The 'Changes for Balance' Thread

[Erik Dirk]

I think where obsidian went wrong with this update is increasing enemy stats at the same time as nerfing. If suddenly you're under penetrating & your enemies are penetrating the game suddenly became twice as hard. Add some nerfing on top and suddenly "my class is unplayable"

Pretty sure a good part of OPs issues are not just because of nerfing.

[Zoso der Goldene]

I think where obsidian went wrong with this update is increasing enemy stats at the same time as nerfing. If suddenly you're under penetrating & your enemies are penetrating the game suddenly became twice as hard. Add some nerfing on top and suddenly "my class is unplayable"

Pretty sure a good part of OPs issues are not just because of nerfing.

IIRC enemy stats were tweaked only on Veteran and PotD.

[Zoso der Goldene]

 

POTD players are a minority. That's a fact.

Not if you normalize by playtime.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Zoso der Goldene

[Multihog]

Because the only point I was trying to make is that >>major overhaul when the game is already released can lead to multi-hour gameplay sessions become straight un-fun or tiresome, when the build you're using suddenly stops working at all and requires you to either struggle or restart the playthrough<< No matter how you look at it, this is a **** move. This isn't World of Warcraft. There is no need to balance the game a year after it was released (looking at you again POE1). .

If your build was based on exploiting something overpowered, then too bad. Besides, you're exaggerating here. There will never be such a dramatic change that one would need to start a new playthrough. Also, the game is easy enough that it's probably impossible to make a character weak by skill distribution only, and it's not like these changes will affect the attributes in any meaningful way. Saying "when the build you're using suddenly stops working at all" is nonsense. Obviously, what these changes aim to do is bring the overpowered stuff in line with the rest, not render them entirely useless.

 

Fine-tuning the balance is absolutely worth it in the long run. New people will still be picking up the game 10 years down the road, and they all will benefit from these changes—as will everybody else who appreciates challenging combat. It's not worth it to leave the game in a sub-optimal state just so that someone's broken build's OPness can be preserved. Moreover, these changes only affect the Veteran and PotD difficulties as far as I know. 

 

The alternative is that PoE2 will go down in history as as something that's otherwise solid but suffers from poor balance and difficulty. Making sure that doesn't happen massively outweighs preserving the full power of those few OP builds that some people may be using in their playthroughs. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Multihog

[Lord_Mord]

 

So...you just proved my statement true. Like, if you died, if you had to pay attention at all, if you had to attend to the game in any way, then the statement "It failed to provide any challenge no matter whom you fight." *isn't accurate*.

 

I'm on Path of the Damned, man. I don't feel very damned at the moment.

 

Also: What do you think you can achieve with that nitpicking? You are not argumenting, you play wordgames.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[Wormerine]

You sound like you have never played a cRPG in your life. Every single one of these games has one or more builds that are either overpowered right from the get-go, or become as such at some point during gameplay, unless the game happens to not give two craps about combat and treats it like an unwanted little brother to its story (Torment is a good example of that). (...)

 

>>major overhaul when the game is already released can lead to multi-hour gameplay sessions become straight un-fun or tiresome, when the build you're using suddenly stops working at all and requires you to either struggle or restart the playthrough<< No matter how you look at it, this is a **** move. This isn't World of Warcraft. There is no need to balance the game a year after it was released (looking at you again POE1). Do you know what happens with most players when the game they play is no longer fun? They move on. I highly doubt this is what Obsidian wants.

Yeah, played almost every RPG there was - combat tends to be crap in many them - too big and ambitious game, with too little brain power and hours to make it happen. Can the game get by with merits other than gameplay? Of course. Fallout 1&2 combat is a boring slog and stupid companion AI was really annoying. Arcanum overall felt unfinished. Torment combat for the most part is avoidable, thank goodness. Those game could be made better with improvement to combat, redesigns and balances. I still dream of a Gothic2 game, were combat wouldn’t be such a clunky garbage. Even so, none of those game are so combat focused as PoE is. And ideally, combat would enhance worldbuilding/storytelling/character building of the game, instead of distracting/interrupting it.

 

However, I do understand your frustration. The game should spend some more time cooking in the oven before release. Luckily for me, I blasted through it before patches, and now I am waiting for more rebalances to dive back in. While I can stand behind an argument “don’t release the game until it has tighter balance” I can’t support the “don’t fix what doesn’t work”. I am quite surprised by Obs approach, as Josh mentioned before how badly people react to nerfs. And yet, they released the game in a state when multiple nerfs are quite needed.

 

I am 100% that Obsidians goal is to make the game more fun. PoE3.5 is the best version of PoE there was and it’s more fun than the previous builds. I know a few people who made a successful will save and are waiting for Deadfire 3.5 (or equivalent) to buy and play it.

