Romance in KoTOR 2

[Child of Flame]

It has been suggested that there is no genius without the touch of madness.

It has been proven more or less that most geniuses, artistic or other suffered from an affliction more or less like Bi-Polar. It gives them the duality, and the inspiration to form their greatest works.

[Gorth]

It has been proven more or less that most geniuses, artistic or other suffered from an affliction more or less like Bi-Polar. It gives them the duality, and the inspiration to form their greatest works.

It has been suggested that madness and genius have a common source. When the brain processes stimuli, it "learns" to discard information that it considers irrelevant.

 

For some unknown reason, some people doesn't develop these inhibitors and the brain is more "open" for input, which other peoples brains might observe, but discard as irrelevant.

 

These people are frequently called "creative", as they can observe things, where others can not (e.g. artists etc.).

 

In extreme cases, the information becomes overwhelming and a high intelligence is required to process the information. These people are able to utilize input in ways most other people can't. These are often referred to as "geniuses" (e.g. Einstein etc.).

 

If a person lacks inhibitors and the intelligence to process it, they succumb to "madness" (i.e. they tend to lose their grip on reality)

 

Sometimes people starts out with low inhibitors and high intelligence, but eventually the mind tires, intelligent or not, and madness sets in after a period of brilliance.

 

Interesting field of researh, but I'm currently too lazy to look up the links for the source...

[EnderAndrew]

That's all hogwash. Genius comes from talking to badgers. They've got the greatest ideas!

[Child of Flame]

It has been proven more or less that most geniuses, artistic or other suffered from an affliction more or less like Bi-Polar.  It gives them the duality, and the inspiration to form their greatest works.

It has been suggested that madness and genius have a common source. When the brain processes stimuli, it "learns" to discard information that it considers irrelevant.

 

For some unknown reason, some people doesn't develop these inhibitors and the brain is more "open" for input, which other peoples brains might observe, but discard as irrelevant.

 

These people are frequently called "creative", as they can observe things, where others can not (e.g. artists etc.).

 

In extreme cases, the information becomes overwhelming and a high intelligence is required to process the information. These people are able to utilize input in ways most other people can't. These are often referred to as "geniuses" (e.g. Einstein etc.).

 

If a person lacks inhibitors and the intelligence to process it, they succumb to "madness" (i.e. they tend to lose their grip on reality)

 

Sometimes people starts out with low inhibitors and high intelligence, but eventually the mind tires, intelligent or not, and madness sets in after a period of brilliance.

 

Interesting field of researh, but I'm currently too lazy to look up the links for the source...

Good post Gorth. Yes, Einstein comes to mind indeed. I believe someone said about him, was that what gave him his genius, is he never ceased to look at things around him as a child would, everything is possible; nothing is beyond imagination. Which refers to the 'openness' you speak of.

[EnderAndrew]

I have a lot smart friends, and I've met a lot of smart people.

 

I've only met one person who I would truly call a genius. We call him "Captain Oblivious". He once dated a girl for two months, and didn't realize it. We often make reference to the joke about the ceiling, ya' know, the one above his head?

 

Yet, Steve is a math genius like none I've ever seen. Without ever really studying, he tested out of every undergraduate math class Creighton University offered, during his Freshman year. He casually flipped through books on fuzzy math, absorbing it in no time at all. He tried explaining some of it, but I just don't quite get fuzzy math.

 

He partied every night, has all the time in the world for his friends, and breezed through school. By his sophmore year, he was a teacher aide for physics and math classes, and then some. They had nothing else for him to do, so he was giving lectures, at 20. Grad school consisted of shipping him off to New York to do research smashing sub-atomic particles together in a nuclear reactor, trying to recreate conditions at the time of the big-bang. I'm not sure that's a great idea, but what do I know?

 

Without trying, he had a Masters. He's currently deciding whether to get a doctorate in physics, or start on another path, and get a computer programming degree for fun.

 

I don't think Steve is insane at any level, but he is often so deep in thought on some random project, that he isn't entirely "there".

