Darth Jebus Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Hey, all. I thought I would start a thread that could somehow tie in and address the other stickies we've seen so far regarding that all important dark side, and how it could be improved for KOTOR 2 and even expanded upon. First off, I'm probably one of the few fans out here that PREFERS the ancient history of Star Wars over the movies, and prefer it much more than the post ROTJ universe, which deals with the Remnant and all that. I think I prefer it because I'm such a mythology junkie and I spend so much time reading the world's various myths and legends. I think the battle between the Dark Lords and the Jedi Masters forms the very heart of the Star Wars universe, and is what defines and refines Star Wars, both as an entertainment medium and as a modern day mythology. Thus, I'm geeked as hell for KOTOR 2. I think it has a great opportunity to really expand on the legend of the Sith and give both fans and the uninitiated alike an in-depth look at the darkside - after all look at the subtitle! About five years ago, the official Star Wars website came out with a column that quoted The Flanneled One himself talking about where the Sith came from and what makes them tick. You probably all know this, but the title of the column was "The Architect of the Sith". In there he talked about the last great battle between the Brotherhood of the Sith and the Jedi Army of Light, where Darth Bane was the only surviving Sith and started the Rule of Two. Lucas was quoted as saying that internecine fighting is what ultimately brought the Sith down and that being a Sith was kind of liking having a disease..."the Emporer was trying to get rid of Vader and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emporer." So, basically the darkside is like an epidemic, in that it infects the host, the host attacks the invader and the invader attacks the host and everything dies. My favorite part of KOTOR 1 was going to Korriban. I loved it. You get a glimpse of the Darkside and learn of the Sith Code. So, in an effort to make the darkside more sophisticated and really improving it for KOTOR 2, I thought it'd be kewl if we get to KNOW the Sith and their history on a much deeper and intimate level, and how in actuality they are NOT so evil after all. This would make your moral choice or choices in KOTOR 2 much more poignant and indicative of that eternal struggle between light and dark. Thereby improving your darkside expierience in the game. Because remember...."your focus determines your reality." And with '05 shaping up to be the year of the Sith..with Episode III coming out a few months after the game, I though it'd be nice to have a forum where the Sith can come talk openly for a change.
Mendoza Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Agreed that Korriban was the best area of the game, my main disappointment being that i couldn't take over the academy (though slaughtering them all wasn't a bad alternative). But also because it gave lots of chances to be light or dark, and showed how Dantooine's Jedi academy compared to the Sith one. As to knowing the Sith, and finding that they're not so evil, I'm not sure I agree. Some of the Sith have just fallen from the path (Dustil. Yuthura), but the Sith doctrine is evil and so are those who embrace it wholeheartedly (Malak, the academy master). I'd definitely like Korriban and the ancient (pre KotOR era) to feature though.
Adria Teksuni Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Well, from the demo, they certainly hinted strongly that you will be involved with more Sith artifact type stuff, as there was a Sith Temple a bunch of Sith were trying to get into. Also, it's been said that there is a Sith Temple in the game itself, as well. I also liked Korriban. The entire feel of the area was very well done. It was great actually SEEING everything, rather than just reading about it. Books are great, don't get me wrong, but as the cliche goes, a picture speaks a bunch of words. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame.
JediMasterRevan Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 I thought it'd be kewl if we get to KNOW the Sith and their history on a much deeper and intimate level, and how in actuality they are NOT so evil after all I also think that it would be cool to learn more about the Sith and their heritage because we already know so much about the Light side. But the part about how the Sith really are not that evil? Is killing millions of people such as on Taris not that evil?? I much rather think of them as evil. They should allow you in the game to kill anyone for any reason much like a real Sith would. That would be the best way to teach the Sith heritage. By the way I'm much more partial to the Sith than the Jedi.
Opus131 Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Lucas was quoted as saying that internecine fighting is what ultimately brought the Sith down and that being a Sith was kind of liking having a disease..."the Emporer was trying to get rid of Vader and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emporer." So, basically the darkside is like an epidemic, in that it infects the host, the host attacks the invader and the invader attacks the host and everything dies. So it was Lucas who came out with this idiotic characterization of the Sith. Figures... Opus131
Dead Skin Mask Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 My favorite part of KOTOR 1 was going to Korriban. I loved it. You get a glimpse of the Darkside and learn of the Sith Code. So, in an effort to make the darkside more sophisticated and really improving it for KOTOR 2, I thought it'd be kewl if we get to KNOW the Sith and their history on a much deeper and intimate level, and how in actuality they are NOT so evil after all. Have you read the comics? If not you should give them a try and here is a website you might like. http://www.darklordsofsith.com/ Cheers!
