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The moment you feel cheated and the moment you feel gimped


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19 replies to this topic

#1
Rillifane

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Cheating:

 

Being a monk mostly, especially swift flurry+ heartbeat drumming. Make it melee only doesn't help. Either triggering chance reduced or a CD should be placed.  Any creatures in this game that are crit or backstab immune?

 

Gimped:

 

Druid wildshape: I don't know how to use it when I can do better with just my equipments(both off/def wise) or even bare hands.

 

Ranger mostly: Pet is there to be wiped and give penalty. (I might be a bad ranger player)

 

Cipher: charm/dominate works wonder sometimes, but feel like one trick pony.

 

Rogue: Anyone kindly share how to backstab like D&D do before a combat? I find it really really hard to backstab just rely on sneaking.


Edited by Rillifane, 14 June 2018 - 12:35 AM.


#2
Dorftek

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Cheated:

Being a monk mostly, especially swift flurry+ heartbeat drumming. Make it melee only doesn't help. Either triggering chance reduced or a CD should be placed. Any creatures in this game that are crit or backstab immune?

Gimped:

Druid wildshape: I don't know how to use it when I can do better with just my equipments(both off/def wise) or even bare hands.

Ranger mostly: Pet is there to be wiped and give penalty. (I might be a bad ranger player)

Cipher: charm/dominate works wonder sometimes, but feel like one trick pony.

Rogue: Anyone kindly share how to backstab like D&D do before a combat? I find it really really hard to backstab just rely on sneaking.


I agree with all of it. A small internal cooldown on swift flurry and drumming would allow for greater build variety and more fun if it also applied to ranged weapons. But I believe that this was already done while also making it melee only?

Ranger pet is more of a penalty then anything in this game. This is why I always pick ghostheart.

Cipher is for sure a one trick pony and is imo the most boring class in the game by far.

For rogue backstab u need plenty of stealth or invisibility to reliably backstab. It is however not worth playing around this because that 100% Xtra dmg is not impressive because it scales poorly when u have so many additive dmg modifiers already. I'd have backstab changed into a Raw lash instead.
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#3
Rillifane

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Cheated:

Being a monk mostly, especially swift flurry+ heartbeat drumming. Make it melee only doesn't help. Either triggering chance reduced or a CD should be placed. Any creatures in this game that are crit or backstab immune?

Gimped:

Druid wildshape: I don't know how to use it when I can do better with just my equipments(both off/def wise) or even bare hands.

Ranger mostly: Pet is there to be wiped and give penalty. (I might be a bad ranger player)

Cipher: charm/dominate works wonder sometimes, but feel like one trick pony.

Rogue: Anyone kindly share how to backstab like D&D do before a combat? I find it really really hard to backstab just rely on sneaking.


I agree with all of it. A small internal cooldown on swift flurry and drumming would allow for greater build variety and more fun if it also applied to ranged weapons. But I believe that this was already done while also making it melee only?

Ranger pet is more of a penalty then anything in this game. This is why I always pick ghostheart.

Cipher is for sure a one trick pony and is imo the most boring class in the game by far.

For rogue backstab u need plenty of stealth or invisibility to reliably backstab. It is however not worth playing around this because that 100% Xtra dmg is not impressive because it scales poorly when u have so many additive dmg modifiers already. I'd have backstab changed into a Raw lash instead.

 

 

Guess I miss that swift flurry has been tuned down in last patch; but still I feel kind of cheating using it.  Actually the whole monk skill tree is so amazing and broken at the same time. Lol.

Won't be surprised if further nerfs coming in.

 

Obsidian seems to have a hard time balancing summoning or extra companion; the way the pet provide for ranger is more a burden than a help hand. You have to spam your skills while taking extra action to take care of the pet is not ok at all.  Maybe the pet should have their own resource pool to act as a minor companion; but I guess some might argue that's too op then.

 

Can't agree more that cipher at the moment is the most boring class. Seems to be a supplement of martial class than a class of its own.

 

Sad to know the backstab doesn't have its place; maybe dropping the most dangerous foe(ex wizards...) before a fight isn't a tactic here?



#4
ThacoBell

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I mean, your pet shouldn't be targeted at all. Keep it as a secondary line, and you shouldn't have many problems. If your front line dies, your party will probably follow anyway.



#5
Gregorovitch

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Druid wildshape: I don't know how to use it when I can do better with just my equipments(both off/def wise) or even bare hands.

 

Ranger mostly: Pet is there to be wiped and give penalty. (I might be a bad ranger player)

 

Cipher: charm/dominate works wonder sometimes, but feel like one trick pony.

