Romance in KoTOR 2

[Fionavar]

I really would hate to start policing member's posting habits ... or worse yet I would hate to have to preview people's posting in order to approve it ...

 

So could we please try to articulate without degenerating into personal remarks and attacks. Counter the argument, do not attack the person.

[athenaprime]

I will be the first to dance in the streets if we are interpreting Mr. Avellone's comments as to the lack of a romance, but just in case we are not, allow me to add my strong vote for keeping romance options in the game.

 

KOTOR 1 impressed me with the interaction between the NPCs and the PC, and the NPCs and each other. It knocked my socks off when I discovered that not only was there a romance option for a male PC, but there existed one for a female PC as well. KOTOR completely turned me around on the value of having any sort of game console in my home (I was vehemently against it, and feared my husband and child devolving into vidiots by its mere presence), when I played through the romance, and through the Bioware boards, learned that the character's writer (David Gaider) actually went to the trouble to research the elements of a well-written romance and use that research in the development of the character.

 

I regard RPGs, and CRPGs in the class of KOTOR 1 as interactive multimedia storytelling. Arguing along those lines, I maintain that the story is the most significant element of the game. And if you do your research about stories that the public likes (and spends their money on), you will find that by far, the most popular genre of fiction in terms of sales is the Romance. Romance sells, and people find it entertaining and uplifting. It creates opportunities to plunge into characters and make them significantly more well-rounded and real, and at the end of the day, I'd rather put down the controller with the sense of having just interacted with story characters than a bunch of pixels.

[Ivan the Terrible]

Kumquat quoted it, but it wasn't clear that it was from Akari and not from him. So, from the 'Ask Developer's Questions' thread...

 

His wording was 'aren't tied solely to romance'. He wasn't saying that there isn't going to be any, but that the NPC interactions are going to be based on more than just romance.

 

-Akari

 

False alarm, folks. In point of fact, it might be better to celebrate; we might find more of a Dak'kon-like 'comrades in arms' thing for NPCs we don't want to screw.

[Drakron]

The only people who think Bastila is a ***** are those who lack the ability to understand good characterization.

Bastila is shallow, NPCs tend to be a archtypes and do not deviate from that.

 

There was no good characterization of something that is simply a archtype, Bastila was the "the Jedi princess" and show nothing besides that, none of the NPCs shown anything more that what arcgtype they were.

 

Wakka in FF X for example was religious fanatic but the game thrown parts were Wakka acted more that his archtype, there was his behavior towards Rikku and of course the whole Yevon religion being displayed on what it was.

 

Being a archtype is fine but only being a archtype is not fine.

[smartiegrrl]

No my friend, it's the hollywood syndrome and their failure to portray strong female characters without having to use the old 'b*tch on a power trip' routine. Such boring cliches are Bioware's trademark.

I agree with this to a certain extent. It is strange how utterly different the Carth and even the Juhani romances were, compared to the Bastila one.

 

As I'm playing with a male character I was increasingly surprised by my dialog options. "You want me to say what to her???"

 

I don't care for that particular "meme".

 

 

That would be nice if the romance wasn't tied to the plot. Its harsh when you find out you're Revan - especially the way that Carth finds out. Its heartbreaking. Or the bug if you screw up and NPC quest - like Carth's or Bastila's. That sucks too.

 

So that would be nice if the romances were more nebulous.

[Darque]

posted in dev questions:

 

 

I don't like to lock CNPC quest down to romance quests - it's more like we have relationship quests in K2, which aren't tied solely to romance but how much you are an example to your allies and how you treat them. Things like building friendships, loyalties, developing grudging respect or contempt, and occasionally the need to strangle the life out of each other will occur. And you can cheerfully shut them all down and ignore them if you want, though your companions may occasionally lay into each other without prompting.

Ack! No romances! Yikes. While the rest of the interactions sound great, no romances is a bad, bad idea.

His wording was 'aren't tied solely to romance'. He wasn't saying that there isn't going to be any, but that the NPC interactions are going to be based on more than just romance.

