SPOILERS About the end

[Fredward]

So predating the Engwithans we have Eora, adra (right?) and a natural soul cycle. Souls are energy that when embodied can have thoughts/experiences/personalities etc and these can either strengthen the soul or degrade it. In this sense it's a nice, healthy self-contained system into recycling. An implication here is that it really is self-contained, the energy/souls on Eora is what it's got, there isn't someone or something frequently creating it out of nothing and injecting it into the system. The Engwithans got a solid handle on how stuff works and got really bummed about there not being a great architect or engineer or own personal god to supply them a raison d'etre, finding a natural cycle to be too impersonal, too incidental of an explanation they decided that the best way to fix this existential angst is "Us! But MOAR!" And so the gods. Natural, working system vs ravenous overexploitation and the dangers thereof in the name of some abstract human need recurs elsewhere and invites some obvious parallels. 

 

SSS show what the Wheel is to the gods now, I think. Galawain is your crazy survivalist uncle living in a shack in the woods but beneath the rickety shack he has a blast proof bunker with a generator. Kazuwari is the whole reincarnation cycle writ small, you can even call him out on this that he cycles the souls in Kazuwari and the struggles strengthen them meaning they get to be better snacks for him. You can eat more from a fat soul than a weak one and still have it be functional for recycling. And he'll even mention the Watcher would make a good snack based off what their soul has been through. It's easy to upscale this to the whole system, right? He called my Watcher a parasite for eating the souls when the opportunity arose and that's particularly funny since the gods so eloquently display that the only difference between a parasite and the gods is scale. We already know the gods have redundancies in the form of "In case of emergency break Godlike" but Galawain was being extra prepped which explains why he gets so very pissy despite being all about that seeking slaying and surviving supposedly. One interesting thing to consider is whether the natural cycle would have resulted in the continuity/cohesiveness of a soul through time as the current system has or whether that's a byproduct of the gods prepping the dinner table.

 

All of the gods are implicated passively in this out of necessity and most are active in this system which's only goal now is self-perpetuation. Berath's insistence on everything having an end is necessary because otherwise the gods can't eat, when Magran or Galawain throw down a challenge it's because either you die and they get an early lunch or you become more tasty later, when Wael obscures he ensures the venality of the system isn't common knowledge, when Hylea is all "OOOoooohhh humans cute!" she helps them thrive and by thriving they make for a better crop. Since they really do seem to just be upscaled humans I have zero doubt that they're not this honest with themselves, possibly they can't be this honest with themselves, and they've constructed a bunch of narratives about how they're actually helping, why what they're doing is necessary and actually good and the system they benefit from is what's best for everyone and not just fundamentally and inescapably self-serving. This may or may not also double for social commentary wrt certain systems.

[Khagmas]

Metaphysics will destroy you, Obsidians.

The next time you decide to write an interesting story, think first of all about of player's Role-Play, not about metaphysical garbage. GL.


 

[Wormerine]

@Fredward when you put it like that... Eothas smashing the wheel and killing bunch of stuff in the process does seem like a noble thing to do... he doesn’t really get to benefit from it at all.

[InsaneCommander]

So predating the Engwithans we have Eora, adra (right?) and a natural soul cycle. Souls are energy that when embodied can have thoughts/experiences/personalities etc and these can either strengthen the soul or degrade it. In this sense it's a nice, healthy self-contained system into recycling. An implication here is that it really is self-contained, the energy/souls on Eora is what it's got, there isn't someone or something frequently creating it out of nothing and injecting it into the system.

 

Forgotten Sanctum spoilers:

 

 

 

Although they don't behave as normal essence, the entities in the star rock could be seem as a means to inject more energy/souls into the system. Unless they never mix with the locals.

 

 

[house2fly]

Metaphysics will destroy you, Obsidians.

 

The next time you decide to write an interesting story, think first of all about of player's Role-Play, not about metaphysical garbage. GL.

 

 

 

tf you even talking about

[house2fly]

This game about pirates and wizards where you help feed the lower classes and battle fire vikings has too much metaphysics in it.

[Khagmas]

This game about pirates and wizards where you help feed the lower classes and battle fire vikings has too much metaphysics in it.

Yeah? I think that game mainly about the "Builders of Engwithans" who became Gods and about their descendants over whom they have power. And everything revolves around this ugly metaphysical main idea. There is no real sense of gravitas or choice, and for the most part side quests (stories about these descendants and their life in Eora without metaphysical intervention of Gods? Yeah?) were far more varied than the main questline.

