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Dual Wielding Ranged & Melee


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#1
Ælfwine

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If I have a pistol in one hand and an axe in the other will the character ever move into melee range to hit with the axe or just remain in place firing the pistol? Is there a script command for this to make them move into melee?



#2
Boeroer

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With auto-attacks the char will stay at range and only fire with the pistol. I can't remember what happens if you command a Full Attack - maybe it deopends which weapon is in your main hand.

 

On the other hand when you are in melee range and use a Full Attack you will swing and fire.

 

I didn't do a lot of testing with those setups lately - because it basically sucks in terms of (somewhat convenient) playability. ;) 



#3
msyoung

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I have no empirical evidence to support this, it is purely conjecture. But the weapon you are carrying as your main weapon could be your primary attack weapon, rather than your offhand weapon. What happens if you carry your axe as the main weapon?



#4
Ælfwine

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I'll have to confirm this again, but it looks like if I put the axe as the main weapon he will melee with just that weapon and not use the offhand ranged weapon at all. I'm not familiar with what this 'full attack' is or how to execute it.



#5
Boeroer

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That's abilities like Barbaric Blow, Crippling Strike, Flames of Devotion and so on. Those will execute an attack with both weapons (skipping recovery of the main hand) if you use them. With those the gun in your offhand will be used even if you are in melee.

Edited by Boeroer, 27 November 2018 - 10:38 AM.


#6
thelee

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Additional wrinkle for those curious, some melee abilities that do primary attacks will only function if your melee weapon is in your main hand. If you have it in your off hand, the ability just won't be usable (it doesn't check your offhand and only sees a ranged weapon in your main hand).

 

In addition, you only get engagement if you have a melee weapon in your main hand. Again, even though you may still have a melee weapon in your off hand, the game only checks your main hand for a melee weapon to let you use any engagement.

 

Basically you should almost always put the melee weapon in your main hand.



#7
thelee

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With auto-attacks the char will stay at range and only fire with the pistol. I can't remember what happens if you command a Full Attack - maybe it deopends which weapon is in your main hand.

 

On the other hand when you are in melee range and use a Full Attack you will swing and fire.

 

I didn't do a lot of testing with those setups lately - because it basically sucks in terms of (somewhat convenient) playability. ;)

 

there's no rule saying you have to use the ranged weapon.

 

if you a super good one handed weapon, it is optimal in fact to equip a ranged weapon in your off hand and just never get out of melee range. that way you are attacking at dual-wielding speeds with the same very good one handed weapon, instead of alternating between that and something less good for you.

 

this applies mostly to fighters and monks who for some reason have lots of primary attack martials; and casters who don't have martial abilities to worry about but may still want to melee decently.


Edited by thelee, 27 November 2018 - 04:27 PM.


#8
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Maybe. But then you have to manually maneuver your char into melee range. Because if you don't do that he will only use the ranged weapon/will not move to engage. And that's the annoying part for me. Same thing when I summon Minor Blights and use it with an offhand dagger: as soon as enemies engage me I will not be able to use the Blights on them anymore. Meh...

#9
MaxQuest

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If I have a scepter in one hand and an stiletto in the other will the character ever move into melee range to hit with the stiletto or just remain in place firing the scepter?

I was testing a similar thing, but with scepter and stiletto. I guess there should be no difference from pistol plus axe.
So, these were the results:

v1. You have scepter in main-hand and stiletto in off-hand:

- if you auto-attack from range: the character will stay in place and only use scepter
- if you auto-attack from melee: the character will stay in place and only use stiletto

- if you use primary-attack from range: the character will stay in place and only use scepter (his main-hand)
- if you use primary-attack from melee: the character will stay in place and only use scepter (his main-hand)

- if you use full-attack from range: the character will stay in place and only use scepter
- if you use full-attack from melee: the character will stay in place and only use stiletto

Note: if you use any full or primary attack that is melee-only, then your character will first run in melee range.

v2. You have stiletto in main-hand and scepter in off-hand:

- if you auto-attack from range: the character will stay in place and only use scepter
- if you auto-attack from melee: the character will stay in place and only use stiletto

- if you use primary-attack from range: the character will run in melee and will only use stiletto (his main-hand)
- if you use primary-attack from melee: the character will stay in place and only use stiletto (his main-hand)

- if you use full-attack from range: the character will stay in place and only use scepter
- if you use full-attack from melee: the character will stay in place and only use stiletto


P.S. Do note that having two weapons (even if one is melee and another one ranged) is considered as dual-wielding. So instead of lets say dual-wielding a good wand and a crappy wand, you could wield only the good wand and a dagger or bashing-shield in offhand. That is if you don't have full-attacks (because otherwise you'd be losing some damage potential).
A special mention goes to Tuotilo's Palm shield for monk builds that auto-attack from range and emphasis on auto and primary attacking (since this way you can benefit from dw, dw-style, 1h+shield style, shield deflection bonus, and balanced shield enchant: +1 def and +1 reflex per wound)
 

Is there a script command for this to make them move into melee?

Am not aware of such command.

What is the behavior you want to achieve?

Edited by MaxQuest, 29 November 2018 - 12:41 AM.

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#10
Boeroer

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If it's a full attack that works with melee and ranged weapons then the char will execute the full attack at melee range with both weapons. At least last time I tried. Might have changed.

#11
MaxQuest

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^ Tested today: Penetrating Strike (which is not limited to melee range) was only using stiletto when in melee range, and scepter was ignored.
But I'll double check when will have time. And perhaps will check with firearms too.