Bless Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 *Shrugs* Well, I guess that clears up that. I'm evil. *Rolls eyes* It must be so nice looking down on everyone from your mounds of self-righteousness.
tripleRRR Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 I don't know, in KotOR the sith are represented as respecting, and desiring power in the force above all, that seach for power and the rivalries and struggles ensue would result in a lot of fighting in the ranks. TripleRRR Using a gamepad to control an FPS is like trying to fight evil through maple syrup.
Darth Jebus Posted May 21, 2004 Author Posted May 21, 2004 I thought it'd be kewl if we get to KNOW the Sith and their history on a much deeper and intimate level, and how in actuality they are NOT so evil after all I also think that it would be cool to learn more about the Sith and their heritage because we already know so much about the Light side. But the part about how the Sith really are not that evil? Is killing millions of people such as on Taris not that evil?? I much rather think of them as evil. They should allow you in the game to kill anyone for any reason much like a real Sith would. That would be the best way to teach the Sith heritage. By the way I'm much more partial to the Sith than the Jedi. My only real problem with KOTOR 1 was the fact that Malak seemed so cliche, ya know? The destruction of Taris was kind of goofy in my book. I know he had the Star Forge at his back, but he just wasted all those resources because he was mad that he couldn't find Bastila. That seemed childish. That would have been like Sidious saying to the Viceroys: Sidious: "Queen Amidala...has she signed the treaty?" Nute Gunray: "One...Naboo cruiser got past our blockade and escaped..." Sidious: (growls) "I want that treaty signed! So when you find her...destroy the entire planet!" But we all know that's not what happened. Sidious coolly states that it may be impossible for "mere mortals" to find Padme's ship, but not for the Sith. He then sends out his SITH ASSASSIN to find her. Annihilating Taris, just strictly from a strategic standpoint made no sense whatsoever. If finding Bastila is what your ENTIRE AGENDA hinges on, then why would you destroy the world she's suspected to be on and risk killing her and never having her Battle Meditation? This actually made Malak LOSE darkside points in my book. Like Drakron said, this was just idiotic, not necessarily evil. Can you imagine Revan doing something like that? Malak was just sociopathical.
sniggy Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 My favorite part of KOTOR 1 was going to Korriban. I loved it. You get a glimpse of the Darkside and learn of the Sith Code. So, in an effort to make the darkside more sophisticated and really improving it for KOTOR 2, I thought it'd be kewl if we get to KNOW the Sith and their history on a much deeper and intimate level, and how in actuality they are NOT so evil after all. Have you read the comics? If not you should give them a try and here is a website you might like. http://www.darklordsofsith.com/ Cheers! urm... there's a lot of copyrighted stuff on that site. now i am not an expert on legal terms but... isn't that, like, illegal? It's very hard to be polite if you're a cat.
Adria Teksuni Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 If they're not making a profit off of it or claiming to be the creators of the copyrighted material, they should be fine. I haven't been there yet, so I don't know. As far as Malak goes, I always thought he was supposed to be a poor tactician. That was why he had to wait for outside interference before he was able to defeat Revan, he didn't have the brains to do it himself. Malak was Revan's apprentice due to his sheer power in the Force and their previous relationship. He was not, however, ever mentioned because of his intelligence or cunning, Revan was. To me, Malak was always a kind of a bully who managed to get his hands on the kind of overwhelming power a bully always dreams about. This is why he was ultimately defeated by Revan, light or dark. Revan managed to elude him and his entire force, get back to the Star Forge, and kill him. If the situations had been reversed, Malak would never have been able to outthink Revan. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame.
sniggy Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 If they're not making a profit off of it or claiming to be the creators of the copyrighted material, they should be fine. I haven't been there yet, so I don't know. dude- they have 2 sourcebooks on that site... not that i'm complaining, mind you i'd just be more careful It's very hard to be polite if you're a cat.
Drakron Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 They have the whole "The Dark Side Sourcebook" in PDF format, I cannot say for the others but really that is breaking copywrite laws. Its no diferent that I rip SW:KotOR cds and put then for a downlaod.
