Favorite Cipher Builds?

[Haplok]

Yeah, I was definitely going to go Soulblade if I went Mindstalker. Also, thanks for the mod. Once the patch drops, I'll check it out. I wonder if it'd break the game too much to use it with a Cipher multiclass as well? 

 

That does adjust the rankings somewhat. Now, I'd really want to try a pure Cipher (Using your mod) or a Mindstalker before a Transcendent or a Witch. I think I'll run a few tests with the Mindstalker after work tomorrow and see how well the Soulblade plays - but Guile regen is going to be a pain. Unless someone's made a mod that gives Rogues better resource management. 

 

For a Mindstalker I recommend a dual-wielding Trickster/Soulblade. Trickster is durable enough to offtank, can even get some ripostes. Duals will make him fast enough. With the nerf to dual Full-Attacks, SA might actually do better damage then Rogue attacks (which on the other hand should do a nice job charging SA). With a Trickster you actually mostly spend Guile on doing damage (apart from a few cheap self-buffs), which is cool.

 

Sadly rogues are missing speed boosts, which are IMO necessary to reasonably use two-handers.

[Ophiuchus]

Ghost Heart Seer has been my favorite build since beta: it's got nice accuracy (Marksman plus Marked for The Hunt plus Borrowed Instinct is super spicy) and CC (Secret Horrors plus your Deceptions of choice), and the pet can be used as a good distraction or conduit for stuff like Soul Shock, Ectopsychic Echo, and Amplified Wave. Driving Flight works well with any ranged weapon and is great with multi-hit or +bounce weapons like Frostseeker or Watershaper's Focus; running out of Focus is rarely an issue for Seer. The combo gets a lot of dialogue options, too.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ophiuchus

[Haplok]

Hm, I agree it's pretty nice. But I doubt it will eliminate singular targets as fast as a Rogue. Would be nice with Disintegrate later on, though.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

Yeah, I was definitely going to go Soulblade if I went Mindstalker. Also, thanks for the mod. Once the patch drops, I'll check it out. I wonder if it'd break the game too much to use it with a Cipher multiclass as well? 

 

That does adjust the rankings somewhat. Now, I'd really want to try a pure Cipher (Using your mod) or a Mindstalker before a Transcendent or a Witch. I think I'll run a few tests with the Mindstalker after work tomorrow and see how well the Soulblade plays - but Guile regen is going to be a pain. Unless someone's made a mod that gives Rogues better resource management. 

 

For a Mindstalker I recommend a dual-wielding Trickster/Soulblade. Trickster is durable enough to offtank, can even get some ripostes. Duals will make him fast enough. With the nerf to dual Full-Attacks, SA might actually do better damage then Rogue attacks (which on the other hand should do a nice job charging SA). With a Trickster you actually mostly spend Guile on doing damage (apart from a few cheap self-buffs), which is cool.

 

Sadly rogues are missing speed boosts, which are IMO necessary to reasonably use two-handers.

 

 

I'll go ahead and try Trickster/Soul Blade when I get back from work. I think that could be a bit of fun, especially since the Trickster buff (Honestly, it's now the Rogue class that has the most goodies attached to it, which I like). I've also heard the nerf to dual wield isn't 'too' bad when you take all of Rogue's passive damage boosts into account? 

[Haplok]

It's not like the Rogue will not deal damage now. But the loss in damage output for dual-wielding will be noticeable. On the bright side, it will make you appreciate Soul Annihilation that much more (which was previously a bit overshadowed by Rogue abilities).

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

It's not like the Rogue will not deal damage now. But the loss in damage output for dual-wielding will be noticeable. On the bright side, it will make you appreciate Soul Annihilation that much more (which was previously a bit overshadowed by Rogue abilities).

