No point in making builds right now when consumables are more op than the whole build itself

[AeonsLegend]

Not for me, I do not play with 4 bots called companions. 

So you exchange permanent bots for per rest bots. If anything allows you to solo the game it's breaking it.

[knownastherat]

In your opinion. And your opinion is worth you know what? The same as my opinion. The difference between us is that my opinion does not impact your game.

Edited June 19, 2018 by knownastherat

[AeonsLegend]

In your opinion. And your opinion is worth you know what? The same as my opinion. The difference between us is that my opinion does not impact your game.

No the difference is that I want my opinion to impact your game.

[knownastherat]

Which speaks for itself. 

[mant2si]

Most of us like use Scrolls and Poisons, and per-rest items, but no one like when single scroll remove challenge from game. No one like skip such funny part of the game if this part present. I believe Obsidian or Modders will make scrolls more unique and less stronger. Now  I think scrolls simple imported  from previous version of the game What the fun to pick pure druid and at middle of the game discover that most of your skills exists in scrolls or potion. 

They can add really unique effect and buffs to scroll to make game funny, for example random spell scroll :D

[giftmefood]

i believe there is a difference between consumables making the game easier and consumables being so strong that only using them instead of native abilities becomes the optimal choice.

not that you need them to succeed in higher difficulties, but from an optimization standpoint its a nobrainer, no meaningful resource cost, unlimited usability in fights and more powerful then base abilities. the problem isn't that you can't challange yourself

the problem is that there are people that dont play for the challange but to come up with great ideas, builds and party compositions only to find out that the most meaningful choice you can ever make in this game is "do i take alchemy or arcana".

 

THIS! Knowing that a simple maxed out arcana/alchemy build will beat ANY build that you will ever think of. It's kind of disheartening. 

 

Why settle for marrying an average girl when you know you have the option to marry the most beautiful girl in the world? I don't get the people who say just don't use Arcana scrolls / Alchemy potions. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by giftmefood

[dunehunter]

Most of us like use Scrolls and Poisons, and per-rest items, but no one like when single scroll remove challenge from game. No one like skip such funny part of the game if this part present. I believe Obsidian or Modders will make scrolls more unique and less stronger. Now I think scrolls simple imported from previous version of the game What the fun to pick pure druid and at middle of the game discover that most of your skills exists in scrolls or potion.

 

They can add really unique effect and buffs to scroll to make game funny, for example random spell scroll :D

Well at least I don’t like to use scrolls, maybe I’m the minority, but I feel scrolls are like a cheat button currently...

[Loren Tyr]

THIS! Knowing that a simple maxed out arcana/alchemy build will beat ANY build that you will ever think of. It's kind of disheartening. 

 

It's like why settle for marrying an average girl when you know you have the option to marry the most beautiful girl in the world? I don't get the people who say just don't use Arcana scrolls or Alchemy potions. 

 

I don't know, maybe 'cause she's smart, and funny, and likes playing computer games? In my experience, people tend to be multi-dimensional. So why focus on just a single quality? Surely the people who's company you enjoy most are people who have many different qualities that you enjoy?

 

Or to bring it back to character builds: why is it that optimization is so important, that it is not possible to enjoy anything that isn't (close to) optimal? Why is that the overriding concern? Builds aren't competing against each other, they cannot beat each other in any relevant sense. One can be more efficient than another at defeating enemies, certainly. But unless you're in a rush to be somewhere, is 'efficiency' really that important when playing a game? 

 

It also makes me wonder: clearly, you don't mind self-imposed limits, given that playing solo is just that; you're opting not to use all the resources available to you. So then why is that different when it comes to restricting your use of for example Alchemy (or using less of it)? I can definitely get frustration about feeling you cannot use certain things because it would be too overpowered. But feeling you cannot play with a certain build because an entirely different build would be better, that I find difficult to grasp. Which I'll readily admit could just be a difference in playstyle. I happily potter about with cooky builds with a full party on veteran mode, the thought of either PotD or solo has never really been a consideration for me. But even with that I'd think: if I really wanted more challenge and enjoyed the highest difficulty solo experience, wouldn't trying to make a less conventional build work in that context fit into that aim as well?

[Boeroer]

What's actually the point of tinkering with builds when any, I mean ANY build can ABSOLUTELY trash the game with just maxed out arcana or maxed out alchemy. It's just plain silly. Obsidian needs to really sort this out.

 

What do you guys think?

I absolutely agree.

 

Scrolls and potions/poisons being way better than native abilities is very bad.