[Child of Flame]

I have a lot smart friends, and I've met a lot of smart people.

 

I've only met one person who I would truly call a genius.  We call him "Captain Oblivious".  He once dated a girl for two months, and didn't realize it.  We often make reference to the joke about the ceiling, ya' know, the one above his head?

 

Yet, Steve is a math genius like none I've ever seen.  Without ever really studying, he tested out of every undergraduate math class Creighton University offered, during his Freshman year.  He casually flipped through books on fuzzy math, absorbing it in no time at all. He tried explaining some of it, but I just don't quite get fuzzy math.

 

He partied every night, has all the time in the world for his friends, and breezed through school.  By his sophmore year, he was a teacher aide for physics and math classes, and then some.  They had nothing else for him to do, so he was giving lectures, at 20.  Grad school consisted of shipping him off to New York to do research smashing sub-atomic particles together in a nuclear reactor, trying to recreate conditions at the time of the big-bang.  I'm not sure that's a great idea, but what do I know?

 

Without trying, he had a Masters.  He's currently deciding whether to get a doctorate in physics, or start on another path, and get a computer programming degree for fun.

 

I don't think Steve is insane at any level, but he is often so deep in thought on some random project, that he isn't entirely "there".

ROFL awesome.

 

I believe you're thinking of a particle accelerator like the one they're building in the Alps, not a nuclear reactor? Usually several miles long, it hurtles different elemental atoms at each other, trying to find elusive subatomic particles like the Higgs something or other...can't remember ATM, my brain is too fuzzy right now, as it's 2:02 AM here.

[EnderAndrew]

Perhaps it's a particle accelerator, at some nuclear plant or something. It's the STAR project in New York. If I weren't so lazy at the moment, I'd look it up. I think it's in Brookhaven, NY.

 

The funny thing is that a Catholic (albiet, Jesuit) university is trying to prove the Big Bang theory correct. Does anyone else find this humorous?

 

Side note, a few years back, Steve left for NY on September 9, 2001. He tried explaing the project (smashing sub-atomic particles together, etc). We told him not to blow up New York. Two days later, 9/11 happened. Jokingly, we still blame Steve for blowing up New York. Steve was stuck in Manhattan on the day of the attacks, and we feared the worst, but luckily he was never hurt, just trapped on the island for 12 hours.

[Jurgenaut]

The funny thing is that a Catholic (albiet, Jesuit) university is trying to prove the Big Bang theory correct. Does anyone else find this humorous?

It isn't that strange. The aspect of "A beginning of everything" would imply that something or someone started it all. Maybe something similar to a christian diety.

 

Unproven mysteries draw the attention of the superstitious.

 

Good reading tip: "A brief history of time" by Stephen Hawking

[Alyt]

How about better dialog options and less cliched characters to romance with in the first place ?!?

 

Would that too much to ask ?!?

 

Ho wait, you guys think KOTOR romances were the epidome of literary perfection, nevermind...

If you remember your ESB, they were trying to emulate the Han-Leia romance. I watched ESB again last night and i must say they succeeded quite well.

 

This is Star Wars, not Shakespeare. You may want Shakespeare on that tall and narrow pedestal you've built for yourself, but you aren't going to get it with KotOR2.

 

So why waste your time?

[Gorth]

This is Star Wars, not Shakespeare.  You may want Shakespeare on that tall and narrow pedestal you've built for yourself, but you aren't going to get it with KotOR2.

 

So why waste your time?

Who wants Shakespeare ?

 

Try this on for size, Bastila on the Starforge:

 

Love me slou

And love me drou

And love me layde on bere.

Love is my pes,

for love I ches,

Man to buyen dere.

 

(Love killed me

And love dragged me

And love laid me on the bier.

Love is my peace,

and for love I chose,

To redeem mankind at great cost.)

 

John Grimstone, 1372

 

Ok, I'm exaggerating a bit, but a bit more style to the romance wouldn't hurt

[Alyt]

Who wants Shakespeare ?