Ivan the Terrible Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 As far as Malak goes, I always thought he was supposed to be a poor tactician. That was why he had to wait for outside interference before he was able to defeat Revan, he didn't have the brains to do it himself. Malak was Revan's apprentice due to his sheer power in the Force and their previous relationship. He was not, however, ever mentioned because of his intelligence or cunning, Revan was. To me, Malak was always a kind of a bully who managed to get his hands on the kind of overwhelming power a bully always dreams about. This is why he was ultimately defeated by Revan, light or dark. Revan managed to elude him and his entire force, get back to the Star Forge, and kill him. If the situations had been reversed, Malak would never have been able to outthink Revan. Same. I've always thought of Revan as the Jedi Consular brainy type, the tactician and thinker who led the Republic, and then the Sith, to victory....while Malak was his/her Darth Maul, the Jedi Guardian with brawn instead of brains. I think it's kind of implied by the fact that Malak is HUGE compared to Revan. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Darth Jebus Posted June 14, 2004 Author Posted June 14, 2004 I guess my biggest issue with the darkside is the fact that they never explain HOW dark lords become evil, and exactly why. And this applies to all fantasy and sci-fi stories. Like in LOTR, we know Sauron was the Dark Lord but why...how? I know if you read the Silmarillion you find out that Sauron was the apprentice to Morgoth, but what about Morgoth. Why are they so-called evil. Why is Voldemort the Dark Lord? Why is Sidious the Dark Lord? What exactly makes them evil? What purpose does being "evil" serve? Because in their minds, they are not really being evil. We get a glimpse with the fall of Anakin, but in reality, life is much more gray. And frankly, you end up pitying Anakin more than fearing or despising him. I mean, those Sand People killed his mom. Hell, I'd do the same thing! The fall of Lucifer in Paradise Lost gives the best example of a tragic fall from grace. Where the act of rebelling, the principle of defiance becomes more important than the consequences. This is the essence of hate. I can't tell you how much a closer look at the Sith might shed some light (no pun intended) on the darkside.
EnderAndrew Posted June 15, 2004 Posted June 15, 2004 I was really disappointed by the big mystery in KOTOR. Two Jedi leave and come back inexplicably evil for no apparent reason. The Star Forge was an uber-factory. Yeah, that explains everything.
Victus Posted June 15, 2004 Posted June 15, 2004 Besides, anyone who frequented the Bioware forums at the time were spoiled by the asses who gave the secret away without warning.
Shdy314 Posted June 15, 2004 Posted June 15, 2004 I was really disappointed by the big mystery in KOTOR. Two Jedi leave and come back inexplicably evil for no apparent reason. The Star Forge was an uber-factory. Yeah, that explains everything. Yes so inexplicable. <_< Defy the Jedi council and participate in a war that forces you to make extremely gray moral choices like sacrificing cities you cant defend etc, pursue dark side knowledge and quest for incredibly powerful dark side artifacts, become stranded on an alien world and do everything in your power (no matter what) to get off it and assume control of a massive dark side infused war machine. It's also important to note it was the use of these dark side creations that led to the strife that eventually wiped out the Rakatans in the first place. Really BIG mystery why a Jedi might go darkside. I think it's pretty clear Revan was very headstrong and thirsted for knowledge even if it was Sith knowledge. One of these things alone are usually the reason a character falls to the darkside in SW mythos. Your Jedi Master if you talk to him about it even warns you specifically about how Revan fell. He was the best and brightest of us blah blah but his thirst for knowledge ultimately led to his fall. Some Jedi think they can handle all the knowledge of the Dark Side and still use it. I think Revan thought this too. He was wrong. Malak was more hesitant and less certain that they could but followed Revan anyway. I rather like that KOTOR doesnt throw every answer in your face and then beat you over the head with it. You can actually figure out a lot of the backstory like this but it requires talking and reading most people skipped. Look at how many people cant figure out the unknown space Revan led his fleet into was the Star Forge location. Or at the number of people that wonder why there are so many crashed republic ships on the Rakatan world.
Shdy314 Posted June 15, 2004 Posted June 15, 2004 Last time I check being chaotic stupid is not evil. If chaotic stupid=mass murderer Id say it DOES mean evil. Not always but in this instance. Your argument is flawed buddy.