[Archaven]

 

What's actually the point of tinkering with builds when any, I mean ANY build can ABSOLUTELY trash the game with just maxed out arcana or maxed out alchemy. It's just plain silly. Obsidian needs to really sort this out.

 

What do you guys think?

I absolutely agree.

 

Scrolls and potions/poisons being way better than native abilities is very bad.

 

 

i guess the design decision was obsidian need you to use everything to be effective. if they tone it down or balance it lower than effective, i guess then we will need to pray to the god of "dice roll" to win impossible fights? not sure if this is the game we all want that winning fights need high prayers on RNG.

[mant2si]

So the main question - How obsidian will nerf consumable and buff other items, to make game attractive for all groups of players ? For my point of view they should add more unique props on items: Lifesteal, Heal on Crit (to add non-healers classes heal them self), Damage conversion from one type to another, more AOE effects for large weapon on hit/crit

Of course we needed consumables to break accuracy/defenses barriers for high level enemies, mostly for classes which can't use self buffs but nothing more :D

 

[giftmefood]

 

i guess the design decision was obsidian need you to use everything to be effective. if they tone it down or balance it lower than effective, i guess then we will need to pray to the god of "dice roll" to win impossible fights? not sure if this is the game we all want that winning fights need high prayers on RNG.

 

 

There are no impossible fights in the game if you know what to build. Even without using arcana scrolls or alchemy potions, you should be able to coast through the game just fine.

 

What this post is about is how op drugs/scrolls are ruining the desire to make builds. Because in the end, a simple maxed out arcana/alchemy build will beat ANY build that you will ever think of and that's kind of disheartening.

 

To people who are saying why not just stop using Arcana scrolls or Alchemy Potions. It's like why settle for marrying an average girl when you know you have the option to marry the most beautiful girl in the world?

Edited June 20, 2018 by giftmefood

[knownastherat]

Perhaps your desire. How irrational such notion is, is pointless to reiterate I guess.

 

So far you have posted one build, Devoted/Nalpazca ..did not bother with positioning, used both scrolls and drugs, called it "solo" while it was clearly not, and keep repeating "if you know how to build". The readers will make up their own minds about your statements and so do I.

[mosspit]

So the main question - How obsidian will nerf consumable and buff other items, to make game attractive for all groups of players ? For my point of view they should add more unique props on items: Lifesteal, Heal on Crit (to add non-healers classes heal them self), Damage conversion from one type to another, more AOE effects for large weapon on hit/crit

 

Of course we needed consumables to break accuracy/defenses barriers for high level enemies, mostly for classes which can't use self buffs but nothing more :D

One way to nerf consumables tastefully will be what PoE1 did. To make it easy to level initially but to scale the points needed according to the level. Scalar increment is just difficult to balance. But the idea of having more interesting items effects is appealing too.

 

i am actually okay to avoid using OP abilities - I can limit to like maybe level 12 in alchemy? You know, in the same vein of limiting resources akin to solo'ing like what Loren Tyr states. But the thing is when alchemy and explosives are nerfed, they will likely be nerfed to the point where they are useless. So the outcome will be that the option is lost - Either because we choose not to abuse it, or Obs decide it for us.

 

In any case, let's not kid ourselves. The nerfs will come.

Edited June 20, 2018 by mosspit

[heldred]

Potions and scrolls in their current state are BROKEN.  

 

My definition of "broken" usually involves phrases like:

1) ...trivializes encounters

2) ...steals class-defining abilities/traits 

3) ...ruins the overall feel of the game

 

etc.

 

Solution, cut effectiveness in half, possibly by a third for others.

[knownastherat]

Forgot 

 

4) ... mandatory

[1TTFFSSE]

Problem is not potions and scrolls but that the scaling on alchemy and arcana is still out of whack. Just reduce the scaling by 50-60 percent and it should be fine. But in general, it is true that scroll spells should be lesser versions of the real thing the actual classes with those abilities get otherwise it is kind of trivial that say a fighter with high arcana can cast the same spell as a wizard. 

[CountGrishnackh]

 

i believe there is a difference between consumables making the game easier and consumables being so strong that only using them instead of native abilities becomes the optimal choice.

not that you need them to succeed in higher difficulties, but from an optimization standpoint its a nobrainer, no meaningful resource cost, unlimited usability in fights and more powerful then base abilities. the problem isn't that you can't challange yourself

the problem is that there are people that dont play for the challange but to come up with great ideas, builds and party compositions only to find out that the most meaningful choice you can ever make in this game is "do i take alchemy or arcana".

