Evaluating T8 and T9 abilities (solo classes)

[heldred]

After a three runs through the game on POTD, with full parties, I noticed some discrepancies on single-class T8 and T9 abilities.  To create some way of measuring the deficiency, I put together the following methodology:

 

Part 1: Options Rating: This is an objective evaluation derived by taking the class (Priest) with highest number of T8 and T9 abilities and setting it to = 100% (normalized to 10 on 1 to 10 scale).  Every other class uses the highest total as the denominator to yield a rating.    

Part 2: This is subjective: 1-10 Power rankings

Part 3: Sum and Rank

 

Rating of T8/T9s

---------------------------

Priest 10 8 = 18

Wiz 8 10 = 18

Chanter 6 8 = 14

Cipher  5 8 = 13

Monk 4 9 = 13

Druid  6 6 = 12

Ranger 4 8 = 12

Fighter 6 5 = 11

Barb  5 6 = 11

Paladin  5 6 = 11

Rogue 4 6 = 10

 

Now there are some intangibles that should be taken into consideration.  For example, the fact that anyone can cast Avenging Storm cheapens the hell out of a good, class defining skill for Druids.  This isn't as impactful for high-end Priest and Wizard scrolls, since they have many other unique, class defining spells that they can only cast. In addition, some classes have horrible efficiency (cost) to use T8/T9 abilities (for what they do).  Wizard also has the added bonus of not needing to pick any spells on level-up (waste zero points) because of grimoires.  When I look at the resource gap, my initial list really didn't change, with the exception of Wizard moving even higher.  However, I welcome anyone to expand the evaluation to include a measure of resource/efficiency.  

 

After reflection of the initieal data, I believe the following classes need help on T8 and T9 skills (single class):

Rogue, Fighter, Barb, Druid on the critical list, with Ranger and Paladin on the consideration list.  The bottom half of this list definitely needs some attention.

 

My preference is for Obsidian to make ALL CLASSES as fun to play as Wizards (single class).   At the very least, provide way more T8/T9 powers for other classes to match the options of solo wizards and priests.

 

I look forward to seeing other members' thoughts.

[Guest]

How does this account for the different roles that classes play (i.e. support vs striker)?

[Elric Galad]

How does this account for the different roles that classes play (i.e. support vs striker)?

 

I would argue that the purpose of this topic should be to compare Multi vs Single more than classes between them, and evaluate what the additional PL bring to the class.

 

IMHO the game is already pretty well balanced for Multi Class, each one having its own goodies on Tier I - 7.

 

Ranger 4 8 = 12

 

Which Ranger Ability do you value so high on Tier 9 ? Stunning Shots ?

Even with the Synergy with Ranger's high Accuracy, I admit I don't see it that "Gamechanging".

 

I might even consider Whirling Strike to be more "Gamechanging", given that it seems a better Heart of Fury.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Elric Galad

[heldred]

Yeah, Whirling appears to have better results than HoF. I think Rangers, like Rogue, Barb, and Paladin need more T8/T9 abilities.

 

In general, for melee classes, I would like to see more passives in the T8/T9 bucket and some sort of transform.

 

For example, for fighter, you could have:

Bulwark = T8 passive that deflects 25% of ranged attacks and 10% spells

Aegis = T9 transform, 30 sec base, gives +10 Str, +10 Dex, +10 Per, +30% base melee damage, -50% recovery on Armor

 

Let s be frank, Wizards have Citzal’s Martial Power a T6 spell! That thing gives +20 Acc, +20 Defl, +8 Str, Dex, Con... seriously?

 

I think a T9 for a Fighter should at a minimum be comparable to the Wiz T6...

[dunehunter]

Yeah, Whirling appears to have better results than HoF. I think Rangers, like Rogue, Barb, and Paladin need more T8/T9 abilities.

 

And you rate Ranger T8 abilities a solid 4

[Yosharian]

You ought to go into more detail on why you rated each level of abilities the way you did.

[Manveru123]

Resonant Touch and Gambit are "4"? Have you even tried these abilities or is this just another "I only have to read descriptions to know what I'm talking about", like we had with equipment not too long ago?

[dunehunter]

Resonant Touch and Gambit are "4"? Have you even tried these abilities or is this just another "I only have to read descriptions to know what I'm talking about", like we had with equipment not too long ago?

 

And Vanishing Strike is very powerful too. Every hit after u triggered vanishing strike is a 'backstab'. This means an Assassin can use Vanishing Strike, and for the next 10+ second. His spells from scrolls, abilities from equipments will be benefit from 'Assassinate' and get significantly buffed. Not sure if this is a bug or intended tho

[Manveru123]

Likely indented. Base duration of invisibility is very low, and if it broke after one hit, the ability would be garbage.

[mant2si]

Monk & Wizards have better T8 - T9 abilities in the game 

[Manveru123]

That's true, but a Vanishing Strike build is legit fun and powerful.

 

EDIT: If Obs buffed it, to allow Rogue to make ANY attacks for the whole duration of this invisibility effect without breaking it, it would easily compete with anyone dmg-wise.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Manveru123

[heldred]

 

Yeah, Whirling appears to have better results than HoF. I think Rangers, like Rogue, Barb, and Paladin need more T8/T9 abilities.