[Palas]

@Manveru123:

 

Well, the players, who choose PotD may be the minority, but among them i think the majorit complain, that PotD was to easy.

 

It seem's, that PotD was a catwalk for your arcane knight. And now it isn't. I can understand, that this frustrates you. Especially wheb it comes midgame and now you have the feeling, you can't beat the game anymore.

 

I think there are some people, who have the problem. It would be nice from the devs, when you could change the difficultylevel. Maybe it is possible to programm it in that way, that you can't go back to PotD.

 

Imo the balance changes are a good thing. I like various builds and like to try out. But i feel sometines punished from the gamemechanic, if i dont use certain items or abilities, because some were in comparsion to others quite weak.

 

Ok, in my first playthrough it dosen't matter on veteran after some point, because even without any optimation i could win every fight without any trouble - except the fampyrs and their nasty dominion spells.

[Wormerine]

 

 

So...you just proved my statement true. Like, if you died, if you had to pay attention at all, if you had to attend to the game in any way, then the statement "It failed to provide any challenge no matter whom you fight." *isn't accurate*.

 

I'm on Path of the Damned, man. I don't feel very damned at the moment.

Also: What do you think you can achieve with that nitpicking? You are not argumenting, you play wordgames.

Nah, there is a merit to argumenting with an academic accuracy. Not that I feel like doing research, posting stats and doing lengthy analysis to post them on the forum (and I doubt anyone would be interested in reading them). Not, while I can make wild, hyperbollic claims to make a vague point.

[Manveru123]

 

Besides, you're exaggerating here. There will never be such a dramatic change that one would need to start a new playthrough. Also, the game is easy enough that it's probably impossible to make a character weak by skill distribution only, and it's not like these changes will affect the attributes in any meaningful way. Saying "when the build you're using suddenly stops working at all" is nonsense. Obviously, what these changes aim to do is bring the overpowered stuff in line with the rest, not render them entirely useless.

 

No, of course you don't "need" to start a new game. You can always play a gimped, useless character for the sole reason of not wasting the time you already invested in that playthrough. Better yet: you can go ahead and recruit a custom companion, build him in a way that actually works, and put your PC on some AI script so he at least contributes something to the battle, maybe. That sounds like what RPG games are all about - struggling to perform in combat because your PC wakes up one day and forgets how to do stuff. I can see some roleplaying opportunities here guys!

 

There is also a difference between bringing builds in line and making them purely crap (like Beckoner or every Wizard subclass). This is exactly what I meant previously when I was talking about doing balance with a sword vs a nuke.

 

I didn't realize this game is being developed with such long-term goals in mind, I'm sure Obsidian will be swimming in cash 10 years from now on, thanks to all the balance changes they do for Deadfire :D Unless that is completely irrelevant to the current situation, and 10 years from now on nobody will really give a rat's ass? But that would be preposterous right.

[Manveru123]

Even so, none of those game are so combat focused as PoE is. 

 

Okay, then let's compare to games that actually inspired PoE. Baldur's Gate? Icewind Dale? If these games were released today, do you think the reception would be different? Do you imagine a bunch of REEEEE that they are too easy because a Sorcerer can blow up Firkraag in a single Time Stop or because a Priest/Wizard/Fighter multi autoattacks through Heart of Fury with massive buffs? Now, what did happen to these massively popular games. Were they "balanced" by the developers? Nope. The players did it themselves, with mods. Many years after these games were released, people are still talking about them, playing them, having fond memories, despite the fact that some of them had to use mods for "appropriate challenge". And then you get into this forum and read that BALUNS IZ IMPURTAND! This is just pure BS. The so well-balanced (eventually) PoE was not and never will be a quarter as popular as BG, and 10 years from now people will remember it about as much as they do Temple of Elemental Evil now (nice game tho, would recommend).

[Loren Tyr]

No, of course you don't "need" to start a new game. You can always play a gimped, useless character for the sole reason of not wasting the time you already invested in that playthrough. Better yet: you can go ahead and recruit a custom companion, build him in a way that actually works, and put your PC on some AI script so he at least contributes something to the battle, maybe. 

 

Seriously, what bizarre kind of build are you running that post-patch it became utterly useless? What happened, it's arms and legs fell off and now is just being carted around in a wheelbarrow by Eder from scene to scene? 

 

Also, when you go ahead and recruit a custom companion, might I suggest perhaps clicking the retrain button first? Because if you seriously feel that some ability or build setup has been gimped to uselessness, maybe just change them? Or were you so caught up in righteous whinging that you forgot about that incredibly obvious possibility?

[Manveru123]

 

No, of course you don't "need" to start a new game. You can always play a gimped, useless character for the sole reason of not wasting the time you already invested in that playthrough. Better yet: you can go ahead and recruit a custom companion, build him in a way that actually works, and put your PC on some AI script so he at least contributes something to the battle, maybe. 

