Woedica and Progress?

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

So, going back and forth in my head about Woedica and her hardline stance on animancy. Now, from a 21st century perspective, it's easy to see animancy as equivalent to science, and Woedica's opposition to it as stifling progress. But then you look at Rauatai, which has the single most advanced military industrial complex in Eora, and you don't see Woedica calling for them to be burned at the stake. 

 

So, I suppose my question here is... does support of Woedica = support of keeping Eora in a perpetual dark age, or is Woedica okay with kith advancing in terms of technology and industry... so long as they don't uncover divine secrets? And, considering the fact that animancy is basically science without any sort of ethics committee or oversight, it makes sense why most characters wouldn't be fans of it. 

 

This is sort of a followup to my previous question about a middle ground between supporting the Leaden Key and supporting animancy, but expanded somewhat to a more general question about... how stupid does Woedica want kith to be? She's painted as the evil choice, and she definitely doesn't VALUE kith lives at all (She goes full nuclear almost immediately), but is that more of a laissez-faire "I don't really care as long as they don't uncover our secret" lack of care or a "Dance for my amusement, petty mortals" approach? Or is it up to interpretation/dependent on her mood? Who knows. 

[handsomenat]

I think Woedica shuns animancy because it may bring kith closer to discovering that gods weren't real but created with very sophisticated animancy machines. She's into keeping the status quo but I don't think she opposes animancy because it's progress, more like, because of what it may reveal.

 

It's also worth noting that beside Leaden Key there is another organization that would like to keep kith in the dark and it's the Hand Occult, followers of Wael. Josh Sawyer mentioned in one of the Deadfire dev talks streams that the Hand Occult is for example responsible for sabotaging works on printing press. Wael is a keeper of secrets. They get rather upset in Deadfire when gods start to talk with Watcher more openly about their nature etc.

Edited July 11, 2018 by handsomenat

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

I think Woedica shuns animancy because it may bring kith closer to discovering that gods weren't real but created with very sophisticated animancy machines. She's into keeping the status quo but I don't think she opposes animancy because it's progress, more like, because of what it may reveal.

 

It's also worth noting that beside Leaden Key there is another organization that would like to keep kith in the dark and it's the Hand Occult, followers of Wael. Josh Sawyer mentioned in one of the Deadfire dev talks streams that the Hand Occult is for example responsible for sabotaging works on printing press. Wael is a keeper of secrets. They get rather upset in Deadfire when gods start to talk with Watcher more openly about their nature etc.

 

That's actually really interesting. Thank you for that insight, and it really helps solidify my choice. 

[Parasol_Syndicate]

I personally find Rauatai far more in line with Magrannic principles than Woedican. 

Part of this is the obvious reliance on guns, cannons, and bombs, but they overall seem a bit more practical and adaptable than blindly keeping oaths and compacts. A Rauatain would betray a treaty if he thought it was no longer binding, and it's not hard to imagine them executing an incompetent commander. 

 

Of note to me is Kana reports being harassed by the leaden key only once he comes to human lands.

[hermamora]

So, going back and forth in my head about Woedica and her hardline stance on animancy. Now, from a 21st century perspective, it's easy to see animancy as equivalent to science, and Woedica's opposition to it as stifling progress. But then you look at Rauatai, which has the single most advanced military industrial complex in Eora, and you don't see Woedica calling for them to be burned at the stake. 

 

So, I suppose my question here is... does support of Woedica = support of keeping Eora in a perpetual dark age, or is Woedica okay with kith advancing in terms of technology and industry... so long as they don't uncover divine secrets? And, considering the fact that animancy is basically science without any sort of ethics committee or oversight, it makes sense why most characters wouldn't be fans of it. 

 

This is sort of a followup to my previous question about a middle ground between supporting the Leaden Key and supporting animancy, but expanded somewhat to a more general question about... how stupid does Woedica want kith to be? She's painted as the evil choice, and she definitely doesn't VALUE kith lives at all (She goes full nuclear almost immediately), but is that more of a laissez-faire "I don't really care as long as they don't uncover our secret" lack of care or a "Dance for my amusement, petty mortals" approach? Or is it up to interpretation/dependent on her mood? Who knows. 