 

Even if it is the most optimal choice, that doesn't make it the most meaningful. If you enjoy coming up with fun and interesting builds and parties, why not just do that? Use alchemy and arcana and whatever if you enjoy them, don't if you don't. Certainly, them being better balanced will give more options for people who don't want their characters to be too overpowered, and I hope that happens. But it's not as if you're somehow forced to use them in the meantime.

you dont get it, propably because the word meaningful is a bit subjective. from an optimization standpoint there is one primary choice: do i take alchemy or arcana. thats 90% of your optimazation. now you take attributes, talents, weapon and equipmentchoices. all of that is the remaining 10% of how strong your charakter will be.

sure i can come up with interesting builds that dont use any one of these skills. they are just **** compared to any build that uses them at the moment - optimization speaking here.

[Boeroer]

I would like that scrolls are not just lesser versions of actual spells, but something completely different (albeit useful). Something that can even add depth and tactical value to a spellcaster. No second Kalakoth's Minor Blights scroll or a Fireball scroll that competes directly with class abilities. Instead something that complements class abilities.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[Loren Tyr]

you dont get it, propably because the word meaningful is a bit subjective. from an optimization standpoint there is one primary choice: do i take alchemy or arcana. thats 90% of your optimazation. now you take attributes, talents, weapon and equipmentchoices. all of that is the remaining 10% of how strong your charakter will be.

sure i can come up with interesting builds that dont use any one of these skills. they are just **** compared to any build that uses them at the moment - optimization speaking here.

 

I do get that, I'm not sure why you'd let that limit you. You are essentially saying: for an optimal build, I have to take either Arcana or Alchemy. My question is, then why not go for a suboptimal build instead, one that uses neither? You may be quite right in saying that you are forced to take one of those in order to get an optimal build, but there is nothing forcing you to go for (complete) optimization in the first place.

 

And if much of your enjoyment of games like these comes from optimization, I would think that constrained optimization (in this case, say, the optimal non-Alchemy, non-Arcana build) would be similarly enjoyable; and would fairly easily address the dissatisfaction from using the same two skills as a core component from build to build. If that increases your enjoyment of the game, opens up a greater diversity of (constrained) optimal strategies for you to find, and increases the challenge, then why not? Playing solo is also a self-imposed constraint, and doing so and playing on PotD suggests a desire to be challenged.

 

It seems a bit like arguing that you cannot take the stairs because there is also an elevator going to the same floor. Sure, the elevator is (likely) the optimal means of getting to that floor, but that doesn't mean you have to use it. If you want more challenge (or exercise, in this case), there is nothing stopping you from taking the stairs anyway.

[knownastherat]

Compared to any build .. 

 

You see, Loren Tyr, some people compete even in single player games. Either they compete against others in virtual achievements or they compete in imaginary competition existing only in their mind. 

 

 

[knownastherat]

I would like that scrolls are not just lesser versions of actual spells, but something completely different (albeit useful). Something that can even add depth and tactical value to a spellcaster. No second Kalakoth's Minor Blights scroll or a Fireball scroll that competes directly with class abilities. Instead something that complements class abilities.

 

This would indeed be neat.

[Loren Tyr]

Compared to any build .. 

 

You see, Loren Tyr, some people compete even in single player games. Either they compete against others in virtual achievements or they compete in imaginary competition existing only in their mind. 

 

Hmm, how odd.

 

Still, you'd think: if a competition is only in your mind, should be easy to change the rules.

[Boeroer]

Na - it's always frustrating if a game's balance is utterly broken. Sure you can circumvent it (like I do) and not use alchemy or arcana - but that doesn't change the fact that some mechanics are not properly balanced. If there would be a chess figurine that allowed the player to reach every field and beat every other figurine with one move you could either remove it from the game or just not move it. I guess most people would say: "If it feels cheesy and makes the game boring and we don't use it because of that - why not remove it entirely from our game?"

[Loren Tyr]

Na - it's always frustrating if a game's balance is utterly broken. Sure you can circumvent it (like I do) and not use alchemy or arcana - but that doesn't change the fact that some mechanics are not properly balanced. If there would be a chess figurine that allowed the player to reach every field and beat every other figurine with one move you could either remove it from the game or just not move it. I guess most people would say: "If it feels cheesy and makes the game boring and we don't use it because of that - why not remove it entirely from our game?"

 

I'm definitely not disputing that though, I'm all for good balance in single player games. I just don't think that not having that balance (yet) shouldn't stop people from enjoying the game, by just circumventing the problem until it's fixed (if it is ever fixed, though in this case I imagine some nerfing is on the horizon). Whereas my impression from this thread is that for some people this somehow isn't an option, which puzzles me.