 

Try this on for size, Bastila on the Starforge:

 

Love me slou

And love me drou

And love me layde on bere.

Love is my pes,

for love I ches,

Man to buyen dere.

 

(Love killed me

And love dragged me

And love laid me on the bier.

Love is my peace,

and for love I chose,

To redeem mankind at great cost.)

 

John Grimstone, 1372

 

Ok, I'm exaggerating a bit, but a bit more style to the romance wouldn't hurt

 

And how do you know that the love that inspired those words wasn't just as banal as the love between Han/Leia, Revan/Bastila or Revan/Carth?

[Meshugger]

This is Star Wars, not Shakespeare.

[EnderAndrew]

What ego through yonder window breaks?

It is the East, and Bastilla is the Sun!

Rise proud Sun and upstage the main PC

Whose back-story is like a soap opera!

 

Iambic pentameter ain't no thing!

[Opus131]

This is Star Wars, not Shakespeare.

Let me get this straight.

 

Are you saying that :

 

a) Star Wars sucks

 

b ) Everything Star Wars has to be a perfect replica of the movies

 

c) Therefore everything in the Star Wars universe has to suck. ?

 

Interesting...

[Alyt]

This is Star Wars, not Shakespeare.

Let me get this straight.

 

Are you saying that :

 

a) Star Wars sucks

 

b ) Everything Star Wars has to be a perfect replica of the movies

 

c) Therefore everything in the Star Wars universe has to suck. ?

 

Interesting...

 

That would be no, no and no.

 

a) Just because something is different doesn't mean that it is inferior.

 

b ) I would certainly like KotOR2 to be more like the Star Wars movies than your average Fantasy CRPG(or Shakespeare ).

 

c) Negated by a).

[Raven]

why not have the games teach a lesson instead of teaching kids that horrible pick-up lines will get you laid.

[Opus131]

a) Just because something is different doesn't mean that it is inferior.

 

'Different' ?!? Is that different has in 'differently able' ?!?

 

b ) I would certainly like it to be more like the Star Wars movies than your average Fantasy CRPG(or Shakespeare ).

 

I would defenatly like it to be well written and well thought out rather then be like the Star Wars movies and your average fantasy CRPG (particularly if made by Bioware).

 

You were trying to exscuse the blandess of the KOTOR romances by saying it was reminescent of the Star Wars romance, which aslo implies that you consider the Star Wars romance to be bland in the first place.

 

The fact is, Bastila romance was as shalow as it was boring. If they can't improve upon it, i'd rather have none at all...

[Locue]

From Chris Avellone in the Questions to the Devs thread:

 

I don't like to lock CNPC quest down to romance quests - it's more like we have relationship quests in K2, which aren't tied solely to romance but how much you are an example to your allies and how you treat them. Things like building friendships, loyalties, developing grudging respect or contempt, and occasionally the need to strangle the life out of each other will occur. And you can cheerfully shut them all down and ignore them if you want, though your companions may occasionally lay into each other without prompting.

 

I'm sorry, but I think this is an horrible idea. One of the reasons that KoTOR has been rated the best RPG of all time across all platforms is because of the romances. While I do like the other interactions, and look forward to them, cutting out the romance is simply awful.

 

KoTOR was very inspiring to many, many people, due in large part to the character development that was there when the PC was drawing romantically closer to either Carth or Bastila. Romances are included in just about every piece of classical literature out there, from every genre. There is a universal appeal about them, which is one of the reasons why Baldur's Gate II was such an enormous success as well.

 

The romances are one of the most talked about aspects of the game. The majourity of players love having them in there, and truly appreciate how much they added to the enjoyment of playing KoTOR. I know many, many people are looking forward to the romances in KoTOR 2, and when I asked at E3, I was informed by LA that there would be romances in the story.

