Faction's of DEATH, AKA: Why do pirates have the moral high ground?

[Yonjuro]

My current game I'm killing off every ship that's not straight out a deadfire merchant. And then by the end I'll end up killing off every single faction. Not because I want to, but because the game wants my Watcher to get behind at least 1 evil faction and I'm not gonna do it. There won't be enough pirates left to form a group, especially seeing as I've killed off all their boats. The Queen will attack me for some foolish reason, thinking beyond all logic she and he brother can kill off a group that regularly talk to gods, and end up splattered all over the place. The VTC and DTC, same fate. In the end, the people of Deadfire will get to decide what they want. Not a faction, and not me.

 

Umm, "nobody is perfect so all of them must die" is pretty close to pure evil.

 

That exact attitude is what has motivated many real world atrocities; someone has looked at the world as it is, found it wanting, and self-appointed as judge, jury and executioner - always with the purest of intentions.

[PatrioticChief]

Hell my character is so powerful by the end of the game they might as well declare me the emperor of the dead fire. 

[Tarlonniel]

Don't worry, you'll get depowered back to level one again when the next game hits

[Casper]

Don't worry, you'll get depowered back to level one again when the next game hits

pesky gods... how do you think it'll happen next time? 

[Tarlonniel]

You'll trip walking down the gangplank of the Defiant, hit your head and when you wake up, you'll find that your boat has been eaten by a kraken and your steward spent all your money buying an airship to replace it.

[Casper]

You'll trip walking down the gangplank of the Defiant, hit your head and when you wake up, you'll find that your boat has been eaten by a kraken and your steward spent all your money buying an airship to replace it.

thanx... now i'm craving an airship. *sigh* hope you're happy now. lol

[Yonjuro]

You'll trip walking down the gangplank of the Defiant, hit your head and when you wake up, you'll find that your boat has been eaten by a kraken and your steward spent all your money buying an airship to replace it.

 

 And your steward is now just a nose and part of one cheek; how the hell did she even negotiate that deal?

[Tarlonniel]

thanx... now i'm craving an airship. *sigh* hope you're happy now. lol

It'll be an airship that can sail into the Beyond and fight the gods on their own turf and.... now I'm getting D:OS2 flashbacks. Please, Obsidian, no awkward narrated sex scenes.

[Ildun]

 

Yup, that's the strategy I've ended up using in my games. I'm not sure if Obsidian intended that as a work-around, but it's handy.

 

Oddly enough, the only faction leader who doesn't ask my Watchers to do something which I consider flat-out wrong is Furrante. Well, he wants you to deal with slavers, but even if you dismantle their operation (which I always do) he continues working with you. Still not giving him Ukaizo, though.

Btw, it's interesting how people say VTC is pro-slavery, but actually it was just Castol's idea to work with Furrante, cuz he was looking for quick money to fund his research projects. During his trial he can even get banished for that, because officially VTC is against it. It's a good idea to kill the slavers and Furrante beforehand if you want to keep him in his position.

 

Yup, if you read Castol's letter to Furrante, they not really in good term. Castol not really want to involve into slavery, in fact he is not directly involve in slavery itself. he just helping them by providing safe passage for Furrante and get the fund from them.

 

Now I think he might even force to help them by his corrupted superior, Master Kua sounds very influencial yet he insult him in his letter.

[Kesslik]

 

My current game I'm killing off every ship that's not straight out a deadfire merchant. And then by the end I'll end up killing off every single faction. Not because I want to, but because the game wants my Watcher to get behind at least 1 evil faction and I'm not gonna do it. There won't be enough pirates left to form a group, especially seeing as I've killed off all their boats. The Queen will attack me for some foolish reason, thinking beyond all logic she and he brother can kill off a group that regularly talk to gods, and end up splattered all over the place. The VTC and DTC, same fate. In the end, the people of Deadfire will get to decide what they want. Not a faction, and not me.

 

Umm, "nobody is perfect so all of them must die" is pretty close to pure evil.

 

That exact attitude is what has motivated many real world atrocities; someone has looked at the world as it is, found it wanting, and self-appointed as judge, jury and executioner - always with the purest of intentions.

 

Nobody is perfect? These factions aren't Justin Bieber fans or love pineapple on pizza kind of evil. It doesn't matter if you ignore all of them or not, they'll all want to attack you once you reach the end unless you've taken their side, it just depends on certain calculations which gets to do the honor. If the game allowed, they would all line up and attack you if they could. So 

[KDubya]

I think the Royal DeadFire Company is the best choice for the DeadFire.