 

That's cool! Wondering what weapons I should use with this... Maybe Squid's Grasp and Rusts' Poignard? And then have a set in the OH for dealing with Crush/Slash. And then Gipon Prudensco for Engagement immunity, or DoC BP for action speed. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Cyrus_Blackfeather

[Haplok]

Squid's Grasp is a rapier. I think I'd want something with a bit higher damage in main hand (since when spamming full attacks you ignore main hand recovery). Rapier would work offhand. Or Rust's, sure. Or you can go for the feels and do a rapier/stiletto combo, like you suggest. But you'll deal a little less damage.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Squid's Grasp is a rapier. I think I'd want something with a bit higher damage in main hand (since when spamming full attacks you ignore main hand recovery). Rapier would work offhand. Or Rust's, sure. Or you can go for the feels and do a rapier/stiletto combo, like you suggest. But you'll deal a little less damage.

 

What'd you recommend for MH then? Modwyr? 

[Haplok]

Eh, your choice of flavor. Modwyr is kinda cool. But probably other weapons, such as Grave Calling, maybe Magran's Favor or Scordeo's Edge, are even better. Modwyr is certainly very good vs Fampyrs due to Intellect immunity. You can use different weapons and see what you like.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Eh, your choice of flavor. Modwyr is kinda cool. But probably other weapons, such as Grave Calling, maybe Magran's Favor or Scordeo's Edge, are even better. Modwyr is certainly very good vs Fampyrs due to Intellect immunity. You can use different weapons and see what you like.

 

Hmm. I'll use Grave Calling. Scordeo's Edge I can't get since this is planned to be a pro-Vallian character. Though I suppose I could go pro-Principi too.

[mant2si]

So you decided to go with soul-blade and skip such great tools as Brilliant Inspiration, 500DM Disintegration and of-course my favorite Amplified Wave and change all that things on single melee ability 

Do you know that monk summons copy all your equipment and for example if you equip Whitewitch Mask, they will start spam free terrify AOE on < 50% HP or Effigy's Husk will cast 60 - 80 AOE raw DM on summon die

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

So you decided to go with soul-blade and skip such great tools as Brilliant Inspiration, 500DM Disintegration and of-course my favorite Amplified Wave and change all that things on single melee ability 

 

Do you know that monk summons copy all your equipment and for example if you equip Whitewitch Mask, they will start spam free terrify AOE on < 50% HP or Effigy's Husk will cast 60 - 80 AOE raw DM on summon die

 

I didn't say that. I'm just testing both. 

[Metaturtle]

So you decided to go with soul-blade and skip such great tools as Brilliant Inspiration, 500DM Disintegration and of-course my favorite Amplified Wave and change all that things on single melee ability

 

Do you know that monk summons copy all your equipment and for example if you equip Whitewitch Mask, they will start spam free terrify AOE on < 50% HP or Effigy's Husk will cast 60 - 80 AOE raw DM on summon die

Huh, I've never had my monk summons use the death aoe ever when wearing effigy's husk. I need to test that again, something must have changed. :0

 

I dont see the problem with brilliance inspiration since you can cast it anytime without having to stagger it by going into ascendant mode. It's not like you suddenly become an SA devotee.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

So you decided to go with soul-blade and skip such great tools as Brilliant Inspiration, 500DM Disintegration and of-course my favorite Amplified Wave and change all that things on single melee ability

 

Do you know that monk summons copy all your equipment and for example if you equip Whitewitch Mask, they will start spam free terrify AOE on < 50% HP or Effigy's Husk will cast 60 - 80 AOE raw DM on summon die

Huh, I've never had my monk summons use the death aoe ever when wearing effigy's husk. I need to test that again, something must have changed. :0

 

I dont see the problem with brilliance inspiration since you can cast it anytime without having to stagger it by going into ascendant mode. It's not like you suddenly become an SA devotee.

 

 

I wish there was a way to boost the accuracy for Soul Annihilation outside of Borrowed Instinct. 

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Alright. So, after comparing both Mindstalker and Transcendent - while Transcendent excels in AoE damage, I like the focused single-target damage that the melee Mindstalker offers, with the defensiveness of the Trickster Rogue. I love love love all the goodies it offers. 

[Metaturtle]

I wish there was a way to boost the accuracy for Soul Annihilation outside of Borrowed Instinct.

You could use resolve debuffs like secret horrors and psychovampiric if you need to lower enemy deflection more though that eats into your focus pool unless the target's defense has good reason to for focus gain improvement.