 

I think it's the different science fields kind of thing. For example, Engwithans were so advanced that they were able to create their own gods. They had animats and adra machines but other nations mastered in astronomy, math, military and naval industry, literature and art. If not current situation with gods and the Wheel I would see **** animancy, it's useless, unethical and dangerous field, let's concentrate on industrial revolution and machinery. But none of us can ignore the gods, their status and how dangerous they are. So it's not about supporting Woedica or any other gods, it's about if you support Eotas with his desire to end current world state or not. Taos knew the truth but he opted to help Woedica for selfish (or may be not) reasons and preserved status quo. 

 

Don't get me wrong I despise all gods and Woedica is outrageous but she's at least honest about her preservation tactics. So preventing kith from advancing in this field is only logical. If everyone, every nation will know that gods are false and man-made they'll try to destroy old gods and build their own. Rauatai will put everything into animancy research and build their own god if only they knew it's worth it. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by hermamora

[Tick]

 

I don't think Woedica is supposed to be evil (in the cliche classic sense). Her character shows the temperament and beliefs of dictatorship. An obsession with the power and control she has and a paranoia about losing it, a lack of respect for those under her control. A lot of the first and even second game is asking you whether it's better to have a dictatorship like this to keep people in line /have someone to (forcibly) direct them, or not.

 

So Woedica's stance is that she wants to keep the power she has over kith. She definitely doesn't respect them and I don't think she especially cares about their well being. But she probably doesn't care what they do until it threatens her or becomes a nuisance, or brings kith too close to being equals with her.

 

So Woedica hates animancy because it means that kith could discover the truth about the gods and have more power over the gods or have more power to be independent of them. She's probably not against other advancements *until it has the same effect. *. The moment it does, she's happy to do whatever it takes to dismantle that progress.

[gkathellar]

I think it's the different science fields kind of thing. For example, Engwithans were so advanced that they were able to create their own gods. They had animats and adra machines but other nations mastered in astronomy, math, military and naval industry, literature and art. If not current situation with gods and the Wheel I would see **** animancy, it's useless, unethical and dangerous field, let's concentrate on industrial revolution and machinery. But none of us can ignore the gods, their status and how dangerous they are. So it's not about supporting Woedica or any other gods, it's about if you support Eotas with his desire to end current world state or not. Taos knew the truth but he opted to help Woedica for selfish (or may be not) reasons and preserved status quo.

 

I generally agree, although I think maybe animancy deserves a little more credit than you're giving it - a lot of animancers have clearly done unethical things, but in general the field seems to be giving kith better health and more control over their own lives. Early psychiatry could be pretty icky and stupid, too, but as time has gone on, we've found legitimate uses for even it's very ickiest and stupidest ideas (the lobotomy is still used to treat certain forms of extremely severe epilepsy, for instance; properly done, electro-convulsive therapy has extremely limited side effects and is probably the single most reliable treatment for major depression). To animancy's credit, we see ample evidence that it can do things like help comatose people communicate, explain and perhaps even address the causes of trauma, and with surgical assistance, even make changes to the godlike. See PoE1: Osrya, terrible person that she was, had correctly discerned that the Legacy was a localized, temporary effect preventing the stabilization of souls. Caedman Azo was by all accounts close to finding a limited treatment for the Hollowborn before Thaos sabotaged his work. They can even make improvements to existing spiritual practices - it's noted that modern ciphers emerged as a result of Glanfathan brialgwin working closely with animancers to work out a scientific basis for their powers.

 

I think this is a relevant part of Woedica's whole problem with it: not only can animancy pose a direct threat to the gods in the distant future, it can step on their domain even in the present day. The ability to change one's internal life meaningfully via scientific intervention makes the gods a lot less important.

Edited July 11, 2018 by gkathellar

[Tick]

Well said!

[hermamora]

 

I think it's the different science fields kind of thing. For example, Engwithans were so advanced that they were able to create their own gods. They had animats and adra machines but other nations mastered in astronomy, math, military and naval industry, literature and art. If not current situation with gods and the Wheel I would see **** animancy, it's useless, unethical and dangerous field, let's concentrate on industrial revolution and machinery. But none of us can ignore the gods, their status and how dangerous they are. So it's not about supporting Woedica or any other gods, it's about if you support Eotas with his desire to end current world state or not. Taos knew the truth but he opted to help Woedica for selfish (or may be not) reasons and preserved status quo.