 

Seriously, what bizarre kind of build are you running that post-patch it became utterly useless? What happened, it's arms and legs fell off and now is just being carted around in a wheelbarrow by Eder from scene to scene? 

 

Also, when you go ahead and recruit a custom companion, might I suggest perhaps clicking the retrain button first? Because if you seriously feel that some ability or build setup has been gimped to uselessness, maybe just change them? Or were you so caught up in righteous whinging that you forgot about that incredibly obvious possibility?

 

You could always read my previous posts to get answers to all of these questions, but since you CBA to do even that, there is little point in discussing it

 

The wheelbarrow thing sounds pretty rad tho.

[Katarack21]

 

 

So...you just proved my statement true. Like, if you died, if you had to pay attention at all, if you had to attend to the game in any way, then the statement "It failed to provide any challenge no matter whom you fight." *isn't accurate*.

 

I'm on Path of the Damned, man. I don't feel very damned at the moment.

 

Also: What do you think you can achieve with that nitpicking? You are not argumenting, you play wordgames.

 

 

No, I'm not playing wordgames. I'm attempting to maintain meaning and validity in a discussion by challenging extreme examples of hyperbole that are so insane that they cease to actually reflect anything related to the reality of the actual game. Your joke about Path of the Damend/feeling damned is a *wordgame*. My statement about the hyperbole of the line "It failed to provide any challenge no matter whom you fight." is a call for maintaining some sense of perspective in your complaints so that it doesn't become so extreme that it's like a parody of nerd complaints.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Katarack21

[Loren Tyr]

You could always read my previous posts to get answers to all of these questions, but since you CBA to do even that, there is little point in discussing it

 

The wheelbarrow thing sounds pretty rad tho.

 

 

Ah yes, if only I had read the rest of the thread... I'd have known about your constant tendency to pretend you know what others did or considered or were motivated by. I'd have known about your hilariously hypocritical reprimand of Abel to stop trying to (badly) read your mind (I presume you wish to reserve that right for yourself)? I'd have known that you took what is at it's core certainly a reasonable position and managed to make pretty much everyone disagree with you. 

 

Oh wait, I did. Though you're certainly correct on one thing: there is exceedling little point in discussing things with you. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Loren Tyr

[Manveru123]

 

You could always read my previous posts to get answers to all of these questions, but since you CBA to do even that, there is little point in discussing it

 

The wheelbarrow thing sounds pretty rad tho.

 

 

Ah yes, if only I had read the rest of the thread... I'd have known about your constant tendency to pretend you know what others did or considered or were motivated by. I'd have known about your hilariously hypocritical reprimand of Abel to stop trying to (badly) read your mind (I presume you wish to reserve that right for yourself)? I'd have known that you took what is at it's core certainly a reasonable position and managed to make pretty much everyone disagree with you. 

 

Oh wait, I did. Though you're certainly correct on one thing: there is exceedling little point in discussing things with you. 

 

Do you actually want to read the other pages and add to the discussion, or is being a pretentious **** enough input from you?

 

I'm not looking for agreements or trying to rally the forum under my banner. I'm just pointing out that doing balance this way is hurtful to the game in the long run (namely, when it comes to sales, which is all that matters, let's not kid ourselves). How many times does the developer need to mess up your experience before you lose trust and move on?

[Lord_Mord]

 

extreme examples of hyperbole that are so insane

 

I love that sentence in that context.

[Wormerine]

 

Even so, none of those game are so combat focused as PoE is. 

Okay, then let's compare to games that actually inspired PoE. Baldur's Gate? Icewind Dale? If these games were released today, do you think the reception would be different? Do you imagine a bunch of REEEEE that they are too easy because a Sorcerer can blow up Firkraag in a single Time Stop or because a Priest/Wizard/Fighter multi autoattacks through Heart of Fury with massive buffs? Now, what did happen to these massively popular games. Were they "balanced" by the developers? Nope. The players did it themselves, with mods. Many years after these games were released, people are still talking about them, playing them, having fond memories, despite the fact that some of them had to use mods for "appropriate challenge". And then you get into this forum and read that BALUNS IZ IMPURTAND! This is just pure BS. The so well-balanced (eventually) PoE was not and never will be a quarter as popular as BG, and 10 years from now people will remember it about as much as they do Temple of Elemental Evil now (nice game tho, would recommend).

I really don't know what to say to that and I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I don't know how popular BG really is and was - gaming is so much bigger than it was back then. But are you suggesting that BG released today would be better received than PoE? Or that PoE wouldn't be a sucess even if it was released in BG times? Or that devs should care to balance their games? BG cerainly wouldn't be recieved kindly today - an old game can get away with much more than a newer title.

