Adria Teksuni Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 From Chris Avellone in the Questions to the Devs thread: I don't like to lock CNPC quest down to romance quests - it's more like we have relationship quests in K2, which aren't tied solely to romance but how much you are an example to your allies and how you treat them. Things like building friendships, loyalties, developing grudging respect or contempt, and occasionally the need to strangle the life out of each other will occur. And you can cheerfully shut them all down and ignore them if you want, though your companions may occasionally lay into each other without prompting. I'm sorry, but I think this is an horrible idea. One of the reasons that KoTOR has been rated the best RPG of all time across all platforms is because of the romances. While I do like the other interactions, and look forward to them, cutting out the romance is simply awful. KoTOR was very inspiring to many, many people, due in large part to the character development that was there when the PC was drawing romantically closer to either Carth or Bastila. Romances are included in just about every piece of classical literature out there, from every genre. There is a universal appeal about them, which is one of the reasons why Baldur's Gate II was such an enormous success as well. The romances are one of the most talked about aspects of the game. The majourity of players love having them in there, and truly appreciate how much they added to the enjoyment of playing KoTOR. I know many, many people are looking forward to the romances in KoTOR 2, and when I asked at E3, I was informed by LA that there would be romances in the story. Looking at it from purely a writer's standpoint, love is the single most powerful and most used device out there. Using Star Wars, the Han/Leia romance aside, the catalyst for most of the movies was love. Luke's love for Obi Wan, Luke's love for his friends, and finally, Luke's love for his father. It's difficult to inspire that kind of devotion in a third person environment like a game without using the romance card. Please, please reconsider the romance option. I truly believe that KoTOR2 will suffer if it is left out, and many, many fans will be disappointed. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame.
arrow maker Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 KEEP THE ROMANCES! They're the best part of the game! The game will be no where near as good without them and is most likely one of the major reasons that kotor1 got such high ratings.
Lohengrin Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 He does say that the cnpc quests arent tied solely to romances. Wich to me suggests that there will be romances to. There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. -John Rogers
VanGogh's Ear Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Yes, the option for romances definitiely needs to stay! For you romance-haters, you've always had the option to just not pursue them. What's wrong with that approach? Put my vote down for the romances.
Ivan the Terrible Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 I think you're misreading him. I think he's just saying that NPC quests won't be tied solely to romances; as in, romances are there, but you won't have a 'I just told Bastila to keep the Holocron so I'm up sh*t creek without a paddle' moment. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Adria Teksuni Posted May 21, 2004 Author Posted May 21, 2004 Perhaps I am misreading him, and I desperately hope that I am. But to me it still sounds as if the romance options will be something of an afterthought, if they're included at all, in order to concentrate on the more non-romance character development. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame.
Plutospawn Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 I'll place my vote for keeping romances too. Kind of along the lines of why fix something that ain't broke. I think the majority of fanfic out there based on this game has been solely created because anyone who indulged in the romance wanted more-- not less. I'm not just arguing for a perfect lovey-dovey romance, I'm all for love triangles, or relationships ending tragically via the death of a main character. Just so long as there's a romance option in there period. But anyway, yeah. Keep 'em.
Ivan the Terrible Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 I'm hoping for romances with a lot more subtelty than the KOTOR romances; ala Planescape: Torment....but still with a lot of meat to them, unlike the Fall-From-Grace and Annah 'romances.' No more in-your-face clumsy come-ons, please. I hope that's what Herr Avellone is implying with his post. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Calan Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 I would read it as saying there will be a lot more in the way of character development and character interaction and quests related to this. I see romance as a part of this, but only a part. To me the experience would be that much more immersive if it even in some small way mimics 'real life'. Yeah, there is romance, but there should also be greed, boredom, horrid fashion sense, loud obnoxious ranters on mass transit.... One of the minor niggles I had with Kotor was that I never really felt like I was part of a group of people. There was minimal use of dynamics between the group outside of the specific quests and the romance options. Even the romance I only ever felt like it was me and the romantic interest - no real comments or jealousy or anything from any of the other characters. I for one would love to see more development in this area and I hope this is what they are intending and doing.
Adria Teksuni Posted May 21, 2004 Author Posted May 21, 2004 I posted this on another board, but I'll put it here as well. Part of the reason for my fears is that the response I quoted was a reply to whether or not there would be romances in KoTOR2. Instead of a"Yes, and here's what else we're doing" we got this instead. As I said before, I do hope I'm wrong on this. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame.