 

Yes, choise - is nothing. Wheel will be Break.

 

What will it mean? - Is Nothing. No matter how everything is significant for life in Eora - everything will be reduced to one version, as is the case with the ending of the first game and the beginning of the adventure in Deadfire.

 

Still not sure that everything comes down to metaphysics?

 

Waidwen's Legacy, Leaden Key, Saint's War, All 3 DLCs of Deadfire with a metaphysical intervention of Gods and main questline with 'Hunt on Eothas'? White March part 2?

 

Want to just 'clean' the dungeons? Then be prepared for the fact that you will soon learn about a new metaphysic problem. And the more globally you face the task, the greater the chance that your choice means nothing.

 

There is no reason to guess what will happen and how it will affect. 'The Only Metahysical Decision' will be the answer to all our questions.

 

Isn't it great that we really don't have choise in the game with the choice?

Edited January 10, 2019 by Khagmas

[house2fly]

I guess I'm just not too clear on how not being able to prevent Eothas breaking the Wheel is particularly relevant to the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between possibility and actuality.

[Uburian]

There is something which I have been curious about, but it is something that hasn't been explained fully as far as I know - there seem to be soul degradation in process - they split into pieces and eventually wear out into nothingness (Rymgrand's entrophy). It doesn't seem like new souls are being born. Does life in Eora run on a finite resource? Rymgrand's belief would suggest that.  If yes the God's seem like a pretty big waste of souls, considering how many they require to live. 

 

From PoE2's story i got the impression that the degradation was caused by the gods syphoning small chunks of essence from reincarnating souls (thus fracturing the souls) instead of being a natural occurrence, or perhaps it was already a part of the natural reincarnation cycle and the creation of the Wheel worsened it. In any case, we will probably not now for sure until PoE3 is released.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Uburian

[Khagmas]

I guess I'm just not too clear on how not being able to prevent Eothas breaking the Wheel is particularly relevant to the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between possibility and actuality.

lolwhat? Speaking about of metaphysics, I mean its definition from the game: "A young field of knowledge, Metaphysics deals with animancy, adra, the Wheel, the In-Between, the Beyond, and all mysteries of the soul."

 

The Gods and this Metaphysics too often began appear in the plot in order to inflate the importance of everything and everyone. Most of these stories are actually empty and do not carry any meaning = real influence on the game world.

 

Pillars of Eternity is good without it. And all this pouting importance about the gods only harms the universe.

 

It is better go through the quests about pirate's battles, castle sieges, sweeps dungeon and other local conflicts - where decisions will lead to consequences.

 

It is better to do something more simple and understandable, where the player will be pleased that the game world has begun to change in proportion to the importance of the completed tasks.

 

In short, down with the water in the stories.

 

Down with the Wheel! About these Gods need to forget. They cannot be made so involved in everything. This game should not be about them, but about decisions and their consequences for the main character and maybe for some local part of the Eora-world?

 

Or not?

Edited January 10, 2019 by Khagmas

[Wormerine]

The Gods and this Metaphysics too often began appear in the plot in order to inflate the importance of everything and everyone. Most of these stories are actually empty and do not carry any meaning = real influence on the game world.

Pillars of Eternity is good without it. And all this pouting importance about the gods only harms the universe.

On some basic level I somewhat agree with you - I don’t think Deadfire handled grand universe changing story well. More time is given to a conflict in the Deadfire - it’s more fleshed out, characters in game care more about it. The destruction of the wheel is somewhat damaging as it makes the central conflict of the game somewhat irrelevant. Now, what I just say is not quite true - conflict in the Deadfire ties to ways you can influence Eothas. But I don’t think it works as well as it could/should have.

 

I disagree strongly that PoE should drop the grand ideas and be just a fantasy adventure. PoE1 showed what great universe it can be. Even though it’s heavily flawed I find Deadfire far more interesting than most IE of old (except Planescape) or something fun but incoherent like Divinities. It might be a matter of taste, but if anything I wish for any future PoEs (if they happen) to explore its ideas further. I think that not being able to stop Eothas is not an issue - not being given enough space to process, understand and react to it (and have the world react to it) is. PoE companions and world well resonated with the reveal. Deadfire god content feels a bit too much like lore, and not enough like a story.

[uuuhhii]

 

There is something which I have been curious about, but it is something that hasn't been explained fully as far as I know - there seem to be soul degradation in process - they split into pieces and eventually wear out into nothingness (Rymgrand's entrophy). It doesn't seem like new souls are being born. Does life in Eora run on a finite resource? Rymgrand's belief would suggest that.  If yes the God's seem like a pretty big waste of souls, considering how many they require to live. 