 

Looking at it from purely a writer's standpoint, love is the single most powerful and most used device out there. Using Star Wars, the Han/Leia romance aside, the catalyst for most of the movies was love. Luke's love for Obi Wan, Luke's love for his friends, and finally, Luke's love for his father. It's difficult to inspire that kind of devotion in a third person environment like a game without using the romance card.

 

Please, please reconsider the romance option. I truly believe that KoTOR2 will suffer if it is left out, and many, many fans will be disappointed.

They're not leaving out the romances, Adria. They are merely making the character relationships better and hopefully a bit more complex than Bioware managed to do. As for the question, "is romances needed?" I am relieved to tell you all that I don't care. Hell, it was fun to try and knock off Bastila but I couldn't help but get the feeling that this was something they put in on their free time on their coffee break. And that's all of the party conversations, I'm talking about.

 

Bastila and Carth was the potential romance-characters. HK47 gave you a reason to max up your Repair-skill so that he could get better stats and told you his rather fascinating story of blood and mayhem throughout the galaxy... Juhani was the crybaby-teenager of the group needing comfort and someone to hug her when needed. T3M4 was... well, uh... pointless to talk to. Mission was also pointless to talk to. The wookie was ALSO pointless to talk to. Lastly; Canderous only talked about his heroics as a warrior. Not the most interesting conversation there...

 

What I'm hoping for in KotOR2 is that they make dialogue (party members) a bit more free.

[Zane0]

I strongly agree with Chi`ara's comments on the importance of having two-way meaningful dialogue with the characters that you meet, and being able to shift their personality depending on your choices. The special advantage that CRPGs possess over say, novels, is that with good design you can enjoy a good plot and also make changes to the story and the characters as you please. If devs don't really take advantage of this, then.. novels are cheaper then computer games!

 

I think KOTOR II is aiming for more character depth and interaction, because I've heard bits of talk about being able to change your companions' alignments. That is good!

[Raven]

I strongly agree with Chi`ara's comments on the importance of having two-way meaningful dialogue with the characters that you meet, and being able to shift their personality depending on your choices. The special advantage that CRPGs possess over say, novels, is that with good design you can enjoy a good plot and also make changes to the story and the characters as you please. If devs don't really take advantage of this, then.. novels are cheaper then computer games!

 

I think KOTOR II is aiming for more character depth and interaction, because I've heard bits of talk about being able to change your companions' alignments. That is good!

are you trying to say you cant read a book?

[Zane0]

Yeah, that's definitely what I'm trying to say.

 

Let me attempt to clarify. If a CRPG is released that has no real interactivity with characters, and plays down a completely linear path, I will enjoy it less then a CRPG with a branching plot and a story that can be changed by your actions. In other words, CRPG #1 could be matched by a good novel while CRPG #2 is fundamentally different from any book that I could find.

 

It's my hope that you understand my point a little better now.

[Raven]

Yeah, that's definitely what I'm trying to say.

 

Let me attempt to clarify. If a CRPG is released that has no real interactivity with characters, and plays down a completely linear path, I will enjoy it less then a CRPG with a branching plot and a story that can be changed by your actions. In other words, CRPG #1 could be matched by a good novel while CRPG #2 is fundamentally different from any book that I could find.

 

It's my hope that you understand my point a little better now.

what is the title of crpg1, and what si the title of crpg2? i dont know what games you are talking about!

 

reading a book lets your mind create everything, a video game you just stare at the screen. dont get me wrong, i love video games, but games and books are two different things which arn't really comparable.

[Zane0]

CRPG 1 and 2 are what one would call hypothetical. They are imaginary, and exist only to prove a point.

 

CRPG 1 is the first one that I mentioned: No real interactivity with characters, and plays down a completely linear path.

 

CRPG 2 is the second: With a branching plot and a story that can be changed by your actions.

 

CRPG 1 is a game like the Final Fantasy series.

 

CRPG 2 is a game like Placescape: Torment, KOTOR, or even Deus Ex.