 

-Akari

2 things

 

1) I agree, it sounds like they are DEVELOPING character relationships not destroying them

 

2) Why the heck did kumquatq3 sign his post with Akari?

 

 

I find this most curious for lots of reasons....

[sniggy]

the only characters that seemed shallow or inadequate to me were t3, mission and zaalbar. t3 didn't do anything but being a high-tech equipment- no personality whatsoever.

 

mission was pretty good in the beginning, but faded into the background later on.

 

zaalbar... we'll she was right about him. he wasn't much of a conversationalist.

 

"so... do you have anything to say?"

"nope."

 

"so... do you have anything to say?"

"nope."

 

"so... do you have anything to say?"

"nope."

 

i tried this on every planet a couple of times. until i got fed up with the furball. it was quite fun to get rid of him on the starforge.

[kumquatq3]

I don't care for that particular "meme".

 

leave dawkins out of this

[kumquatq3]

posted in dev questions:

 

 

I don't like to lock CNPC quest down to romance quests - it's more like we have relationship quests in K2, which aren't tied solely to romance but how much you are an example to your allies and how you treat them. Things like building friendships, loyalties, developing grudging respect or contempt, and occasionally the need to strangle the life out of each other will occur. And you can cheerfully shut them all down and ignore them if you want, though your companions may occasionally lay into each other without prompting.

Ack! No romances! Yikes. While the rest of the interactions sound great, no romances is a bad, bad idea.

His wording was 'aren't tied solely to romance'. He wasn't saying that there isn't going to be any, but that the NPC interactions are going to be based on more than just romance.

 

-Akari

 

 

2) Why the heck did kumquatq3 sign his post with Akari?

 

 

Well, aparently I did a s***ty job after all

 

If you look at my post, it says "posted in dev questions:"

 

Trying to show everything after was from that thread. Akari said that, not me. THis whole thread is for nothing, and due to people not reading and understanding what was said in the first place.

[Feza]

Add my vote to the "yes for romances".

 

I'm thrilled they're working on more NPC interactions besides romances, and please don't stop that!

 

I do hope Adria has misinterpreted what the Dev has said.

 

Feza

[Darque]

oh... hehe... ignore me then... I just woke up

 

And here I thought I found a Dev in disguise

[Delerius_Jedi]

Nebulous? Sure. But I'm saying that they should at least give you the option to act as you will. If you want to romance an NPC, then the option should be there. If it's a "scoundrel" like Mira seems to be, she might respond more to a straight-forward approach than the soft touch.

 

Personally I was never abusive towards Bastila in the first game, I was thinking: "Well, maybe ticking off the Jedi isn't a good idea". There's a point where she tells your character that she's come to depend on you, and if you ask her to elaborate just a little bit, there'll be a piece where she says:

 

"I..you know I can't feel that way about you, about any man, it isn't permitted. I am a Jedi, I must resist these temptations. But I still want to consider you a friend. We could never be anything more though, that...that isn't allowed."

 

The way she said it; she sounded sad at the fact that she "wasn't permitted" to feel it, I was genuenly shocked. So I think the romance with her played out fine, just don't be overly rude, teasing is ok, in a mild form.

 

Worst moment in the game for me: Facing her at the Temple.

Best moment: When she told Revan she loved him.

 

Anyway; the point I was trying to make was that the option should be there, for you to get "involved" with the NPC's you like. Seeing as none of the NPC's that have been revealed so far for KOTOR II seems to be under-age, then multiple-romance options would be a blast.

 

And completely in tune with the Classic Star Wars feel. If one of the romances evolves to a deeper level, based on your actions in the game, then all the better "true love lasts forever", heh.

[kumquatq3]

oh... hehe... ignore me then... I just woke up

 

And here I thought I found a Dev in disguise

no, and my "not reading and understanding..." bit wasn't aimed at you. More at the fact that people managed to freak out when it was clearly said:

 

it's more like we have relationship quests in K2, which aren't tied solely to romance

 

just means you can have deep interaction with a NPC without going down the romance path

[Vyperhand]

yup... looks like at least I was a bit overwhelmed with chicken little syndrome.