[mant2si]

Alright. So, after comparing both Mindstalker and Transcendent - while Transcendent excels in AoE damage, I like the focused single-target damage that the melee Mindstalker offers, with the defensiveness of the Trickster Rogue. I love love love all the goodies it offers.

My last  min/max thoughts in this discussion

 

1. I don't think that Trickster has something special for single-target damage that Helwalker don't offer for you, in summary you will get +85% addictive damage (Sneak + Deathblows) and Deep wounds passive - on other side Helwalker can offer for you +45% (From Strength), +15% Lighting lash, +20% Fire lash (Multiplicative), so the greatest difference is in +40% addictive damage for SA (But Monk will generate focus faster)

 

2. You also write about Defensiveness, but according to my tests any monk subclass with Tuotilo's Palm, has better defenseless than Trickster, at first Helwalker has +30 Fortitude defense which make him very durable even against mages and cipher enemies, at second it has +20 Will defense, at third it has +20 Reflex defenses from (+5 Dexterity and Tuotilo's Palm) and +10 Deflection from Tuotilo's Palm, Trickster can offer for you only +30 Reflex and +10 Deflection (+30 With Double mirror, but I usually don't use this spell),  

 

2.1 Blade Turning is special ability that make Monk the best passive tank for shot period of time, you can also ignore some boss attack for example Magma Dragon or Ukaizo Dragon Essence

 

3. Monk will also offer for you +2 PEN, +5 DEX and (10 INT) +50% Long effect duration, this is important because 35S and 20S Borrowed instinct is very noticeable, plus monk alone can lower enemies Fortitude by 20 which will hel not only you but also your mages, plus free summons with your equip (each summon usually do +30DM per Hit), + Unlimited full attack with Ranged Weapon

 

3.1 +500% Range for melee weapon will convert your SA to range ability 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by mant2si

[Verde]

And here I thought we were safe from Cyrus's constant build threads

[Haplok]

 

Alright. So, after comparing both Mindstalker and Transcendent - while Transcendent excels in AoE damage, I like the focused single-target damage that the melee Mindstalker offers, with the defensiveness of the Trickster Rogue. I love love love all the goodies it offers.

My last  min/max thoughts in this discussion

 

1. I don't think that Trickster has something special for single-target damage that Helwalker don't offer for you, in summary you will get +85% addictive damage (Sneak + Deathblows) and Deep wounds passive - on other side Helwalker can offer for you +45% (From Strength), +15% Lighting lash, +20% Fire lash (Multiplicative), so the greatest difference is in +40% addictive damage for SA (But Monk will generate focus faster)

 

2. You also write about Defensiveness, but according to my tests any monk subclass with Tuotilo's Palm, has better defenseless than Trickster, at first Helwalker has +30 Fortitude defense which make him very durable even against mages and cipher enemies, at second it has +20 Will defense, at third it has +20 Reflex defenses from (+5 Dexterity and Tuotilo's Palm) and +10 Deflection from Tuotilo's Palm, Trickster can offer for you only +30 Reflex and +10 Deflection (+30 With Double mirror, but I usually don't use this spell),  

 

2.1 Blade Turning is special ability that make Monk the best passive tank for shot period of time, you can also ignore some boss attack for example Magma Dragon or Ukaizo Dragon Essence

 

3. Monk will also offer for you +2 PEN, +5 DEX and (10 INT) +50% Long effect duration, this is important because 35S and 20S Borrowed instinct is very noticeable, plus monk alone can lower enemies Fortitude by 20 which will hel not only you but also your mages, plus free summons with your equip (each summon usually do +30DM per Hit), + Unlimited full attack with Ranged Weapon

 

3.1 +500% Range for melee weapon will convert your SA to range ability 

 

 

 

 

Ad. 1. I think Trickster Sneak scales higher then 35%? Regardless, you conveniently forgot about Rogue active abilities vs monk. Which Monk ability does up to 300% extra damage? Which ability is constantly spammable for +25% damage? And what do you base your assumption about Focus generating speed on? Torment's reach is +20% for THREE wounds. Skyward Kick is nice, but it's level 19 and also pretty expensive AFAIR.