 

Now, when you read a book, you're an observer of events. You have no way to influence the story in any way. You're just along for the ride. If you don't like it, you have to get off. Books are much like CRPG 1 in the sense that you are along for the ride in both cases. There is no possible way to influence the actions of the main character or the caste in either CRPG 1 or in any book.

 

CRPG 2 on the other hand, gives you choices ranging from how the main character will react to situations, to his/her gender, to how the story ends. Books don't give you anything like this; they're completely linear.

 

In my opinion, CRPG 2 is a superior game to CRPG 1. If I wanted, I could read a book and wouldn't miss much of what CRPG 1 has to offer other then shiny things and explosions, which I could enjoy in any movie. However, CRPG 2 is quite different from books, movies, or any other kind of media because you have choices within a story. I could not read a book or watch a movie and get an experience similar to playing CRPG 2.

 

*Gasp* That is my point!

[Adria Teksuni]

As stated before, the reason for my fears about the romances, is that the response by Chris was to a question asking if there were going to be romances in the story. Instead of saying, "Yes, and we're also doing this" we got the response quoted. To me it says that either there will be no romances in the story, or the romances will be an afterthought, not fully developed and just as boring, banal, and bland as people claim KoTORs were, or worse.

 

I would LOVE to be wrong on this, trust me.

 

I'm not sure why people are saying Bastila's romance was shallow. I keep seeing the comments, but I'm not seeing any reasons for the statements. Bastila's character was incredibly complex, she was SUPPOSED to be a bitch, not just a strong female character type. The fact as to why she was a bitch was because of all the internal conflicts she was suffering from. The interactions were the vehicle the PC was able to use to find out those reasons. Same thing with Carth. He was mistrustful and plaintive because of his past.

 

Of course, such character delving is not for everyone, not everyone is interested in such things, but as said before, I simply don't understand the claims of the shallow character designs.

 

I have no intentions of starting a Carth worship thread on this board, I didn't start them on the Bioware boards. Besides which, the overwhelming negativity here would prevent any liking of Carth to happen anyway.

 

I, for one, thought the romances were well done, the teasing flirtation quite humourous and intriguing. Most romances in VGs today revolve around very straightforward cause and effect, and if you attempt to insult the love interest in any manner, the romance is blown. Instead of saying "Here's your lover, go get 'em" Bioware chose to take a different route, and prolong the tension throughout the game. Formula? Well...yeah. But they're called formulas because they work. There are very, very few CRPGs out there today with a romance storyline at all, and even fewer other genre type games with one that isn't "Boy meets girl, girl gets killed/kidnapped/turns out to be a traitor, boy must avenge/rescue/find out why.

 

As far as greater non-romantic interactions, I am ALL for it. ANY kind of in-depth character development is a great thing, and integral to good role playing, computer or otherwise. I am very glad that Obsidian is choosing to concentrate on this aspect of KoTOR2, but I am afraid that they'll do it at the expense of the romance options, perhaps even falling back on the tired boy meets girl cliches mentioned above.

 

Of course there were items in the KoTOR romances that needed serious work, it's a game, and as a game they are limited to the amount of overall content they want to put in. A dark side female romance ending had to get cut, as did a lot of light side male romance dialogue. As such at times it was difficult to see why, exactly, ANYONE would choose to fall in love with either Bastila or Carth. Who wants to be a lover's psychiatrist all the time? Still, aside from PS:T and maybe the male romances of BG:II, KoTOR has the best romances in a CRPG I've seen to date.

 

As far as the fanfic and fanart goes. *shrug* Every popular media form has it, KoTOR is no different. If it bothers someone so much, then they shouldn't read it or view it. Then it can stay in its own little corner of cyberspace and not aggravate anyone. In other words, if you don't like it, change the channel.

 

Anyway, sorry for the hideously long post...

[Jora]

I would LOVE to be wrong on this, trust me.

You are. Akari confirmed it:

 

His wording was 'aren't tied solely to romance'. He wasn't saying that there isn't going to be any, but that the NPC interactions are going to be based on more than just romance.

 

-Akari

 

B)