 

From PoE2's story i got the impression that the degradation was caused by the gods syphoning small chunks of essence from reincarnating souls (thus fracturing the souls) instead of being a natural occurrence, or perhaps it was already a part of the natural reincarnation cycle and the creation of the Wheel worsened it. In any case, we will probably not now for sure until PoE3 is released.

 

soul break down was definitely a thing before the gods

the place rymrgand rule now existed before rymrgand

it was likely the inspiration of wtw religion and rymrgand in the first place

and thaos did mention soul will become dust eventually

if it was caused by existence of gods it was unlikely he will mention it

and magic exist before gods too

so there are soul fragment everywhere before gods

[Khagmas]

I disagree strongly that PoE should drop the grand ideas and be just a fantasy adventure. PoE1 showed what great universe it can be. Even though it’s heavily flawed I find Deadfire far more interesting than most IE of old (except Planescape) or something fun but incoherent like Divinities. It might be a matter of taste, but if anything I wish for any future PoEs (if they happen) to explore its ideas further. I think that not being able to stop Eothas is not an issue - not being given enough space to process, understand and react to it (and have the world react to it) is. PoE companions and world well resonated with the reveal. Deadfire god content feels a bit too much like lore, and not enough like a story.

 

That is what I meant, in fact, because the main plot and everything else should not revolve around this Gods - because they stories is not the main story, it is only knowledge about the world of Eora.

 

I hope that without The Wheel they will have to go into the background and they will not get into the Eora's life without serious necessary.

 

Where is Naasitaq? Is it not on the Archipelago? Instead of the next quest about the Gods could tell us about the life of this region. That's the problem.

 

Naasitaq is a remote southern island nation, located in the Deadfire Archipelago. Many boreal dwarves and aumaua share the rocky tundra and snow-covered forests with far-roaming caravan elves who drift near the shoreline. Naasitaq is the biggest and most stable nation around. Various nations and empires fight over the islands, to the east of which are sea monsters that invariably annihilate any ships that attempt to go exploring (many of them dwarven).

 

Where is it in game?

 

The gods have to go into the background, because of this, there is small place in the story for really important things. That is why Metaphysics in this game should sink into oblivion.

 

Metaphysics destroys resources for more mundane and interesting stories, inflates empty stories about gods to the Epic level, they really mean nothing. The foundation of these stories is a Engwithans lie, it's no more does not cause awe.

 

Need make Pillars of Eternity Great Again!

[uuuhhii]

 

I disagree strongly that PoE should drop the grand ideas and be just a fantasy adventure. PoE1 showed what great universe it can be. Even though it’s heavily flawed I find Deadfire far more interesting than most IE of old (except Planescape) or something fun but incoherent like Divinities. It might be a matter of taste, but if anything I wish for any future PoEs (if they happen) to explore its ideas further. I think that not being able to stop Eothas is not an issue - not being given enough space to process, understand and react to it (and have the world react to it) is. PoE companions and world well resonated with the reveal. Deadfire god content feels a bit too much like lore, and not enough like a story.

 

That is what I meant, in fact, because the main plot and everything else should not revolve around this Gods - because they stories is not the main story, it is only knowledge about the world of Eora.

 

I hope that without The Wheel they will have to go into the background and they will not get into the Eora's life without serious necessary.

 

Where is Naasitaq? Is it not on the Archipelago? Instead of the next quest about the Gods could tell us about the life of this region. That's the problem.

 

Naasitaq is a remote southern island nation, located in the Deadfire Archipelago. Many boreal dwarves and aumaua share the rocky tundra and snow-covered forests with far-roaming caravan elves who drift near the shoreline. Naasitaq is the biggest and most stable nation around. Various nations and empires fight over the islands, to the east of which are sea monsters that invariably annihilate any ships that attempt to go exploring (many of them dwarven).

 

Where is it in game?

 

The gods have to go into the background, because of this, there is small place in the story for really important things. That is why Metaphysics in this game should sink into oblivion.

 

Metaphysics destroys resources for more mundane and interesting stories, inflates empty stories about gods to the Epic level, they really mean nothing. The foundation of these stories is a Engwithans lie, it's no more does not cause awe.

 

Need make Pillars of Eternity Great Again!