 

• Order and stability
• assimilation into a cosmopolitan empire
• everyone protected under the Law
• Is there to stay

The locals will be assimilated into the empire and become equal citizens, not slaves or princes depending upon the randomness of birth but have a true meritocracy where ability and drive make the difference.

 

The Huana are bad as they are weak, petty monarchists with a caste system that enslaves most of their population under the guise of 'culture and tradition'. They are stone age savages who need to be dragged into the modern world. Not to mention that they are racist against anyone not Island Aumaua from the DeadFire.

 

The Valians are only there to strip mine the place and move on to the next profit center.

 

The Pirates rape and pillage all they come across, which the game does a poor job of actually showing pirates as the bastards they are rather than some sort of libertarian Captain Jack Sparrow.

 

I can't understand how people here equate the Royal DeadFire Company with fascists. Civilizing the wastelands of the world is how civilization spreads.

[Aramintai]

The locals will be assimilated into the empire and become equal citizens, not slaves or princes depending upon the randomness of birth but have a true meritocracy where ability and drive make the difference.

Except that locals will lose their culture and self identity under RDC. Just look around, there are plenty of examples there already. Also, they did that with all other weaker nations whom they've conquered - Rauatai is a militaristic war machine that grinds everything into same looking apathetic "goo".

The Valians are only there to strip mine the place and move on to the next profit center.

Not true if you choose director Castol. They'll stay, establish permanent settlements, improve trade and build a research academy at Ukaizo for animancers all over the world to study it.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Aramintai

[KDubya]

 

The locals will be assimilated into the empire and become equal citizens, not slaves or princes depending upon the randomness of birth but have a true meritocracy where ability and drive make the difference.

Except that locals will lose their culture and self identity under RDC. Just look around, there are plenty of examples there already. Also, they did that with all other weaker nations whom they've conquered - Rauatai is a militaristic war machine that grinds everything into same looking apathetic "goo".

The Valians are only there to strip mine the place and move on to the next profit center.

Not true if you choose director Castol. They'll stay, establish permanent settlements, improve trade and build a research academy at Ukaizo for animancers all over the world to study it.

 

 

Who cares if the locals lose their culture and identity?

 

Not all cultures are equal and an oppressive caste system pales in comparison to a meritocracy like Rauitai. 

 

Castrol was OK with slave trading which is hard to spin as being good. The Valians also were down with terrorism (blowing up the powder storage). The Royal DeadFire Company just wants a coup and takes care of the DeadFire better.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

So tonight I finally talked to the Faction leaders to figure out what they wanted me to do.  I knew they would want me to do something against the other factions, but I wasn't sure what just yet.  Maybe the Huana will want me to steal some documents from the VTC to prove they are doing illegal activity?  Maybe the VTC will want me to do some sort of espionage to make it look like Ruatai is planning a hostile take over on the Huana and turn them on each other?  Maybe Ruatai wants me to do the same only to the VTC?

 

Nope.

 

Two of them want me to blow up a freaking powder store, which will kill dozens of innocent bystanders if not blow up the majority of a city sector.  They also don't seem to overly care about the innocent dead people, even if some of them are their own people??!???!?

 

The other wants me to become a hit man and kill the Huana royal family, while they also bombard a city sector as a distraction.  Likely killing innocent bystanders again.

 

What do the dirty, dishonorable, scum of the earth, pirate sleeze want?  Kill other pirates, take out a crew of undead killers that are plaguing the seas.  Wait what?

 

Seriously, how is Aeldys the morally superior faction leader?  She is anti slavery (unlike the VTC and Furrante), not a racist (unlike the Huana), never asks you to assassinate anyone other than Furrante (unlike Ruatai), and hilariously she and Furrante are the only two faction choices that don't involve something that kills innocent civilians.  What is worse, is despite being a murderous pirate, she is also the only honest faction leader with you and herself.  Everyone else is pretending to be in it for the "good of their people", maybe for Ruatai it is true in the worst way, but it sure as heck is not true for the Huana, VTC, or Furrante.  Aeldys at least says "nope in it for myself and the booty".

 

I liked the factions much better in this game, and I appreciate how their are gray areas with all of them.  But did they all have to turn into ruthless murderers, ends justify the means loons, slavery lovers, and racists at the end game?  They went from grays to solid black.  Except for the self declared pirate who just wants to kill, plunder, and have fun.  They are just really dark grey.