Drakron Posted June 15, 2004 Posted June 15, 2004 No, its not. Chaotic Stupid been used to descrive how some people always think chaotic evil characters must act as insane mass murderers, they could be but then again evil sould be more subtable that "evil=killing random people". That is my argument, the fact many people "got it" with that small phase sould mean something ...
Shdy314 Posted June 15, 2004 Posted June 15, 2004 No, its not. Chaotic Stupid been used to descrive how some people always think chaotic evil characters must act as insane mass murderers, they could be but then again evil sould be more subtable that "evil=killing random people". That is my argument, the fact many people "got it" with that small phase sould mean something ... OH I know what youre saying. But the argument evil can only be smart or should be smart is completely fallacious. Just look at the real world around us. I know that horrible real world. Just take a quick peek. There are plenty of very evil people that get caught because they also happen to be very stupid. So YES it is. In fact its almost impossible for chaotic stupid not to be evil. Chaotic=impulsive most likely selfish behaviour. Stupid=committing an act without regards for the consequences. So if they see a nice watch on display they are the ones more prone to take it. I agree. By all means make the main villain a Sidious type character. But Malak is evil chaotic stupid or not. So is Darth Bandon and he's even dumber.
Darth Jebus Posted June 15, 2004 Author Posted June 15, 2004 No, its not. Chaotic Stupid been used to descrive how some people always think chaotic evil characters must act as insane mass murderers, they could be but then again evil sould be more subtable that "evil=killing random people". That is my argument, the fact many people "got it" with that small phase sould mean something ... OH I know what youre saying. But the argument evil can only be smart or should be smart is completely fallacious. Just look at the real world around us. I know that horrible real world. Just take a quick peek. There are plenty of very evil people that get caught because they also happen to be very stupid. So YES it is. In fact its almost impossible for chaotic stupid not to be evil. Chaotic=impulsive most likely selfish behaviour. Stupid=committing an act without regards for the consequences. So if they see a nice watch on display they are the ones more prone to take it. I agree. By all means make the main villain a Sidious type character. But Malak is evil chaotic stupid or not. So is Darth Bandon and he's even dumber. You make some really good point. But, I have to point out the evil that exists without fear of the consequences. That was my point earlier in this thread. If I could just quote Aeschylus from The Oresteia: "Man can not do good without fear of the consequences of doing evil. If the work of man's hand is not supervised by the Furies, that hand will stop at nothing. The man without fear of the law will easily kill, as if by nature, and the city without fear of the law is that killer's playground." This is the essence of hate. If you become devoid of the fear of the consequences and are only acting out of the act of defiance, this is evil in that you are not giving anything emotionally except hate. So this is not stupid. It is in fact passion. And through passion, you gain strength...
Indalecio Posted June 15, 2004 Posted June 15, 2004 No, its not. Chaotic Stupid been used to descrive how some people always think chaotic evil characters must act as insane mass murderers, they could be but then again evil sould be more subtable that "evil=killing random people". That is my argument, the fact many people "got it" with that small phase sould mean something ... OH I know what youre saying. But the argument evil can only be smart or should be smart is completely fallacious. Just look at the real world around us. I know that horrible real world. Just take a quick peek. There are plenty of very evil people that get caught because they also happen to be very stupid. So YES it is. In fact its almost impossible for chaotic stupid not to be evil. Chaotic=impulsive most likely selfish behaviour. Stupid=committing an act without regards for the consequences. So if they see a nice watch on display they are the ones more prone to take it. I agree. By all means make the main villain a Sidious type character. But Malak is evil chaotic stupid or not. So is Darth Bandon and he's even dumber. You make some really good point. But, I have to point out the evil that exists without fear of the consequences. That was my point earlier in this thread. If I could just quote Aeschylus from The Oresteia: "Man can not do good without fear of the consequences of doing evil. If the work of man's hand is not supervised by the Furies, that hand will stop at nothing. The man without fear of the law will easily kill, as if by nature, and the city without fear of the law is that killer's playground." This is the essence of hate. If you become devoid of the fear of the consequences and are only acting out of the act of defiance, this is evil in that you are not giving anything emotionally except hate. So this is not stupid. It is in fact passion. And through passion, you gain strength... "..And through passion you gain weakness." Well at least in the real world, and apparently in the Star Wars universe as well. I really can't think of any scenario where giving free reign to your passions would give you anything but a momentary advantage. Hence, its still pretty stupid.
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