 

Rogue: Anyone kindly share how to backstab like D&D do before a combat? I find it really really hard to backstab just rely on sneaking.

 

I played a druid last run PoE and carried that character forward to Deafire. I rarely used animal forms in first game except early on and I didn't in this one. It's just not very strong. After the early game it's pointless. Don't bother me though, I love my druid, absolutely lethal.

 

I think the secret to ranger pets is to not use them as tanks/off tanks. They are not strong enough for that. In PoE I enjoyed playing with Sagani once I realised this. I would hold Itumaak back in reserve at the rear of the group at the start of an encounter and use him to intercept enemies sneaking in to attack my casters if necessary. When the main battle lines where established and locked down I would often then run him wide around sides to take down isolated enemy casters and archers in combo with Sagani or sometimes sneak in to chew up an enemy on the end of the line in safety. Merciless Companion and Take Down abilities made him lethal at this. Mage Killer/strike DPS  basicially. Played like this he almost never got caught and almost never died. Haven't tried in Deadfire but I bet it's the same. I think too many people try to tank their ranger pets or switch on party AI which probably gets them killed all the time making stupid suicidal attacks.. Dunno though I don't use any AI at all.

 

Ciphers are either too strong or too weak on the charm front since charms cause such massive shifts in the power balance of an encounter - or not. After Josh has applied suitable dose of his famous "Nerf Master 3000" to them in search of an illusive balance they always seem to promise more than they deliver. I guess they might be pretty good in dual class situation in Deadfire. Didn't use Serrafin so don't know.

 

In PoE Backstab was always a waste of a pick. Disappointing results from far, far to much effort to pull off in too few situations. Having played Eder as fighter/rogue in Deadfire I would say there is even less reason to pick Backstab than in PoE. Why bother sneaking around when you can just saunter up to 'em and slice 'em to pieces? Rogue is the ideal mix-in class with something beefy for the ultimate dual-wielding harbinger of doom, I say.



#6
Loren Tyr

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Backstab could definitely use a boost, but I think it's still useful. Of course especially on an Assassin, who'll want to be popping in and out of visibility anyway and the Backstab gives a nice extra bump to the rest of the Assassinate package. Also keep in mind that you can use Escape without (immediately) losing stealth.

 

I tend to start combat with Eder backstabbing someone (I run him as a tankish fighter-rogue). I typically want him to be the immediate focus of attention anyway, and the extra +100% is just a nice bonus. Once combat's on, I'll usually have my own assassin character Escape to something squishy in need of killing. It's never going to be BG2-style backstab (nor should it, frankly), but on the right build it's hardly a waste of a point (and on eg. my Eder build it isn't either; even if at best it's used only once per combat, it's not like there was much useful competition to spend the point on at that stage). 



#7
Boeroer

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Does anybody know if Backstab scales with PL now? Or was it really a hard nerf from 150% to 100% and that's it? I'm asking because Sneak Attack now scales with PL - so maybe...?

#8
Loren Tyr

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Alas, no. I wasn't sure so I quickly made a level 10 hireling rogue just now, but no joy.


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#9
mosspit

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Indeed Backstab is an ok pick. Not an auto-pick (even less now with the nerf) but it clearly synergize with subclass like Assassin.

On glass cannon build, the gamer would want to disengage using invisibility or enter invisibility to make a beeline to the backline without being engaged along the way. So why not use those invisibility opportunities to add more dmg?

Ofc thats the case as mentioned by previous posters that it can be used at least once per fight for an alpha strike. All in all, still an improvement over the PoE1 version in terms of usage.

On a side note, i always liked the way games like DAO treated backstabs - triggering based on relative positioning. Was wondering whether it was a framework/engine limitation, or just not something that was coherent with the overall game design.

Edited by mosspit, 14 June 2018 - 11:52 AM.


#10
Tigranes

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Gimped? No, not really.

 

Ranger pets do suck, but rangers themselves get some great feats like Gunner and Marksman, they can spread Marks and immobilise enemies, and combined with Rogue or Paladin for example can lead party damage/kills.

 

Rogues in general go well with most things and are simply amazing. With decent stealth you can walk up to an enemy on the edge of the mob and strike; you can also start by firing an arrow or even hitting everybody with a grenade from stealth, which applies backstab; and after that you can continue to benefit from sneak attacking enemies with eligible maluses.

 

Cipher is certainly a bit boring right now, the shred line has become really poor, especially as Soul Annihilation comes in.



#11
giftmefood

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Yeah I do agree with you. Monk fists are the strongest weapons in-game right now. They do crush damage, have bigger damage than greatswords and they hit as fast as daggers.