 

as I mention, it was more the developer saying he didn't like tying the to romances at least that spooked me. what devs dislike often fails to happen.

 

but I'm GLAD to be wrong on this one! (happily sits down to a meal of fresh roasted crow) :D

[nightcleaver]

He doesn't mean no romance. If he meant no romance, he'd say that. What I'm thinking is that something in the thread, some implication or maybe just what he was thinking about at the time(again, quests), related to a greater portion of the story time devoted to romance. I don't think there was any question as to whether or not romance was in or not b efore, and this statement doesn't conclusively say otherwise. I would like to see the thread in question where he says this so that I could do a better analysis, though I'm sure anyone else is perfectly capable of doing it. I seriously doubt anyone would, though, without prompting.

I think, maybe, it could've been how much or any number of factors to him thinking it. But like Adria said, he's not answering the question. Seeing as how he's not a politician, I would suspect he has reason for answering the question the way he did.

Just to make this clear: I'm all for romances. However, romances are based on character development, and with a lack of that we get soap opera syndrome. Now, soap operas are REALLY popular, but not good quality stories. I think that may be the concept that Chris was responding to.

 

 

As for Bastila? How do you know they were making her mean to fit an ARCHETYPE (note the E in there) of hollywood? People in real life are like that. She seemed to have perfectly real reasons to act like she did. I didn't see her as a very strong woman; Mission, however, was strong, as was Juhani, and neither of them even faintly fit the stereotypes you mentioned. So, you see, Bioware wasn't going the "b*tch" for the "Strength" route at all, and it's more a sign of your own limited view of the world, rather than my own pre-pubescant ignorance. These are fictional characters, sure, but real life characters don't follow the rules of the mind, so why SHOULD fictional characters? She wasn't really well developed, but, thank you very much, she was a perfectly full character. It's like saying that because you don't like someone in real life, they're a stereotype - because that's exactly what you're doing.

So please, please, put more thought into what you say - and don't, while making typo's and unfounded assumptions about what went into a writers writing, insult the intelligence of everyone who isn't as jaded or cynical as you are. Contrary to the opinion of many such as you, (including my own brother) cynicism and jadedness is not, in and of itself, truth.

 

And I hope, moderator, that you intended your reprimand for both sides of the fight.

[Opus131]

People in real life are like that.

If you are 15, sure...

[JediQB]

I see the back and forth about whether there will be romances or not in Kotor 2 here, and I am inclined to believe that there will be opportunities for romances. However, I would just like to put forth that for me, the romances were one of the most addictive parts of the game. I looked forward to each time I could chat with Bastila, trying to thaw out the ice princess a little more. I help out at the kotorfanfic.com site, and almost every story includes the male or female romance options. It is amazing to see the diferent types of inspiration people have drawn from a pixelated flirtaton.

 

If Obsidian can work more nuances into romances - such as there being more than one choice for romances, or you being able to affect the alignment of your significant other, that would be awesome. But please don't lose what worked so well.

 

I have confidence in these guys though. I've heard nothin' but good about them (a little kissing up never hurt, right? )

[Darque]

oh... hehe... ignore me then... I just woke up 

 

And here I thought I found a Dev in disguise   

no, and my "not reading and understanding..." bit wasn't aimed at you. More at the fact that people managed to freak out when it was clearly said:

 

it's more like we have relationship quests in K2, which aren't tied solely to romance

 

just means you can have deep interaction with a NPC without going down the romance path

I realize that

 

It's allllll goood

[kumquatq3]

I see the back and forth about whether there will be romances or not in Kotor 2 here, and I am inclined to believe that there will be opportunities for romances.

There is no back and forth! If you say there isn't going to be romances, then your wrong!

[nightcleaver]

People in real life are like that.

If you are 15, sure...

