Rogue Abilities & Explosives skill

[Takkik]

There is a few abilities that bother me in the rogue tree and I would like to know if some people find them some uses : Smoke cloud & upgrades, Positioning, Ring the bell, Shadow Step & Flurry of blades.

 

Smoke cloud feel costy for applying Distracted when you can get persitant distraction. If you need a panic button, just better to use invisibility (that you must take). Applying Blind could be more interesting (alternative to blinding strike and in AOE). Smoke grenade upgrade make the ability a persistant AOE.

Another option, make smoke cloud a persistant AOE that distract & Hobble. People stuck inside the cloud have hard time to get out of it. Give you more CC. The dot upgrade add a DMG effect to the AOE.

 

Positioning : An inferior version of Escape that you unlock at PL7... As far I love my rogue to have more low cost abilities, I find this ability just uninteresting.

You could add a self buff to it (Rogue have none outside of PL 8 and it's a PL 7 ability!), if you switch with an ally you buff him too, with an enemy you debuff it.

 

Ring the bell : I find Pierce the bell fine (2 guiles for +45% dmg & +5PEN with ranged weapons), but the one handed melee lack luster. It's stuck between crippling strike (1guile) and Toxic strike (3guiles) that apply a more potent DOT. Just better to spam 2 crippling strikes or use one more guile and do more dmg?

 

Withering Strike : for a 3 guiles cost, I would boost the DMG to 40-50% or make the ACC bonus +20. The description say you strike a vital point, you could expect more chance to critic or more dmg. BEfore the up of all other rogue attacks, withering strike was the only ability with a dmg boost.

 

Shadow step : I don't see lot of people talking about it (or using it?). 3 cost to paralyse a target for 6sec? It's very situationnal. And flurry of blades is the ability that do lot of things (teleportation, buff, paralyse, aoe dmg) but nothing well?

I would just kill to get a separate flurry of blades ability that work like a buffed ghost blades at PL 7. Or make flurry of blades the first upgrade (you unleash an AOE ring of dagger before teleporting, with the hobbled effect) and the last upgrade (at PL8) Paralyse enemies hit by the daggers. For a PL8 ability at least you do an AOE paralyse.

 

 

 

About the bombes, I just wonder why obsidian created a specific skill. Compared to alchemy & arcana bombes offer less options. thematic wise the bombes feel at home with the rogue, I just wonder why they didn't use mechanic or sleight of hand to handle the bombe. The thief archetype is taxed with 3 out of combat skills, why not give them some combat use?

 

Same with stealth, only usefull at the start of the combat and some scripted events just block you from using this skill. Why not, like athletic, give a 1 per encounter hidding ability that allow you to restealth in middle of the combat?

[Boeroer]

I agree on everything except Ring the Bell+ with one handed weapons. Because that stacks its DoT just fine with Arterial Strike's, Gouging Strike's and Toxic Strike's DoT. Two times Gouging Strike for example doesn't work because t)the DoT won't stack.

[knownastherat]

I wonder why Traps, as an offensive tool, are .. how to say this in a civilized way .. slightly sub-optimal to basically everything? Because Josh did not like the cheesy abuse of traps in BG2. Oh ok, fair enough. 

[Takkik]

For ring of the bell it was more a question (I didn't offered any alternative). I haven't used it much because it don't appeal to me, crippling strike + toxic strike isn't enough? (+deep wound, + any weapon that add dot + any other dot effect like a poison consumable, combusting wound etc...). It feel like just another dot ability but without an identity (and perhaps don't fit "Ring the Bell" theme). It don't stand out from all rogue attacks.

 

I think I would just prefere if it was Pierce the ring for all weapons, the armor piercing & high DMG ability. But it's just my personnal opinion, if other people use it it's fine.

Edit : or make the ability a modal that allow you to switch between applying a raw dot, a bonus on PEN & DMG or applying a debuff.

 

EDIT: for Traps, they could fit with bombes as combat consumable, but with a 'long' casting time and short throw range. But with ability to place them while stealthed or invisible.

 

A character with stealth and the new hidding ability, could restealth in battle, place a trap and then attack from behing it to lure an enemy in the trap.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Takkik

[Verde]

Aren't Withering Strike's upgrades substantial?

 

Shadow Step is pretty powerful. 3 is a bit much but it could easily be abused.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Verde

[Takkik]

Aren't Withering Strike's upgrades substantial?

 

Shadow Step is pretty powerful. 3 is a bit much but it could easily be abused.

 

Before 1.1 I don't think withering strike was an op ability, but when they added +25dmg to all rogue abilities, the gap between withering strike and other abilities got smaller (and cost is still the same). A just think the ability could get a little buff (dmg or ACC).