 

Also yes, the crit infinity loop seems to still happen with melee weapons if you have swift flurry + hb drumming  but it's not as bad as before. Maybe 3-4 attacks in a row. Still needs nerfing though. 



#12
Rillifane

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Gimped? No, not really.

 

Ranger pets do suck, but rangers themselves get some great feats like Gunner and Marksman, they can spread Marks and immobilise enemies, and combined with Rogue or Paladin for example can lead party damage/kills.

 

Rogues in general go well with most things and are simply amazing. With decent stealth you can walk up to an enemy on the edge of the mob and strike; you can also start by firing an arrow or even hitting everybody with a grenade from stealth, which applies backstab; and after that you can continue to benefit from sneak attacking enemies with eligible maluses.

 

Cipher is certainly a bit boring right now, the shred line has become really poor, especially as Soul Annihilation comes in.

 

Backstab with range weapons is limited by the range, isn't it?  If it's still 2m as the backstab skill description describes, I don't think it's going to be useful.



#13
Tigranes

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Mmm. I can never keep sneak attacks / backstab / assassinate / etc straight. I do miss the good old Infinity Engine backstabbing.


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#14
Zelse

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Cipher has some of the best spells in the game all at minimal cast time and gives 20% damage increase to autos starting at like level1.

 

u wot m8?

 

Pets are there to set up flanking not tank or anything else. Maias bird in particularly is amazing (in every regard really) for the bouncing damage rank3 cipher spell since he cant be engaged and you can always get optimal angles.

 

You can restealth in combat with escape or the shadow cloud thing


Edited by Zelse, 14 June 2018 - 09:30 PM.


#15
Arddv

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Monk on crit procs are honestly the only reasons to consider monk multiclass. Besides, they have no built-in accuracy bonuses or hit-to-crit conversion to reliably utilise those procs, and antysynergy with the best current crit class - berserker.

 

Rogue kit brings lots of damage and afflictions to the table. Backstab is mostly for fun though.

 

Others aren't particulary gimped, rather... boring like it was already mentioned.



#16
Dorftek

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Monk on crit procs are honestly the only reasons to consider monk multiclass. Besides, they have no built-in accuracy bonuses or hit-to-crit conversion to reliably utilise those procs, and antysynergy with the best current crit class - berserker.

Rogue kit brings lots of damage and afflictions to the table. Backstab is mostly for fun though.

Others aren't particulary gimped, rather... boring like it was already mentioned.


+10 Int alone is reason enough to multi with a monk.

#17
Arddv

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+10 Int alone is reason enough to multi with a monk.

 

 

Why so? What does Int accomplish for the martial MC? Durations of self-buffs? By the time you get it you have enough resources to just renew them.



#18
Dorftek

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+10 Int alone is reason enough to multi with a monk.


Why so? What does Int accomplish for the martial MC? Durations of self-buffs? By the time you get it you have enough resources to just renew them.

Durations and radius and will defense.
That's 3 boosts for one point spent.
Sure if your a martial class that do not use any type of AoE (Rod, handmortar, Grenades, scrolls etc etc) u don't need the radius part.

If you have so much extra resources so u can keep spamming afflictions and buffing urself without ever running out and u dont care about the loss of dps while reapplying everything then yeah you don't care for duration.

But what if u have just finished buffing and someone tosses arcane damp on u because u dont care about will defense, that would be pretty annoying :p.

Most builds I make have high Int and make use of it. Funny example is high Int + high Alch + barring deaths door potion = immortal for 40ish seconds.
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#19
Zoso der Goldene

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+10 Int alone is reason enough to multi with a monk.

 

 

Why so? What does Int accomplish for the martial MC? Durations of self-buffs? By the time you get it you have enough resources to just renew them.

 

AoE size matters!

(for martial MCs, too)

There are special AoE weapons, AoE weapon modals, abilities like Barbaric Shout, Heart of Fury, Whirling Strike, (not sure if7how it affects Carnage), then there's Paladins. I think the list goes on. :grin:


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#20
Rillifane

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+10 Int alone is reason enough to multi with a monk.

 

 

Why so? What does Int accomplish for the martial MC? Durations of self-buffs? By the time you get it you have enough resources to just renew them.

 

AoE size matters!

(for martial MCs, too)

There are special AoE weapons, AoE weapon modals, abilities like Barbaric Shout, Heart of Fury, Whirling Strike, (not sure if7how it affects Carnage), then there's Paladins. I think the list goes on. :grin:

 

 

And along with +20% fire damage later. I don't know if it's a bug, but the extra fire damage seems to strike on any aoe in melee range, even spells.


Edited by Rillifane, 15 June 2018 - 08:29 PM.





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