 

Ad. 2. Tuotilo's Palm? So your plan is to tank the damage output?  Also you conveniently leave out 50% damage taken "bonus" of the Helwalker subclass, which is very difficult to compensate. Last but not least, you didn't mention Rymgrim's Visage, which is an excellent melee survivability boost.

 

Ad. 2.1. Short lived indeed. Pretty cool while it lasts and great with Salvation of Time. But again, Trickster has Rymgrim's Visage which serves a somewhat similar purpose but lasts much longer.

 

Ad. 3. Fair enough, if that's a priority. But again, Dichotomous Soul and Instruments of Pain are level 19. Plus now you don't even get Skyward Kick?

 

 

For me Trickster is way more survivable then a Helwalker and requires less babysitting. Single target damage output is also much higher.

[mant2si]

1. I think Trickster Sneak scales higher then 35%? Regardless, you conveniently forgot about Rogue active abilities vs monk. Which Monk ability does up to 300% extra >damage? Which ability is constantly spammable for +25% damage? And what do you base your assumption about Focus generating speed on? Torment's reach is +20% for THREE wounds. Skyward Kick is nice, but it's level 19 and also pretty expensive AFAIR.

1.0 Trickster Sneak add ~ 35% DM

1.1 If you talk about Finishing Blow, then for me this ability works only on target in `near death`  state, or maybe `hurt`

1.2 Which ability is constantly spammable for +25% damage ? Well that good argument, but +25% DM vs Stun affliction which reduce all defenses by -10 and strength by -5, which cause -20 Fortitude defense

1.3 Focus generation because of +35% DM from lashe's 35% lashes DM has the same DM output as +85% to DM 

 

Ad. 2. Tuotilo's Palm? So your plan is to tank the damage output?  Also you conveniently leave out 50% damage taken "bonus" of the Helwalker subclass, which is very difficult to compensate. Last but not least, you didn't mention Rymgrim's Visage, which is an excellent melee survivability boost.

2.1 That is fun but Helwalker, because of free +20 attributes bonus can max resolve and combine it with Tuotilo's Palm + Borrowed Instinct + Cloak of Greater Deflection and achieve 140 Deflection 

2.2 You can't use Rymgrim's Visage to avoid bosses attack or tank is ship combats

 

For me Trickster is way more survivable then a Helwalker and requires less babysitting. Single target damage output is also much highe

For me trickster always DIE from 1 - 2 fortitude/will target spells

[Haplok]

Devastating Blow upgrade. Yeah, mostly on Blooded, preferably near Death enemies. Depending on enemy, when dual wielding, the first hit may go from Blooded to Near Death and the second may kill. Of course that's not guaranteed, depends on enemy hp and defenses and might now be much less likely with 2.1 dual nerf. It also provides +10 Accuracy (which monk skills boost Accuracy?).

+25% damage spammable dual attack (with +2 Pen) is obviously Crippling Strike.

 

Stun is nice but it's CC vs raw damage. Monk doesn't increase damage much prior to Skyward Kick (though Torment's Reach does a little splash damage). AND it's vs Fortitude, which is a bitch to beat. That's a huge weakness of Monks in general: all of their attacks target that defense, which is typically the highest. Sure, there are Enervating Blows, but the Crit rate of such a build isn't particularly high and, even when it lands, it won't drastically change things. On the other hand a Cipher can paralyze, aoe immobilize, charm, frighten and a Trickster can Terrify nearby enemies. So stunning isn't crucial, I'd say.

 

Ad. 2.2. You can't tank in ship boarding actions with Blade Turning either. In fact Mirror Image will may carry you trough the initial, critical burst phase.

 

 

If we're playing exaggeration, for me a Helwalker dies if an enemy as much as sneezes in his general direction.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Haplok

[mant2si]

Devastating Blow upgrade. Yeah, mostly on Blooded, preferably near Death enemies. Depending on enemy, when dual wielding, the first hit may go from Blooded to Near Death and the second may kill. Of course that's not guaranteed, depends on enemy hp and defenses and might now be much less likely with 2.1 dual nerf. It also provides +10 Accuracy (which monk skills boost Accuracy?).