 

I'll be happy to heard about shadow step uses. Like they are I find the 2 first upgrades to costly too, 2 guiles could be better. Shadowing beyond could get a short invisibility (3 sec only, it's really teleport and strike immedialty) and veil a 8-10 sec invisibility (the two could have the same cost). smoke cloud, could be a veil upgrade like the tree suggest it, you become invisible and leave a smoke cloud behind you.

[Boeroer]

Toxic Strike is very good with decent INT. Every tick (3 sec) increases the dmg by 10 points if I remember correctly. Like 6, 16, 26, 36 and so on. It's especially good with AoE weapons like rod+Blast.

[gkathellar]

I wonder why Traps, as an offensive tool, are .. how to say this in a civilized way .. slightly sub-optimal to basically everything? Because Josh did not like the cheesy abuse of traps in BG2. Oh ok, fair enough. 

 

The funny thing about that is how PoE's traps don't work anything like BG2's, taking far more notes from NWN1 (where, incidentally, they're fine).

[knownastherat]

So in NWN1 they were just junk to sell? I would not mind it really IF there was not a mechanic in place pretending they are something else. Remove the option to set traps and nothing will change. I guess what is funny and whatnot is subjective. 

[Rheios]

In POE 1 I tended to at least find a few places to use them - a bridge here that I knew I could kite a group through, the stairs of a lord I knew I was about to tick off, before a huge dungeon end boss I knew was coming and was going to try and kite him (ended up ending up getting used on his adds but it helped). Minor places but kindof nice when they were hit right (although so vastly limited in number that high level the number of useful traps was small). 

In Deadfire most of the fights don't tend to be helped as much at prep-time comparatively and the places I'd really like to use them - ship to ship combat as a nasty 'on-boarding suprise' - aren't an option. Actually the fact that you always end the fight on the top deck, and never go below to sometimes find captives or fight the captain or what not, or get pushed back during a raid to a well trapped corridor or something, is a little disappointing. But they might improve that still.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Rheios

[uuuhhii]

never understand why there are 4 skills（Sleight of Hand Stealth Mechanics Explosives）

condense into 2 will be fine

passives are even worse

[gkathellar]

So in NWN1 they were just junk to sell?

 

Nah, I mean they're similar in the UI sense, in that you place bright green polygons on the field and they go off if enemies step on them. It was a functional approach, generally balanced by making them unsalable and making traps actually worth a damn.

[Boeroer]

Don't they still induce injuries in Deadfire, some even major ones?

 

That wouldn't be useless at all compared to PoE1 where they were really near useless except some high level ones (petrify) and besides getting money. It's a never-ending debuff after all. Enemies don't rest. I wonder if they also die if they get more than 3 injuries. You just need 4 guys with traps to test that...

 

Too bad classes like ranger or rogue don't have abilities that somehow improve traps.

[knownastherat]

I do not think triggered traps inflict injuries on enemies, at least I have not found a trap that does.

[Boeroer]

Ah, ok. They used to in the beta.

[Ilxuss]

I'm pretty sure that traps existing in the world do deal injuries if you manage to lure an enemy into them but if you pick the trap up it loses it.

[wanderon]

I've never figured out how to even set traps in this game which is probably a combination of apathy and a general distaste for their cheesy use in BG - are they currently workable in Deadfire?

 

It would be nice to be able to use them by setting under stealth in an active area (like a certain adra warehouse) .

[gkathellar]

I've never figured out how to even set traps in this game which is probably a combination of apathy and a general distaste for their cheesy use in BG - are they currently workable in Deadfire?

 

It would be nice to be able to use them by setting under stealth in an active area (like a certain adra warehouse) .

 

They're workable-ish, but you can only have one on the field at a time, and they don't do nearly enough damage to justify that. Not worth bothering with after Port Maje, if there.

[wanderon]

 

I've never figured out how to even set traps in this game which is probably a combination of apathy and a general distaste for their cheesy use in BG - are they currently workable in Deadfire?

 

It would be nice to be able to use them by setting under stealth in an active area (like a certain adra warehouse) .

 

They're workable-ish, but you can only have one on the field at a time, and they don't do nearly enough damage to justify that. Not worth bothering with after Port Maje, if there.

 

 

That's too bad maybe they will tweak them before it's over.

[gkathellar]

 

 

I've never figured out how to even set traps in this game which is probably a combination of apathy and a general distaste for their cheesy use in BG - are they currently workable in Deadfire?

 

It would be nice to be able to use them by setting under stealth in an active area (like a certain adra warehouse) .

 

They're workable-ish, but you can only have one on the field at a time, and they don't do nearly enough damage to justify that. Not worth bothering with after Port Maje, if there.

 

 

That's too bad maybe they will tweak them before it's over.