#12
Ælfwine

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If I have a scepter in one hand and an stiletto in the other will the character ever move into melee range to hit with the stiletto or just remain in place firing the scepter?


Is there a script command for this to make them move into melee?

Am not aware of such command.

What is the behavior you want to achieve?

 

 

Is there a script command for this to make them move into melee?

Am not aware of such command.

What is the behavior you want to achieve?

 

If there's a melee weapon in either hand I want the character to close to melee range.

 

What's the difference between an auto-attack and a primary attack?

Does Accuracy/Damage differ based on whether you have the weapon in a main hand or an offhand?

 



#13
thelee

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What's the difference between an auto-attack and a primary attack?


A "primary attack" is what some martial abilities do (e.g. Fighter's Knock Down) versus some other martial abilities that do "Full attack" (e.g. Rogue Crippling Strike). An auto-attack is just a normal attack done outside of an actual ability.

Edited by thelee, 28 November 2018 - 09:36 AM.


#14
Boeroer

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Does Accuracy/Damage differ based on whether you have the weapon in a main hand or an offhand?


Nope
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#15
Frak

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If there's a melee weapon in either hand I want the character to close to melee range.

 

 

 

Serafen is a good example as he is a dual-wilder that comes with a mortar and an axe as default weapons.

 

You always "lose" an attack with him. He tends to stay at range and use the mortar unless you move him into melee, wherupon he forgets the mortar and likes to use the axe. Stupid orlan. That's what happens when you dye your fur with toxic chemicals.



#16
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Yeah, when you're not the "real" blue orlan. Down with those impostors!



#17
MaxQuest

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If it's a full attack that works with melee and ranged weapons then the char will execute the full attack at melee range with both weapons. At least last time I tried. Might have changed.

So, I have checked this right now, and when in melee range Flames of Devotion only deal damage with melee weapon.
I've tested with:
- scepter [mh], stiletto [oh]
- stiletto [mh], scepter [oh]
- pistol [mh], battle axe [oh]
- battle axe [mh], pistol [oh]
And all give the same result.


Btw, I was testing yesterday on v3.1.0, and today have updated to v3.1.1.0023 and retested again.
All tests still hold, but v3.1.1 has fixed two related bugs:

in v3.1.0:
b1. if you dual-wield ranged and melee weapons, lets say scepter + stiletto and issue run_to_target->attack queue command (i.e. right click on enemy, shift + left click in quick succession): the character would run into melee, and surprise! would be auto-attacking with ranged weapon. And without this queue, he would be auto-attacking with melee weapon (as expected).
b2. if you have [1h-firearm MH] and [1h-melee OH] (lets say pistol + battle axe), AI turned off, and issue run_to_target->attack queue command : the character would run into melee, and would start auto-attacking with firearm without recovery/reload at all.

in v3.1.1.0023:
b1. he will run into melee, and will be auto-attacking with melee weapon only. (in both cases)
b2. he will run into melee, and will be auto-attacking with melee weapon only. (and will be going through recovery phase as expected)
 
So there is that.
 

If there's a melee weapon in either hand I want the character to close to melee range.

There is no related checkbox or setting.
But you can achieve this indirectly:
v1. Start combat with melee-only primary attack (like Knockdown). This will force your character to run into melee range. You can also use melee-only Full Attack - but you will lose some damage, since ranged weapon won't be used in melee range.
v2. Issue run_to_target->attack queue command. Right click on enemy -> shift left click on same enemy. The character will run towards that target and will start auto-attacking it in melee range, with melee weapon.
 

What's the difference between an auto-attack and a primary attack?

Auto-attack (also called as 'normal' attack) - is a simple non-ability attack with your weapon. It has no cost. And if you dual-wield, the attacks are alternated:
- MH_attack->MH_recovery->OH_attack->OH_recovery->repeat.

Primary attack - is an ability attack (e.g: Knockdown, Concussive Shot) that uses your main_hand weapon only, and disregards current hand order.
 

Does Accuracy/Damage differ based on whether you have the weapon in a main hand or an offhand?

No. Accuracy and damage of attack are not affected by having the weapon in main or off hand. Unlike in NWN2 there is no penalty for attacking from offhand.

But... it is still important to consider which weapon to put in which hand for primary and full attacks.
Primary attack will use only main hand. So if you want more damage, you might want to put slower damage there. And if all you want is to spam knockdowns with a 2-MIG fighter, than you'd better put a dagger or rapier, because you'll have a shorter recovery, plus these weapon types have bonus accuracy.

As for full attacks: if your weapons are both melee, or are both ranged, recovery of the main hand will be waved.
That's why Flames of Devotions with [Battle Axe in MH + Dagger in OH] will have higher dps than [Dagger in MH + Battle Axe in OH]; especially if you turn the axe modal on.

Edited by MaxQuest, 29 November 2018 - 01:22 AM.

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#18
Boeroer

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I did execute HoF and it used melee weapon and gun. But that was some time ago and it might well be that

 

a) this got altered

or

b) HoF is special since it's not the usual Full Attack animation and all

 

I think I also had the same behavior with Flagellant's Path and Whispers of the Wind. Maybe I'll test that today when I have some minutes free time. My days are horribly jam-packed atm. :(


Edited by Boeroer, 29 November 2018 - 02:48 AM.


#19
MaxQuest

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a) this got altered
or
b) HoF is special since it's not the usual Full Attack animation and all

It's either b or both :)

Heart of Fury is very special in this regard)

#20
Frak

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Yeah, when you're not the "real" blue orlan. Down with those impostors!

 

Serafen is totally high on Murkberries. It explains everything.






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