So is 1.1 Really the End of Days?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

I think they haven't done enough nerfing. PotD is still too easy on the beta patch (although it is much improved) even without powergaming and that's largely because there are so many OP abilities. Chanters, Paladins, Monks, Rogues, Wizards, and Barbarians all need to be adjusted downward so that every class is around the powerlevel of Priest or Cipher.

 

?  Ciphers are amazing this build, both as a single caster or multi because they have early access to charm/dominate.  Charm, dominate, summons and explosives make every encounter much easier.

 

 

 

There's a term for that, unfortunately: "One-Trick Pony." 

 

And chanters also get an AoE charm effect at Tier IV, actually earlier than Ciphers get Ringleader. 

[amiable]

 

 

I think they haven't done enough nerfing. PotD is still too easy on the beta patch (although it is much improved) even without powergaming and that's largely because there are so many OP abilities. Chanters, Paladins, Monks, Rogues, Wizards, and Barbarians all need to be adjusted downward so that every class is around the powerlevel of Priest or Cipher.

 

?  Ciphers are amazing this build, both as a single caster or multi because they have early access to charm/dominate.  Charm, dominate, summons and explosives make every encounter much easier.

 

 

 

There's a term for that, unfortunately: "One-Trick Pony." 

 

And chanters also get an AoE charm effect at Tier IV, actually earlier than Ciphers get Ringleader. 

 

 

OK, but it still a pretty great trick!  One could argue many of the classes are "one-trick ponies" (see Barbarians for example).

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

I think they haven't done enough nerfing. PotD is still too easy on the beta patch (although it is much improved) even without powergaming and that's largely because there are so many OP abilities. Chanters, Paladins, Monks, Rogues, Wizards, and Barbarians all need to be adjusted downward so that every class is around the powerlevel of Priest or Cipher.

 

?  Ciphers are amazing this build, both as a single caster or multi because they have early access to charm/dominate.  Charm, dominate, summons and explosives make every encounter much easier.

 

 

 

There's a term for that, unfortunately: "One-Trick Pony." 

 

And chanters also get an AoE charm effect at Tier IV, actually earlier than Ciphers get Ringleader. 

 

 

OK, but it still a pretty great trick!  One could argue many of the classes are "one-trick ponies" (see Barbarians for example).

 

 

There's a categorical difference between, "when I attack things, it causes an AoE," and "I have 20-something powers scattered across 9 levels, and 3 of them (all of which do pretty much the same thing) are worth using."

Edited June 4, 2018 by gkathellar

[AndreaColombo]

There's a categorical difference between, "when I attack things, it causes an AoE," and "I have 20-something powers scattered across 9 levels, and 3 of them (all of which do pretty much the same thing) are worth using."

 

Not really a counterargument (I actually agree with you) but Recall Agony is actually a better power than it is credited for.

[Crumbleton]

Am I overlooking some cipher casting abilities (damage?). Around the lower levels as I'm currently level 8, I've mainly been spamming mind blades which is pretty solid of there are 2-3 guys are some lucky bounces but I feel I'm probably overlooking some awesome ability since I haven't tested out much at these levels. Mind you I'm running an ascended/streetfighter so I machine gun out my cast fairly quick. Ive been trying to stick to lower cast times since recovery isn't a big trouble for me using firearms

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

There's a categorical difference between, "when I attack things, it causes an AoE," and "I have 20-something powers scattered across 9 levels, and 3 of them (all of which do pretty much the same thing) are worth using."

 

Not really a counterargument (I actually agree with you) but Recall Agony is actually a better power than it is credited for.

 

 

 

Yeah, there are probably  . .ten, maybe fifteen Cipher powers that can be at least situationally useful.

 

The problem is more that there's very little the Cipher can bring to the party that can't be better brought by a wizard or chanter, both of whom have bigger, deeper, more powerful toolboxes. 

 

The only real remaining niche for ciphers right now is as the dual class for a ranger or rogue, so you can take maximum advantage of the damage boost from Soul Whip and add a little versatility from a casting power or two, and even there, you're probably better off with a buffing wizard if you spec right.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Lokithecat]

 

They simple imo screw this balance patch (apart from Monk nerfs) and I think they did lazy job and we could have done it better as community.

 

 

Yeah, I can imagine this working... 

 

For each 'fix' they put up a post, explaining the idea / direction they want to go with a tweak / nerf / change...  put a poll on it, and everyone can fight over their opinions.  And as they said there's over 100 (or 1,000?) changes they put through this great idea would give us awesome results, in a timely manner.

 

Everyone knows, that on the internet, the majority is always right, yeah?  And that people discuss things without getting all hyperbolic and devolving into the equivalent of slaps and hair pulling...  

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Am I overlooking some cipher casting abilities (damage?). Around the lower levels as I'm currently level 8, I've mainly been spamming mind blades which is pretty solid of there are 2-3 guys are some lucky bounces but I feel I'm probably overlooking some awesome ability since I haven't tested out much at these levels. Mind you I'm running an ascended/streetfighter so I machine gun out my cast fairly quick. Ive been trying to stick to lower cast times since recovery isn't a big trouble for me using firearms

 

No that kind of build is basically the best remaining use case for the cipher -- multiclassed with a damage dealer like a rogue or ranger, and just using a small number of powers for some added versatility. 

 

There are some decent Cipher powers, it's just that their total power list is crazy short. Ciphers have three active abilities available to choose from for ranks 9, 8, 7, and 6; wizards have 7 spells to choose from at each of those levels; druids have five.  Any given priest has a fairly short list admittedly but at least a priest of Skaen gets a different list from a priest of Eothas. 