 

Yeah, I agree - at this point, pre-combat prep is mostly just "take some drugs." It's a shame.

 

knownastherat's point that you're generally just going to sell them is also valid - most traps have a pretty decent sale price, so the irony is that the point in the game where you're most likely to get some mileage out of them (early) is also the point where you might be hurting for cash and will want to sell them for a bit of other junk.

[wanderon]

 

 

 

I've never figured out how to even set traps in this game which is probably a combination of apathy and a general distaste for their cheesy use in BG - are they currently workable in Deadfire?

 

It would be nice to be able to use them by setting under stealth in an active area (like a certain adra warehouse) .

 

They're workable-ish, but you can only have one on the field at a time, and they don't do nearly enough damage to justify that. Not worth bothering with after Port Maje, if there.

 

 

That's too bad maybe they will tweak them before it's over.

 

Yeah, I agree - at this point, pre-combat prep is mostly just "take some drugs." It's a shame.

 

knownastherat's point that you're generally just going to sell them is also valid - most traps have a pretty decent sale price, so the irony is that the point in the game where you're most likely to get some mileage out of them (early) is also the point where you might be hurting for cash and will want to sell them for a bit of other junk.

 

 

I am apparently still stuck in my BG hoarder mode where I rarely use any drugs or potions other than the occasional healing potion in battle and food for resting.

 

For me pre-combat prep often is simply deciding on each party members opening gambit - only to frustrate me as the battle opens and almost eveyone ignores my opening order and does as they please 

 

I am hoping for a special Beraths Blessing for Most Crap Hoarded Ever  

[knownastherat]

I've never figured out how to even set traps in this game which is probably a combination of apathy and a general distaste for their cheesy use in BG - are they currently workable in Deadfire?

 

It would be nice to be able to use them by setting under stealth in an active area (like a certain adra warehouse) .

 

Exactly

 

 

 

Josh's thoughts

 

 

[Takkik]

problem of combat prep is that it's not always applicable (or you already need to know the game). Some combats are scripted (like naval combats). In this game, stealth, pickpocket, traps... feel like abusing the system. It's really one thing I hate with deadfire rogue. Backstab, invisibility etc... mostly used to kill one enemy, reset combat, kill another etc... Instead of tactics you can use during a normal party fight.

 

Since they introduced bombes, they could have included traps as a new combat consumables using the same skill. More variety for the bombes.

Stealth : Like I proposed in first post, You should be able to restealth in combat. A 1 per encounter use like for athletic. That would make stealth usefull in all combat situation.

Pickpoket : why a separate skill? You must use stealth to steal... just merge it with stealth, like explosive & mechanic.

 

Backstab: I really dislike the weapon dmg bonus... because the rogue already have sneak attack & deathblow. Why not make it a passive that boost any martial ability used from stealth? I'm unsure power level affect martial abilities (I think someone reported it boost base weapon dmg?), but I would love if using a toxic strike from stealth with backstab actualy make the poison more potent. Same for crippling strike bleeding, or boost the bonus of a finishing blow etc... Boost the PL of the next attack ability. That would allow it to work with dual weilding too. Assuming PL change something with weapon abilities.

 

 

In my opinion, the skill system is a mistake. When you don't know the system, it's really obscure what the value represent. I really miss the generic abilities from POE1, and the ones introduced in deadfire are uninspired.

They could have introduced a general ability tree linked to character level and not PL (so doesn't mater if your solo or MC). Like in poe1 it work like the feat system of POE1. Instead of abstract values of the skill, introduce passives like a boost in alchemy duration (+x% duration), more potent alchemy etc... Bluff, diplomatie etc... could be passive that when you unlock just give you the options in dialogue.

And more important, reintroduce the active abilities, like viper strike, stealth could be a new invisibility ability (with a cooldown when out of combat?), same with pickpoket. Add some new 'general' martial and spell abilities (like arcane assault)... That would allow a wizard that use conjure weapon have easier acces to some martial abilities.

 

The power level system is a great idea, just completly underused. Why not every abilities have keywords? Exemple, why Toxic strike don't have the poison keyword? With more gear and passives that boost power level of different keyword, more build options. Cipher spells have keywords but you don't have any gear that boost them.

 

Instead of skills points, you boost your social abilities through power level. The advantage, is that you can make social abilities and combat abilities share some keywords, so you boost both. Exemple : charm & persuasion : make them share a keyword, a cipher or chanter with strong combat charming should be able to persuade more easly in dialogues.

 

Steath, smoke veil( invisibility), escape, pickpocket etc... give them illusion keyword, and perhaps some new rogue only keyword. Someone that master illusion should be more potent with these abilities.

 

Keywords should work as some sort of sub specialisations that can apply to any class.