 

 

Yeah, there's a strong, clear argument that the pirates are the most moral faction. Every other faction is functionally doing the same thing to at least some group of innocents; even the Huana are preying on the Roparu -- but the pirates are just the most honest and straightforward about it.

 

The pirates at least they're responsible to a constituency.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Taevyr]

 

 

The locals will be assimilated into the empire and become equal citizens, not slaves or princes depending upon the randomness of birth but have a true meritocracy where ability and drive make the difference.

Except that locals will lose their culture and self identity under RDC. Just look around, there are plenty of examples there already. Also, they did that with all other weaker nations whom they've conquered - Rauatai is a militaristic war machine that grinds everything into same looking apathetic "goo".

The Valians are only there to strip mine the place and move on to the next profit center.

Not true if you choose director Castol. They'll stay, establish permanent settlements, improve trade and build a research academy at Ukaizo for animancers all over the world to study it.

 

 

Who cares if the locals lose their culture and identity?

 

Not all cultures are equal and an oppressive caste system pales in comparison to a meritocracy like Rauitai. 

 

Castrol was OK with slave trading which is hard to spin as being good. The Valians also were down with terrorism (blowing up the powder storage). The Royal DeadFire Company just wants a coup and takes care of the DeadFire better.

 

 

I personally agree that RDC is the best of the bunch of evils, but you can hardly object to Vailian "terrorism" while the RDC coup involves bombing the market district and slaughtering your way through the palace. They're arguably best for the region, but they're just as willing to get dirty as any other faction.

 

Also, concerning the permanent Vailian settlements: does it mention whether those are exclusively Vailian, or do they also incorporate the natives where possible?

[Aramintai]

Who cares if the locals lose their culture and identity?

 

Not all cultures are equal and an oppressive caste system pales in comparison to a meritocracy like Rauitai. 

 

Castrol was OK with slave trading which is hard to spin as being good. The Valians also were down with terrorism (blowing up the powder storage). The Royal DeadFire Company just wants a coup and takes care of the DeadFire better.

 

Well, you clearly seem to be fine with it. But many people aren't. And when I talk about culture and identity I don't mean only the backward social system they have, I also mean their history, clothes, language, etc. If you talk to some of the people they converted into their "machine" you can see that descendants from those nations who were conquered don't remember and don't care much for what was before, why their fathers fought for their freedom. They were all assimilated completely, nothing unique about them remains. The Huana are also being assimilated in RDC outposts - they are taught what to wear and what to say, how to act as a Rauataian. RDC doesn't care that locals don't like it, they just impose their way of life on locals, discarding any foreign culture and history as something inferior.

 

Huana's caste system may be backward, but with invasion of so many foreign cultures they could have reformed it themselves one day following an example, not a forced whip. And saying any culture is inferior to another is just very condescending and conceited.

 

Blowing up a powder house or killing a political leader of the whole region - both are crimes no matter how you look at it. But at least in case of RDC it is not necessary - there is a way to avoid doing that by declining RDC's offer to kill the Queen. RDC's inability to settle things diplomatically and resorting to numerous assassinations of political figures is also an act of terrorism. And they're not doing it for some higher cause for all people of Deadfire, they're doing it for them - for Rauatai to have a bread basket and another conquered land for their people.

 

And while I don't admire Castol for his half-assed decision to make a quick buck by dealing with Furrante, I admire his desire for advancement of progress - he needed the money to fund animancy research, but his superiors only cared for adra mining and were stingy with their funding. With RDC in charge of Ukaizo slavery problem won't be an issue anymore, because money will then be flowing abundantly.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Aramintai

[Yonjuro]

 

 

My current game I'm killing off every ship that's not straight out a deadfire merchant. And then by the end I'll end up killing off every single faction. Not because I want to, but because the game wants my Watcher to get behind at least 1 evil faction and I'm not gonna do it. There won't be enough pirates left to form a group, especially seeing as I've killed off all their boats. The Queen will attack me for some foolish reason, thinking beyond all logic she and he brother can kill off a group that regularly talk to gods, and end up splattered all over the place. The VTC and DTC, same fate. In the end, the people of Deadfire will get to decide what they want. Not a faction, and not me.

 

Umm, "nobody is perfect so all of them must die" is pretty close to pure evil.

 

That exact attitude is what has motivated many real world atrocities; someone has looked at the world as it is, found it wanting, and self-appointed as judge, jury and executioner - always with the purest of intentions.