Yeah, accuracy bonus is OK, but there no ACC + PEN ability, so you will lack one of those two options

 

+25% damage spammable dual attack (with +2 Pen) is obviously Crippling Strike.

Crippling Strike is cool, but you will need to mix it with your SA, which is not that good There also DW nerf that reduce both Monk and Trickster damage, but Monk has a lot of cool primary attack skills with unlimited usage

 

 

Stun is nice but it's CC vs raw damage. Monk doesn't increase damage much (though Torment's Reach does a little splash damage). AND it's vs Fortitude, which is a bitch to beat. That's a huge weakness of Monks in general: all of their attacks target that defense, which is typically the highest. Sure, there are Enervating Blows, but the Crit rate of such a build isn't particularly high and, even when it lands, it won't drastically change things. On the other hand a Cipher can paralyze, aoe immobilize, charm, frighten and a Trickster can Terrify nearby enemies. So stunning isn't crucial, I'd say.

Oh, so you never check monks damage rolls I also worry about that vs Fortitude BUT vs Fortitude is only Skyward Kick and L1 ability and all CC's, for example both Stunning Surge hits will be done vs Deflection and Torment's Reach hit also will be done vs Deflection + AOE will be done vs Reflex and only CC will be done vs Fortitude + TR do ~ 30DM because of lashes and PL scaling

 

Don't forget that all rogues CC, except (Blind Strike) check Fortitude + All L6 DPS Cipher spells also check Fortitude, but Monk can lower it at least by -20, when Rogue can't lower it at all 

 

Ad. 2.2. You can't tank in ship boarding actions with Blade Turning either. In fact Mirror Image will may carry you trough the initial, critical burst

Well you can cast at least two of them in chain and do pretty good damage to all enemies around you If you fight with Principe barbarians you can even kill some of them  

 

If we're playing exaggeration, for me a Helwalker dies if an enemy as much as sneezes in his general direction

I always play with small shield + heavy armor combination + resistance to distraction or some range setup if I fight VS boss 

[mant2si]

But  I also forget to tell you that Helwalker will give ~45% addition spell damage AND with Sun & Moon you can cast SA without worrying about other abilities (Sun & Moon do 2x attack). I point about SA because with cipher +1 PEN and Monk's +2 PEN you will hit 14 PEN and can pen even dragon armor from 5m range

Edited September 12, 2018 by mant2si

[Haplok]

Yeah, I check monk damage rolls. Was quite interested in playing a monk. I like two-handers, so monk's primary attacks seemed like a good fit. But I always ended up disapointed with the damage output (except the dual mortar Transcendant... but that's not really due to monk performance). I refuse to play a Nalpasca and in case of Shattered Pillar / regular monk the wound generation is just not fast enough to keep up the skill spam and at the same time use Thunderous Blows, maybe Blade Turning etc. Helwalker is a bit special, as he either can't generate wounds fast enough... or ends up dead real fast. Maybe the issue is that I spec my characters offensively, so can't really keep up something like Dance of Death.

When I had spare wounds, I always ended pretty disapointed with the attacks' effects. 

Note I do not test level 20 builds, but rather level 13 builds. 

 

As for Fortitude checks, I don't care too much if my enemies get Hobbled or not. They'll be Distracted for sneak attacks anyway. And probably also Frightened, maybe terrified. I can also paralyze, immobilize and confuse them. Devastating Blow doesn't care about their Fortitude. Neither does Strike the Bell (not that I recommend it). And I don't actually recommend picking the PL VI Cipher powers

Edited September 12, 2018 by Haplok

[Haplok]

But  I also forget to tell you that Helwalker will give ~45% addition spell damage AND with Sun & Moon you can cast SA without worrying about other abilities (Sun & Moon do 2x attack). I point about SA because with cipher +1 PEN and Monk's +2 PEN you will hit 14 PEN and can pen even dragon armor from 5m range

 

I tried Sun & Moon on a Mindstalker main hand. It's low base damage and Grave Calling did way more damage overall.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Haplok