 

the problem is too many players expect high stake for main story

most commonly save the world from total destruction

poe1 tried relatively low stake with bleak and sad environment and atmosphere

deadfire tried to find a better way to deal with the problem by showing gods arguing and make main character not much of a chosen one

but it still suffer from common problem of similar setting

a crisis threaten to destroy the world but player can still waste month to complete all the side stuff

a ending that players choice will change the world forever but still have to be compatible with whatever the sequel will made up

similar difficulties plague more then one series of rpg

Edited January 11, 2019 by uuuhhii

[Khagmas]

similar difficulties plague more then one series of rpg

 

Totally agree! High stakes = epic fails.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

I think that not being able to stop Eothas is not an issue - not being given enough space to process, understand and react to it (and have the world react to it) is.

 

coping with inevitability deffo a theme which could have reaped some serious rewards. i appreciate you had the apocalyptic ranting of xoti and the dawnstars, but they werent always the easiest folk to take seriously.

 

theres one conversation with maia which really stayed with me - the one where she compares knowing eothas' is gonna succeed to knowing one of her marks is somehow destined to die. some of paul kirschs best work there imo, sold well by marisha ray. perhaps theme couldve permeated more of the deadfire.

 

potential drawback is that such fatalism has tendency to alienate non-trivial portion of audience. peeps like to feel their actions matter when they play games. 

 

tho i wouldve been up for a bit more widespread hopelessness. not all of us cure fans grow out of that phase.

 

notion of random **** going on in shadow of apocalypse - fiddling while rome burns, why worry about what u cant change etc - not necessarily a bad one. have worked at the death of enough contracts, and there more than enough folk who repeat the same old conflicts despite obsolescence of such. dunno how ud convey such a theme in rpg without making ur mc cassandra and engendering frustration with 90% of npcs tho. might not be fun experience.

 

dont have biggest dog in fight regarding scale of conflict. have preference for low level d&d and campaigns of that flavour, but as we now in 3rd act of series which has set out stall by fking about with gods and souls, it would feel a bit odd to take foot off pedal now.

 

the problem is too many players expect high stake for main story

most commonly save the world from total destruction

poe1 tried relatively low stake with bleak and sad environment and atmosphere

deadfire tried to find a better way to deal with the problem by showing gods arguing and make main character not much of a chosen one

but it still suffer from common problem of similar setting

a crisis threaten to destroy the world but player can still waste month to complete all the side stuff

a ending that players choice will change the world forever but still have to be compatible with whatever the sequel will made up

similar difficulties plague more then one series of rpg

 

ye, crpg genre has to pay countless debts now - esp high fantasy settings. ambitions and expectations running wild, and even when theyre met, is no guarantee of good work or money in the bank. makes me glad to have no great ambition beyond talking rubbish, having a roof over my head, and dying in a bed rather than a car crash.

[house2fly]

As far as meaning, the gods have always been analogous to real-world societal structures and the powerful in general. In this context, the fact that Woedica(the villain of the first game) is palling around with the other gods like she's one of the gang is a statement about the nature of the elite. The gods' petty squabbling and frequent asking of the Watcher's opinion on matters is a reminder that for all their grandeur they are still only human- not primal and unknowable, therefore not unchangeable or (possibly) undefeatable. You can see where the analogy goes from here, with the Wheel being the way the gods maintain their power by literally feeding on the common people, and the necessity of a whole new system being built rather than simply casting them down, but basically it's the same ideas as the faction quests (what kind of society should we have?) presented as high fantasy. I'm not sure what inherent worth Naasitaq has as a concept that means it would have been prima facie more meaningful than the main quest we have

[Tagaziel]

potential drawback is that such fatalism has tendency to alienate non-trivial portion of audience. peeps like to feel their actions matter when they play games.

I actually liked the fact that your actions don't matter to Eothas. He's a natural disaster, an act of god. Your actions don't matter in the face of Eothas any more than they do in the face of an earthquake or a tsunami.

 

He just happens.

[Cartoons Plural]

 

potential drawback is that such fatalism has tendency to alienate non-trivial portion of audience. peeps like to feel their actions matter when they play games.

I actually liked the fact that your actions don't matter to Eothas. He's a natural disaster, an act of god. Your actions don't matter in the face of Eothas any more than they do in the face of an earthquake or a tsunami.

 

He just happens.

 

 

yeah seems like there's this idea that there's a stone tablet inscribed with rules about how your player character has to be able to have agency over the entire game-world is honestly just trying to limit potential artistic statements with arbitrary market rules. probably some kind of rigid game design academia leaking out into folk wisdom

 

i think the inevitability and unstoppable nature of eothas and the disruptive and permanent change he brings is at least partly a metaphor for climate change

Edited January 19, 2019 by Cartoons Plural