 

I generally agree, although I think maybe animancy deserves a little more credit than you're giving it - a lot of animancers have clearly done unethical things, but in general the field seems to be giving kith better health and more control over their own lives. Early psychiatry could be pretty icky and stupid, too, but as time has gone on, we've found legitimate uses for even it's very ickiest and stupidest ideas (the lobotomy is still used to treat certain forms of extremely severe epilepsy, for instance; properly done, electro-convulsive therapy has extremely limited side effects and is probably the single most reliable treatment for major depression). To animancy's credit, we see ample evidence that it can do things like help comatose people communicate, explain and perhaps even address the causes of trauma, and with surgical assistance, even make changes to the godlike. See PoE1: Osrya, terrible person that she was, had correctly discerned that the Legacy was a localized, temporary effect preventing the stabilization of souls. Caedman Azo was by all accounts close to finding a limited treatment for the Hollowborn before Thaos sabotaged his work. They can even make improvements to existing spiritual practices - it's noted that modern ciphers emerged as a result of Glanfathan brialgwin working closely with animancers to work out a scientific basis for their powers.

 

I think this is a relevant part of Woedica's whole problem with it: not only can animancy pose a direct threat to the gods in the distant future, it can step on their domain even in the present day. The ability to change one's internal life meaningfully via scientific intervention makes the gods a lot less important.

 

 

Well, from this point of view I can agree animancy is important but still it wouldn't first priority for developing society if not current situation. Generally, healthcare goes after major progress in other fields. But still in POE animancy striked to me as unethical because it's most popular and utilized use first invented by Engwithans which is trapping souls. That's why it has to be closely monitored.

Also, yes, cutting godlikes from their gods is the first step to cut gods from the reality, too.

 

And it's especially interesting considering Rekke knows no gods of Engwithans, his people worship some other God. What if gods are even less powerful then we think now? What if those gods are tied to the adra pillars and can't manipulate world outside the net constructed by their creators?

Edited July 11, 2018 by hermamora

[AndreaColombo]

Subbed.

[fortuntek]

Woedica simply put, favours areas of:

 

Law (court, judgement, keeping of oaths, order)

Rulership (both of other gods and of kith)

 

This is usually expressed in the dictatorial sense as has been mentioned. Her primary goal is usually attaining/maintaining power.

 

I think that she, and by extension the Leaden Key, are only against animancy insofar as it upsets the order of those things. Theoretically she would also be against other things that threaten her power of rulership and control.

 

I think an interesting story would be what response Woedica/the Leaden Key would have to animancy which benefits those ideals. Would she support it?

Edited July 11, 2018 by fortuntek

[AndreaColombo]

I think an interesting story would be what response Woedica/the Leaden Key would have to animancy which benefits those ideals. Would she support it?

 

I think she would.

Thaos and the Leaden Key, not so much.

 

My understanding from the first game is that the Leaden Key serves all the gods, not just Woedica, and their purpose is to proselytize, ensure the gods are revered and their nature never questioned or discovered.

 

Animancy is what allowed the Engwithans to find out there were no gods in the first place, and create the current pantheon. Ondra herself pulled a moon on Eora to destroy such advanced knowledge (which vicariously suggests the notion that gods can be killed by kith, just as they were created by kith; a notion the godhammer could also prove—which is why Magran was quick to kill off her faithful who contributed to it, thus ensuring that no knowledge on how to fabricate a bomb that kills a god would leak.)

 

It is only natural for the Leaden Key to oppose it—not because they want kith to be backwards in general, but because it's the very venture that can shake the foundations of what the Engwithans sacrificed themselves to build.

 

Thaos then saw fit to make Woedica rule over the rest of the gods for whatever reason. Maybe because some of the others were growing too fond of kith and/or of their animantic efforts. Anyhow, he started to conspire with her, and she complied because she sees herself as the rightful queen of the gods. Taking her power back is right up her portfolio's alley, and she'd support anything that is. I suspect she'd support animancy that promotes lawfulness, because that's what matters to her—it is, quite literally, her nature.

 

Thaos, on the other hand, would probably oppose it on the grounds that any animancy poses a threat to the secret he's sworn to guard.

[uuuhhii]

militaristic are not progressive

greedy capitalist like vtc are much closer

[Incendax]

I have no love for Woedica, but Wael seems like the real threat. I understand that Wael delights in the process of discovery as much as obfuscation, but as someone who loves discovery and innovation without loss of knowledge, Wael seems like the god of trolling people.

 

To be fair, I also give Ondra dirty looks. She can come off as kind sometimes, but does some really malevolent stuff.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Incendax