 

This whole thread is curious. Tis a first time I see people complaining about Devs investing time to improve their game. 

[Lord_Mord]

 

"It failed to provide any challenge no matter whom you fight."

 

Firstly that was not my sentence. I just added my personal impression to the discussion. Now if you take that "any" very literary, it is indeed a hyperbolic statement. But this is a forum discussion, not a juristic text. People talk that way, you know. And dying three times on PotD is not really what I would call challenge. But as you insist, here is my non-hyperbolic attempt:

 

In my experience as a self defined average player the game clearly failed to provide an appropriate challenge on the difficulty settings normal and above, apart from very few fights, given the assumption, that players an all difficulty levels but story mode are expected to fail from time to time.

 

You can quote that, nitpicker.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[Manveru123]

 

I really don't know what to say to that and I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I don't know how popular BG really is and was - gaming is so much bigger than it was back then. But are you suggesting that BG released today would be better received than PoE? Or that PoE wouldn't be a sucess even if it was released in BG times? Or that devs should care to balance their games? BG cerainly wouldn't be recieved kindly today - an old game can get away with much more than a newer title.

 

This whole thread is curious. Tis a first time I see people complaining about Devs investing time to improve their game. 

 

No, I'm saying it got (and remained) big without the need to overhaul its mechanics. I'm saying that difficulty is not what makes a game like this popular. It's content. Storyline, memorable characters. It doesn't matter how many overhauls to the mechanics a game receives if the content is lacking. Even when Enhanced Edition was released some time ago, all Beamdog did was fix the glaring bugs and massive exploits. In its core it remained the same game.

[Loren Tyr]

Do you actually want to read the other pages and add to the discussion, or is being a pretentious **** enough input from you?

 

I'm not looking for agreements or trying to rally the forum under my banner. I'm just pointing out that doing balance this way is hurtful to the game in the long run (namely, when it comes to sales, which is all that matters, let's not kid ourselves). How many times does the developer need to mess up your experience before you lose trust and move on?

 

 

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit I see. I shall reiterate using small words and sentences for your benefit: I did read the thread. I grasp the points made in it. I see merit in your core point. I agree with it in part. Your skill at making this point is atrociously bad. 

[Lord_Mord]

 

No, I'm saying it got (and remained) big without the need to overhaul its mechanics. I'm saying that difficulty is not what makes a game like this popular. It's content. Storyline, memorable characters. It doesn't matter how many overhauls to the mechanics a game receives if the content is lacking. Even when Enhanced Edition was released some time ago, all Beamdog did was fix the glaring bugs and massive exploits. In its core it remained the same game.

 

Indeed. Which does not change the fact, that nowadays players expect a balanced game. The most common critique you hear about BG2 is by the way, that it's late game balance is ridiculous. Most people mean that critique in a nostalgic, humorous fashion, but they wouldn't accept it in a modern game.

[Manveru123]

 

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit I see. I shall reiterate using small words and sentences for your benefit: I did read the thread. I grasp the points made in it. I see merit in your core point. I agree with it in part. Your skill at making this point is atrociously bad. 

 

You couldn't have given off a more neckbeardish vibe if you tried.

 

 

 

 

Indeed. Which does not change the fact, that nowadays players expect a balanced game. The most common critique you hear about BG2 is by the way, that it's late game balance is ridiculous. Most people mean that critique in a nostalgic, humorous fashion, but they wouldn't accept it in a modern game.

 

I see. Let me use a more modern example, then. Divinity Original Sin 2. The game had terrible balance on release, and even now it's not very difficult to build a demi-god character. Despite that, the game sold like hot potatoes and received massive hype and praise. Why? Because it's content was top-notch.

[Lord_Mord]

Edit: Wrong game.

I don't know. Haven't played it. Haven't played anything since BG. Selling numbers don't impress me. People are idiots, anyway. I want to play good games. If I wanted to have a power fantasy I would play WoW. so again my non-hyperbolic approach:

Every person that expects from any game, be it a computer, board game or whatever to have a set of meaningful rules, wouldn't accept that in a modern game.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[Zoso der Goldene]

 

 

extreme examples of hyperbole that are so insane

 

I love that sentence in that context.

 

This thread, in one post.

[Loren Tyr]

 

 

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit I see. I shall reiterate using small words and sentences for your benefit: I did read the thread. I grasp the points made in it. I see merit in your core point. I agree with it in part. Your skill at making this point is atrociously bad. 

 

You couldn't have given off a more neckbeardish vibe if you tried.

 

Such a great orator you are! To be fair to you though, your ability to so engagingly undermine your own position really impressed me. You're a hair's breadth away from a well-argued point on the one hand and demented ranting on the other, being able to maintain that fine balance is a rare feat indeed. I certainly wouldn't be able to match it.