 

And you rate Ranger T8 abilities a solid 4

 

 

You misunderstood my methodology... 

 

The First Number is the number of options for the class, divided by Priest options (class with the most), normalized for 1-10 rating. (T8+T9) / Priest Options)

 

The Second Number is what I think about the combined Power of T8s and T9s for the class.  In this case, I gave Ranger an 8, which is fair in my experience.  

 

In summary, my recommendation for Ranger would be add more abilities (and make them interesting and useful), no reason to have so few.   

[dunehunter]

 

 

Yeah, Whirling appears to have better results than HoF. I think Rangers, like Rogue, Barb, and Paladin need more T8/T9 abilities.

 

And you rate Ranger T8 abilities a solid 4

 

 

You misunderstood my methodology... 

 

The First Number is the number of options for the class, divided by Priest options (class with the most), normalized for 1-10 rating. (T8+T9) / Priest Options)

 

The Second Number is what I think about the combined Power of T8s and T9s for the class.  In this case, I gave Ranger an 8, which is fair in my experience.  

 

In summary, my recommendation for Ranger would be add more abilities (and make them interesting and useful), no reason to have so few.   

 

 

Ah that makes more sense to me now.

[hilfazer]

Why only 6 for druids, OP? Many a player say high tier spells are uber awesome.

Don't you agree? Don't you think, for example, Tornado is tremendous?

[Manveru123]

I think Tornado only hits once, and you get more damage overall from Maelstrom.

[Lampros]

So the conclusion is that the Priest and the Wizard are the only two classes you can consider NOT multi-classing?

[Haplok]

I think Ascendant also. Not only due to pretty cool T8&9 powers, but also to get earlier access to T6 powers.

[Manveru123]

The conclusion is that you can consider not multiclassing any class you want, because everything works.

 

It's just that casters, especially offensive casters, need power level the most, so they're usually better off as single.

[1TTFFSSE]

Wizards you don't want to multi class unless you are making a martial wizard.

 

Monks work as single class too as they renew resources and have pretty good level 8 and 9 attacks.

 

Oh yeah and ranger if you want to be all "anti" establishment and use whirling strike or twinned shots. 

 

The rest...ugh

 

Yes a pure cipher or priest will have high powerlevel and faster spell progression but neither classes level 8-9 abilities are as amazing as wizard and a multiclass with various strong classes like monk/barbarian gives lots of extra stats and speed that more than make up the lower powerlevel of the multiclass and give other nice perks from the multiclass. 

[mant2si]

Today I tested Gambit L8 Rogue ability and was  disappointed when it return only 2 resources instead of +2 for each crrit, so then I remember how Obsiddian nerf monks Stunning Surge, so my question - is they nerf Gambit also or it works as expected, because I think that original idea of Gambit is return all resources if you crit 2 times ?

 

[pi2repsion]

I don't really see the point in summing scores for "number of abilities scaled to max" and "power level" to determine rank, since that means merely having a lot of abilities of which none are powerful ranks as highly as having few abilities of which all are powerful, and the same as a number of mixes in between, and moreover, regardless of whether a character has many or few abilities to choose between at ranks 8 and 9, he'll only be able to select 4 of them of level 8, and 3 additional of level 8 or 9.

 

It is your methodology and it makes sense to you, but I just don't get why you'd let "having a lot of options, regardless of quality of options" weigh so heavily in your rank score.

 

That aside, I'm currently nearing the end of a playthrough with a singleclassed Troubadour main + companions, and having previously played with singleclassed priests and wizards, I can't help thinking that chanter probably deserves a solid 9 in power ranking for end game abilities, putting him just below wizard rather than on the same level as priest and cipher, because he gets access to several extremely powerful invocations (and invocation upgrades) and chants at tiers 8 and 9, touching on different aspects of combat depending on what one needs, and as if that wasn't enough, some of them scale well with power levels for empower abuse. (And due to sasha's singing scimitar chanter is made for empower abuse, though that's just icing on the cake.)

Edited September 10, 2018 by pi2repsion

[Mocker22]

Define fun. You say you want everyone to be as fun as wizards. A lot of people think they make the game boring because there top end stuff is so powerful.

 

Don't discount barbs too much either, Heart of Fury, Barbaric Retaliation.....Fury on kill. There is some really good **** at pl 8&9 there.

[heldred]

I think choice of skills is always more fun, otherwise all builds become too similar (for solo).

 

I think it is important to point out the discrepancies (limited options and effectiveness), since it would be great to have more efficient and enjoyable solo options.

 

Regarding difficulty, you can always mod the game to make it harder or simply challenge yourself (no scrolls, consumables, etc.). However, I think there will always be people that find a way to trivialize any game/challenge.

[Lampros]

Define fun. You say you want everyone to be as fun as wizards. A lot of people think they make the game boring because there top end stuff is so powerful.

 

Don't discount barbs too much either, Heart of Fury, Barbaric Retaliation.....Fury on kill. There is some really good **** at pl 8&9 there.

What makes end-game Wizard so strong?

 

I've heard several folks mention Meteor Shower. Anything else?

[Haplok]

Missile Salvo