Right. So based on YOUR respective age, the other person acts differently.

 

People are individuals. I wonder if you know what that means.

[Drakron]

He have a point, when we are young we see things diferently.

 

15 years old think they are matured enough and know everthing but lack the life experiance to really be as mature as they thing they are.

 

The old saying "youth is wasted on the young" have a lot of truth in it ...

 

Saying that SW:KotOR NPCs acted on a realistic manner is only true to people that lack experiance on human behavior, none of the SW:KotOR NPCs have significant depth to be descrived as anything but a archetype, none was in any way realistic.

[Raven]

i think there shouldnt be a romance involving the main character cause, pretty much, why would you need a romance in a game? i hope they focus more on the main story, content, and battles instead of romance.

[Vyperhand]

It is frustrating that there is so much in the game that has to be chosen between and we can't have it all. I at least would be thrilled to see them *gasp* push back the release date to get in all the depth people are hoping for--romances, battles, dialogs and banters than see some artifical deadline mean that any of us rabid Kotorians have to miss out on anything.

 

But still, the romance dialogs are usually done by a storyline specialist and not so much a "developer" in the programmer sense of the word. The code for conversation triggers is already present, so the storyline person should be able to do their job without disappointing any of us. One of the larger bonuses of building on an existing engine, I think.

[Elledan Kasra]

I see the back and forth about whether there will be romances or not in Kotor 2 here, and I am inclined to believe that there will be opportunities for romances. However, I would just like to put forth that for me, the romances were one of the most addictive parts of the game. I looked forward to each time I could chat with Bastila, trying to thaw out the ice princess a little more. I help out at the kotorfanfic.com site, and almost every story includes the male or female romance options. It is amazing to see the diferent types of inspiration people have drawn from a pixelated flirtaton.

 

If Obsidian can work more nuances into romances - such as there being more than one choice for romances, or you being able to affect the alignment of your significant other, that would be awesome. But please don't lose what worked so well. 

 

I have confidence in these guys though. I've heard nothin' but good about them (a little kissing up never hurt, right?  )

 

Yup, I agree with you and what you said before. And I am happy (read overly glad) that Obsidian is going to develope the relationship between crew and CP more, but there definatly needs to be a choice in wheather or not you want to romance. So, if we have misunderstood what was said, I place my vote FOR romances in Sith Lords. Er, there isn't much more that I can add than that because you peeps have already said it. Ok, I'll shut up now...

God bless!

[Strict31]

Man. A lot of flak flying around here. Need an armored vest just to state a bloody opinion...*pulls on flak vest*

 

Okay. This is still a videogame. And without some alien technology introduced to perfectly model the behavior of human beings, we aren't going to have any game that shows a character that acts like a real person. They'll just act like characters with dialogue written for them by some guy in front of a computer. If you can get past that limitation, then you can enjoy what is written for what it is worth. or...not, if it's written poorly.

 

If a person feels the romances in KotOR were poorly written, and would not like to see more poorly written romances, that's fine. Personally, I'd rather not see poorly written anything. If the writing sucks, the rest of it won't be enough to hold my interest, romance or no.

 

If you're holding out hope that you will have a romance in a game with a realistic character, that is not logical. If that is discouraging you from the game, worry about something that you can actually change. If you're holding out hopes for well written characters, I'm right there with you.

 

Of course, I may be biased because, for the most part, I thought KotOR's characters were written well. And I have no reason to think that the sequel's characters won't be written well.

 

As to the inclusion of romance options:

 

I have no reason to think, as of yet that this is being ignored. Game romances are amusing, and can be an entertaining facet of CRPGs. I don't feel they're so intrinsic to Star Wars that the game couldn't stand without romances, but at the same time, as the player, you always have the option to love or not to love. So why not include them? I never pursued a romance with Aerie, but that didn't affect my enjoyment of BG. Same with Viconia. But I know people who did. And who enjoyed those options.

 

Why not include the option?

 

 

 

Strictly Speaking