of Eora all the time. That gives you plenty of wounds. Don't know exactly on what to spend them though... Don't want to self dmaage myself to death with Forbidden Fists and also I get pulled around a bit often...

 

It also works if you go with 1 INT and maxed RES and use Forbidden Fist all the time. Buffs don't work that well and the Enfeebling also only stays for a short time but at least you don't kill yourself while doing some damage and build wounds from short curses (2.5 secs). 

 

All in all it's screwed up still.

[djinnxy]

The sage tank is the only way I can see this working in solo. You'd need to take all of the low level aoe vs. all affliction spells and pull of eora. I'd stick with moderate or better int and max resolve. Take any gear that reduces affliction time and stacks resolve. You'd need to max perception to hit yourself. Maybe lower might to keep from damaging yourself too much. There's some ok-ish gear from beast of winter for afflictions. I'm not sure how that would work to alleviate the symptoms of a subpar build?? In a party situation I'd take it solo (or maybe forbidden fist/zerker?). I'll console it in later maybe for testing. I can't see it being an easy class to choose. 

 

A nice fix for it would be to make losing afflictions raise con instead of direct heal and raise the upper limit for con stacking to 45 for the class. Along with iron wheel I can see it being a completely viable class then. Edit: this could give you 700+ hp to work with if my math is correct.

Edited February 10, 2019 by djinnxy

[Boeroer]

Just keep in mind that attributes are capped at 35.

[djinnxy]

Just keep in mind that attributes are capped at 35.

Yep. That's why it would hinge on raising the cap for the ability. Otherwise meh. Just raise the amount healed by like triple.