 

Nobody is perfect? These factions aren't Justin Bieber fans or love pineapple on pizza kind of evil. It doesn't matter if you ignore all of them or not, they'll all want to attack you once you reach the end unless you've taken their side, it just depends on certain calculations which gets to do the honor. If the game allowed, they would all line up and attack you if they could. So 

 

 

So, if you decide to preemptively murder everybody in all of the factions,  you can't claim any kind of moral high ground. You've become the worse than all of them (though you do get some points back for recognizing that pineapple doesn't belong on pizza, so there's that at least).

[Aramintai]

Also, concerning the permanent Vailian settlements: does it mention whether those are exclusively Vailian, or do they also incorporate the natives where possible?

Incorporated, examples - Tikawara, Port Maje. Vailians don't really care for assimilation or segregation like other factions - all they care about is trade and they know that trade always brings people closer together.

[Tagaziel]

Well, you clearly seem to be fine with it. But many people aren't. And when I talk about culture and identity I don't mean only the backward social system they have, I also mean their history, clothes, language, etc. If you talk to some of the people they converted into their "machine" you can see that descendants from those nations who were conquered don't remember and don't care much for what was before, why their fathers fought for their freedom. They were all assimilated completely, nothing unique about them remains. The Huana are also being assimilated in RDC outposts - they are taught what to wear and what to say, how to act as a Rauataian. RDC doesn't care that locals don't like it, they just impose their way of life on locals, discarding any foreign culture and history as something inferior.

While I generally like your posts, this stood out to me: You are adopting a very modern approach, where the study of history is popular (if underappreciated) and access to knowledge is easy, completely ignoring the fact that Eora is at a different point in time. Most people won't remember or care for what was before regardless of whose flag flies over the ramparts of the local castle, because they're preoccupied with survival: Subsistence farming, back-breaking labor, and so on and so forth. Hell, the Huana can barely cobble together a version of their history that isn't 95% myth because of a lack of written sources. Rauatai might actually reinvigorate researhc, since that's where they all originate from.

 

Huana's caste system my be backward, but with invasion of so many foreign cultures they could have reformed it themselves one day following an example, not a forced whip. And saying any culture is inferior to another is just very condescending and conceited.

 

The Huana caste system is certainly terrifyingly regressive and lacks anything even remotely resembling humanity, but that's just me, I guess, being condescending and conceited to a culture that arbitrarily sentences entire populations to exploitation and starvation.

 

Blowing up a powder house or killing a political leader of the whole region - both are crimes no matter how you look at it. But at least in case of RDC it is not necessary - there is a way to avoid doing that by declining RDC's offer to kill the Queen. RDC's inability to settle things diplomatically and resorting to numerous assassinations of political figures is also an act of terrorism. And they're not doing it for some higher cause for all people of Deadfire, they're doing it for them - for Rauatai to have a bread basket and another conquered land for their people.

Rauatai is an empire like the British Empire, news at 11.

[Yonjuro]

 

Huana's caste system my be backward, but with invasion of so many foreign cultures they could have reformed it themselves one day following an example, not a forced whip. And saying any culture is inferior to another is just very condescending and conceited.

 

 

 

 Why do you say that? Surely you can invent two fictional cultures  one of which is inferior to another in any way you care to measure, yes? 

 

 Given two cultures, we could argue about the measurements and how to weight their combination - that part is subjective - but if we agree on what to measure, then there is an objective truth about how two cultures stack up w.r.t. a measurement.

[Aramintai]

Btw, just because pirates don't give a **** about anything I don't think they have any higher moral ground than other factions. They're pirates, they do pretty gruesome things all the time - plundering villages, outposts and merchant ships. They disrupt regional economy and don't bring anything beneficial in return. Both their leaders have quite a number of nasty things done behind their belts.

So yeah, they're not as involved in faction wars because they don't have any high moral goals, their only goal is to plunder everything they can and screw everybody else. It's especially evident at Ukaizo - they'd lock it up, potentially dooming the whole world who won't be able to study and fix the Wheel, just so they can be the only ones to plunder its riches.

Personally, I don't see anything worthy in them and I hope they all get exterminated or transformed into honest businesses when order ascends in the region.

[Aramintai]

While I generally like your posts, this stood out to me: You are adopting a very modern approach

And that is bad? It's actually terrifying to know how much of Earth's rich culture and history was lost through the ages because of wars and conquest, and only now is being rediscovered. And I wouldn't wish any nation to forget itself, because it seems very important for us human beings. Just look how even the smallest minorities fight for their right to have a sense of identity - most of the modern conflicts rage on today from denying people that right.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

Huana's caste system my be backward, but with invasion of so many foreign cultures they could have reformed it themselves one day following an example, not a forced whip. And saying any culture is inferior to another is just very condescending and conceited.