Meshugger Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 I think you're misreading him. I think he's just saying that NPC quests won't be tied solely to romances; as in, romances are there, but you won't have a 'I just told Bastila to keep the Holocron so I'm up sh*t creek without a paddle' moment. That's my impression too, thinking that KotOR II will have next to none romances is taking a bit too far. I do hope that the romances will be more subtle in this game, i like the way Drakron portraited how romances went in Planescape: Torment, nothing's really clear until the end. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Lt. Juhani Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Why do you think there shouldn't be any romances in KotOR II? They work extremely well in KotOR I, Baldur's Gate 2, etc. etc. And if you don't want to play them in these games, you don't have to, they are optional! I think (and I know I'm not alone with my thoughts!) that romances are one of the most important reasons why people love these aforementioned RPGs and continue to play them years after the initial release. CRPGs should be so much more than simple hack'n'slash. In KotOR II, why do you bother at all to program complex relationships in the game, if romances are not an option? What IS a more complex and rewarding relationship than a romance? If you try to simulate real people with real feelings in games, then it is absolutely necessary to have the option to romance somebody - look around you, it happens all the time everywhere! I feel you are about to make a serious mistake by leaving the romances out of the game. Most people won't like it. Not a good start Obsidian!
Revan H Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 I definitely think there should be romances in KOTOR 2, although I believe this whole discussion is down to misinterpretation of what was said about this. If we are misinterpreting, then it's all cool, and he is absolutely right. But just in case we're reading correctly, then I will officially add my name to this list of people who DEMAND romances in The Sith Lords!
Drakron Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Because romances are not complex. They use a "fail safe" reply system and lack depth. I seen more complex romances in FF series (such as Wakka/Lulu) that in SW:KotOR that are so obvious and shallow there is no point to do then, 5 seconds after we see the NPC we already know what will happen.
Titan Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 well i will be crazy bummed out if they leave out the romance in kotor 2, cause in kotor 1 it was the most driving force (for me anyway), very inspiring!! i played for Bastilla. they gotta have a damsel in distress to save, what the hell kind of epic story doesn't have that?!! i'll keep my fingers crossed for a lil love action in kotor 2!!
Delerius_Jedi Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Personally I thought that the romances were the best aspect of the original KOTOR. They were well-concieved, believable(I.E. the characters didn't simply swoon at the sight of you) and thouroughly enjoyable to play through. Especially Bastila's character benifitted tremeandously from the romance plot. She might seem like a cold and heartless woman at first, but when you get to know her, you realize that it's all just a front, that she's really sweet on the inside. The most rewarding part of the game, was still when Bastila finally said "I love you too, with all my heart." to my PC. I thought that was an even more immersing moment than the final fight against Malak. So, please Obsidian: Write in-depth romances for KOTOR 2, both for male and female players(and animate a kiss this time) I just wouldn't be Star Wars, if there wasn't a romance in there...
Opus131 Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Because romances are not complex. They use a "fail safe" reply system and lack depth. I seen more complex romances in FF series (such as Wakka/Lulu) that in SW:KotOR that are so obvious and shallow there is no point to do then, 5 seconds after we see the NPC we already know what will happen. I agree. Plus, Bastila was a snobby b*tch to boot. Opus131
AlexisCaelli Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 The only people who think Bastila is a ***** are those who lack the ability to understand good characterization.
Alyt Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 The only people who think Bastila is a ***** are those who lack the ability to understand good characterization. Too right.
Opus131 Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 The only people who think Bastila is a ***** are those who lack the ability to understand good characterization. No my friend, it's the hollywood syndrome and their failure to portray strong female characters without having to use the old 'b*tch on a power trip' routine. Such boring cliches are Bioware's trademark. What you think is great characterization is just your prepubescent mind getting confused on her polygonal boobs... Opus131
Vyperhand Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Just to follow up, anyone that hasn't voted in the below poll might want to do so. Looks like a majority isn't good enough to get any attention? Repeat of my post in questions to the devs: Um.. no romances would be ultra-bad, given the poll on this very site that showed over 80% of players supporting them and over HALF saying they were critical to the game. Now earlier, a dev said there were not only going to be romances, but romance options to pursue with multiple characters... what happened to that? The Romances Poll
Vyperhand Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 like or dislike the individual characters, how does removing a role-playing OPTION improve the game? I could understand the problem if the romances were required, but they're not.
kumquatq3 Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 posted in dev questions: I don't like to lock CNPC quest down to romance quests - it's more like we have relationship quests in K2, which aren't tied solely to romance but how much you are an example to your allies and how you treat them. Things like building friendships, loyalties, developing grudging respect or contempt, and occasionally the need to strangle the life out of each other will occur. And you can cheerfully shut them all down and ignore them if you want, though your companions may occasionally lay into each other without prompting. Ack! No romances! Yikes. While the rest of the interactions sound great, no romances is a bad, bad idea. His wording was 'aren't tied solely to romance'. He wasn't saying that there isn't going to be any, but that the NPC interactions are going to be based on more than just romance. -Akari
Alyt Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 The only people who think Bastila is a ***** are those who lack the ability to understand good characterization. No my friend, it's the hollywood syndrome and their failure to portray strong female characters without having to use the old 'b*tch on a power trip' routine. Such boring cliches are Bioware's trademark. What you think is great characterization is just your prepubescent mind getting confused on her polygonal boobs... Now who's the snobby b*tch?
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