 

When you adjust those numbers for "half of all abilities are crap," which is a decent general rule of thumb at this stage, the Cipher list ends up really short. I don't necessarily mind there being good and bad picks at a given level, but it's annoying as heck when I reach a new power tier and literally all the best available options are to go back and pick lower level abilities I'd bypassed instead.

[Seroster01]

 

 

Can anyone explain why cleave stance is linked to a fighter when it was one of the few things that made barbarian unique? Also does anyone know if cleave stance and barbarian carnage stack?

They work completely differently? Carnage is an every-attack AOE hit, now 33% of your base weapon damage, in a radius around the target you hit. Cleave stance is after you kil a mob you get an attack on enemies near you (or after the patch, 1 nearby enemy).

 

AFAIK, carnage should proc off of the attack(s) from cleaving stance, there's no reason why they wouldn't that I'm aware of since they're just normal attacks..

That's a meaningful difference, but I sort of agree with AeonsLegend insofar as it doesn't feel meaningful enough. Without multiclassing, I suppose there'd be a fairly good reason for it to exist, but since you can just make a fighter/barbarian these days, it just feels out-of-place.

It isn't meaningful enough that you have to kill a mob with your own melee attack to proc extra attacks, compared to an affect that works for every hit you ever do?

 

I'm sorry, that doesn't make any sense to me.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Barbarians *are* kinda boring actually I'll agree. They do have a decent assortment of active powers though -- yell, leap, frenzy, heart of fury, etc. 

 

They aren't casters though is the distinction I'd draw. Barbarians do what they say on the label -- they scream and leap and hit things with weapons. That's all they really need to do.

 

Ciphers though, they no longer fill the role they did in the first game. They're much weaker at crowd control and due to the changes to per-encounter they have a hard time competing on casting damage. 

[Veolfen]

Well this is the internet, mass hysteria and all.

To be honest they did a great job balancing POE but it took time and what seemed to be questionable decisions at the time.

 

Fighter, though is a tough class.

There are a number of problems.

Firstly people don't seem to like tanks, which is the most natural fit for a fighter. And a perfectly valid one.

But people don't like it.

Second problem, Barbarians are envisaged as the aoe damage meisters, and rogues as single entity dps.

So fighters can't be as good as barabarians with mobs or deal as much damage as a rogue? Nor can they tank because people don't like that.

Obviously that only leaves the jack of all trades open to them. But within that role they can be very good at all those things, and plenty of fun. Poe got that absolutely right. But the problem arises when a particular class or subclass makes some of the others obsolete.

That was the problem with fighters in Deadfire. They had to be nerfed, either that or get rid of rogues and barbarians.

 

Whether it and the other changes are to much remains to be seen.

But Sawyer has a weird approach to balance, where he makes radical changes in order to find the limits, and then he narrows them down.

Can't say I'm comfortable with his approach, it can be frustrating at times, but I absolutely can't fault his results. When it comes to game design and mechanics he is pretty much the best. But it does mean some ups and downs.

And we've seen all of this before in the first game... the hysteria, hyperbole etc.

And because of his approach, we're gonna see a lot more unhappy peeps before the end.

 

Not that people don't like fighter as a tank. I like making tanks in rpgs. But i also like having the choice for my class too.

People don't like having being a tank the only option available, especially when 90% of your active skills suck and being a tank as a fighter means being a meatshield that you send in and forget. 

People who are happy about fighter state are people who don't play it as the Main Character. They are people who like to have a tank they don't have to think about so they can micromanage their mage and/or rogue.

 

 

Many classes can do multiple things, paladins, druids, wizards, rogues, etc....

Fighters even has dps oriented subclasses (actually 2 of 3 of the subclasses are dps oriented)

 

But in the end, his only good skills in 1.1 are discipline strikes/penetrating strike, while stances and clear out are decent. They are the simple basic tools.

 

On the other hand, all the high level fighter skills suck (before there was unbending, not anymore). No exciting/cool stuff for him. Also, it's a problem some other classes have too and it shouldn't be the case. High level skills should be exciting and rewarding, not worthless secondary options.

 

Also rogue are supposed to be the best "dps", but as sneaky ones (also have the option of being kind of groupfighters with deflect/riposte builds) &  while fighter should be the best "duellist", the face to face guy.

 

Why isn't it possible to have a decent 2 hander fighter ? It's a basic archetype a lot of people love in fantasy, but most western rpgs tend to give all the love to the wizards with their hundreds of spell variety etc.... and for melee class to the ugly ass dual wielders.

Also a well protected guy with a 2 hander is realisticly the best type of melee fighter that existed in history, the most effective way of fighting in melee that has existed, before firearmes showed up and put an end to the melee era.

 

So no it's not a problem of not liking tanks, it's a problem of having no other way around with that class while being the least interesting tank to play (selling point of fighter tank ? more engagement slots aaaaand that's it)

 

To finish, a citation a guy made in an other topic about the fighter, so you can see how the lovers of the fighter/warrior archetype feel about it in POE (and sadly a lot of western rpgs) : 

 

"Hi, I'm Lester, I'm a fighter."

"Okay Lester, what do you do ? Fight, I'm assuming ?"

"Oh no no no. This sword? Barely know which end to hold. I just run out into the middle of battle and let people hit me."

Edited June 4, 2018 by Veolfen