 

The Huana caste system is certainly terrifyingly regressive and lacks anything even remotely resembling humanity, but that's just me, I guess, being condescending and conceited to a culture that arbitrarily sentences entire populations to exploitation and starvation.

 

 

 

 Exactly. The Huana aren't just backward, their culture is toxic for their lowest caste. We witness a leader attempting to torture a confession from an innocent lower caste person so he can execute him for a crime he didn't commit. The lower classes give everything they have to the leaders who give them back crumbs (if there are any crumbs left over to give back). Obsidian is trying to dismantle the Noble Savage myth with the Huana.

 

 All of the factions have major upsides and major downsides - the question is what do you (the player) value and what are willing to overlook to get what you value.

[Taevyr]

 

Blowing up a powder house or killing a political leader of the whole region - both are crimes no matter how you look at it. But at least in case of RDC it is not necessary - there is a way to avoid doing that by declining RDC's offer to kill the Queen. RDC's inability to settle things diplomatically and resorting to numerous assassinations of political figures is also an act of terrorism. And they're not doing it for some higher cause for all people of Deadfire, they're doing it for them - for Rauatai to have a bread basket and another conquered land for their people.

 

The main reason Rauatai is in the Deadfire is 1) Their homeland lacks the natural resources necessary to sustain its population, as can be seen by the amounts of food sent to Rauatai in the shipping manifests in Hasongo; and 2) the chance to, after several millenia of seeing towns, fields and crops regularly wiped out by the neverending storms of Rauatai, put an end to those by taking over Ondra's Mortar. The only time Atsura sounds genuine is when he talks about the latter, and i'm still impressed with the passion Hazanui Karu's voice actress manages to put in her speech involving that.

 

They're definitely out there for their own gain, but I'd definitely call their goal a worthy one as well.

 

Also, the only way you avoid doing the Vailians' dirty work in the endgame is through an exploit, since you probably weren't considering to actually join forces with the RDC. It's well thought out, but not exactly a good reason to say the Vailians are better. (Though i apologize if my assumption here is incorrect)

 

 

 

Huana's caste system my be backward, but with invasion of so many foreign cultures they could have reformed it themselves one day following an example, not a forced whip. And saying any culture is inferior to another is just very condescending and conceited.

 

 

 Why do you say that? Surely you can invent two fictional cultures  one of which is inferior to another in any way you care to measure, yes? 

 

 Given two cultures, we could argue about the measurements and how to weight their combination - that part is subjective - but if we agree on what to measure, then there is an objective truth about how two cultures stack up w.r.t. a measurement.

 

I wouldn't say that one culture can be inferior to another, but one can definitely be preferable to another. You can't objectively start "ranking" cultures, but I doubt many would prefer living in the Huana culture over the Vailian or Rauataian one.

 

Also, cultures always change, evolve and disappear, though the hard core usually remains the same. Huana culture would probably change immensely if they're unified under Ukaizo and a single queen for the first time in millenia, and the Principi are only Vailian in name anymore, Furrante literally being "the last marcesco". Hell, in our history an argument during the confederate war was that the north was trying to destroy southern culture, and the romans considered slavery a key part of their culture.

 

Considering how deeply the caste system is ingrained in among the Huana, however, I don't see them stepping away from it unless an outside force provides opportunity to do so, as seen on Sayuka. It's also virtually impossible to stamp out a culture completely in that day and age, especially when willingly incorporating its people among your own: the Roman empire is an excellent example of how cultures got incorporated into the empire in various ways, often to the chagrin of so-called "Pure Romans". Meanwhile, the british empire never seriously attempted to make the indian "territories" british as they only needed to be profitable, which is arguably worse.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Taevyr

[Yonjuro]

 

While I generally like your posts, this stood out to me: You are adopting a very modern approach

And that is bad? It's actually terrifying to know how much of Earth's rich culture and history was lost through the ages because of wars and conquest, and only now is being rediscovered. And I wouldn't wish any nation to forget itself, because it seems very important for us human beings. Just look how even the smallest minorities fight for their right to have a sense of identity - most of the modern conflicts rage on today from denying people that right.

 

 

 Well, there are examples of people willing to kill to maintain a culture, certainly, but most of the violent conflict in the world today is one group of thugs trying to best another group of thugs - not oppressed cultures trying to maintain their beautiful traditions against oppressors.