DrSpock

I wish this game just had the real lightsaber colors, green, blue, purple, and red. Maybe yellow, since they added it for the 1st game. I really dislike how the EU just allows any color of the rainbow to be a lightsaber. It's cheesy.

Asking about the future only made the ending all the more tacky and worse for me. Why should Kriea all of a sudden know exactly what happens in the future? I think it was just a pathetic way to give closure to the game which failed miserabley.

I wouldn't be surprised at all. Now that I've played the game a few times, I can honestly say I like it. I've had a lot of fun playing it; however, it just doesn't compare to the first game. There are some exceptions of course -- I happen to think "Darth Treya" (i.e. Kreia) is one of the most interesting characters out of either game, and for that matter one of the most interesting Sith Lords in the entire Star Wars genre. She is like an ancient female predescessor to Darth Sidious (Emporer Palpatine). I also happen to think that the gameplay, prestige classes, and the ability to train your party members as Jedi/Sith are significant gameplay improvements. All that being said, none of this is enough to tip the balance in this new game's direction. It is true that Lucas borrowed from "Flash Gordon" and "Hidden Fortress", but for anyone who has seen these for what they were, its obviously more of a tribute to both of these than intellectual theft. For that matter, Lucas took those story elements farther. (Note: He did it with well written, properly punctuated sentences comprising properly composed paragraphs as well. Period.). I don't want to spend too much time on the exclusive ad hominem use of the term "hack" in respect to Lucas or his masterwork, but its obvious that the story of the "Kotor2: The Sith Lords" itself, by the very nature of taking place in the "Star Wars" universe and relying heavily on concepts such as "Jedi", "Sith", "The Force", etc., is at least as much of a "hack" of the Lucas fantasyworld we have all grown to love as Lucas' originally titled "Journal of the Whills" was to "Hidden Fortress" and/or "Flash Gordon". My advice to each and every gamer who is trying both games is this: if you want the most fun out of this experience, don't turn it into a tech version of the cola wars, or for that matter, a tech version of male "appendage" envy. (w00t) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm glad someone else on this forum isn't completely hypocritical in regards to insulting Lucas. As for that person that continues to insult Lucas, he did do Star Wars in the style of those things you mentioned, and he openly says that. He also says he wanted to make a modern day myth, and he certainly succeeded in doing so. He wrote The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, having "help" from two other people is simply a result of his being able to afford a helping hand due to the success of the original. If he is such a "hack" as you put it, then how did he lead to the creation of not 1, but 2, of the most loved adventure series of all time. That's right, Star Wars and Indiana Jones are two of the most hugely successful and popular trilogies ever, and both would have never happened but for him. It is simple logic. And as for Episode 1 and 2, it is kind of arrogant to assume that everyone shares your views that they were terrible. Let's face it, no matter how they turned out, they couldn't have lived up to the original series, because they do not have the same cast, and because nothing can compare to a story we were captivated with as children to now when we are adults. I agree, Episode 1 was definitely weaker than it should have been, but I think Episode 2 lived up to expectations, and given what the story HAD to be, it did a great job of it.

I didn't back up my opinion? Did you even pay attention to what I said? I don't need to do an indepth analysis of the plot line to say that it is silly to call Vrook a Sith Lord. You know, maybe you are right, maybe he is, maybe Yoda is too then because Yoda is a little arrogant himself. After all Anakin shows all the signs of going to the dark side and Yoda doesn't even see because he is so absorbed with himself. lol Some of you just overanalysis this waaaayyyy to much. Like I said, which supports my viewpoint completely, just exhibiting some flaws doesn't make you a servant of the darkside! What is so hard to understand about what I am saying? Jedi are not Gods, as shown in this game, and as Jolee shows you in the first one. They make mistakes, and they have flaws like everyone else. There is a huge difference between having a few flaws, and being a Sith Lord. Sith Lords are the apex of evil. They treat life with no respect and feel no remorse for killing millions upon millions of people. A Jedi holds life sacred above all things. Just because Vrook exhibits some arrogance does not make him anywhere close to being a Sith Lord. And, he does not hold a grudge against anyone. He is actually much more intuitive than the other Jedi because in the 1st game he has a feeling you could turn back to the dark side, and in this game he has a similar feeling. This isn't a grudge, its just being cautious. What some of you are saying is that simply because he is arrogant, he is a Sith Lord. So basically, a logical extent of that would be then that Vrook would have no problem killing people and slaughtering thousands of innocents if it suited his goals. But now I'll bet you say that is exactly what he did do by not voting to join the Mandalorian Wars. The reason they did not go in the Wars is because it was the quick and easy path, the obvious choice for victory. The Council was afraid that a greater threat might come of their joining the Madalorian Wars. And despite the Pro-Madalorian War tilt your character possess in this game and the therefore biased view you're presented, the Council was right. The Jedi who did join the war were almost wholly corrupted by the Dark Side. They followed Revan once they saw how much power they could wield so easily through the Dark Side of the force. So the Council's wisdom was indeed correct, despite the many attempts this game, contrary to the original, makes to change your mind. There is something called the greater good, and the greater purpose, and that is why Vrook and the other Masters did not join the war. So for those that will cite this as an example of his willingness to through away lives, you're just being narrow minded and only seeing the facts that you want to. Calling him a Sith Lord is just so ridiculous I can't imagine how anyone could say such a fallacy. If you're so right and he is a Sith Lord, then I want you to tell me how he is just like Malak, Nihilus, Palpatine, and Vader. Because if he is, then you're saying he is just as evil as them. His few personality traits certainly don't amount to anything close, so you're arugments are just completely flawed. Just think about it logically.

A little off topic here, but Bastila is spelled with one l, not two lol. You're name is spelled wrong lol.

First off, if another sequel is made, please, please, please let Bioware do it. lol I'd like a game that even compares with the original, not falls over itself in a million ways. I think the game should take place a long time later, as Bioware originally wanted for this game, and should be completely independent, like this game originally was suspposed to be.

Take whoever you want to is my advice. You can so easily overpower your character, that it should be no problem for you to be able to handle yourself with any choice of characters.

Favorite: T-3: Out of all the characters, besides Kreia and the Handmaiden, I think T-3 has the most expansive dialogue. One of the things I did enjoy about this game was the expanded dialogue and options with him. It was fun to tell him what a good job he was doing, not to mention with that renewable energy shield he can get he is virtually indestructable. Handmaiden: I found her to be an interesting character. She had an interesting backstory, and is the only character with a full story to them besides maybe the bits and peices we learn of Kreia. Mira: Mira was also an interesting character. A bounty hunter certainly wasn't an original idea, and her dialogue options are buggy (Ex. You tell her you want to show her how you can sense Nar Shadaa through the force, however unless you read a guide or somehow make a lucky guess that you need to return to the spot on Nar Shadaa where you saw the planet, this option leads nowhere and offers no hints of how to actually use it), but she is a fairly interesting character. Her background is pretty run of the mill, and nothing impressive or really even interesting, just the same old my parents died, I was an orphan and had to fend for myself story; but I felt that her plot with Hanharr was interesting (although poorly played out. HK-47/HK-50's: Hk-47, despite returning from KotOR, has much less backstory and dialogue in this game, which I found disappointing. That coupled with the fact that I didn't find him to say meatbag once was kind of a letdown too. The HK-50's though were definitely enjoyable and continued the tradition, although like so many other things in this game end in one huge plot hole. Dislikes: Kreia: God, did I hate Kreia. She is perhaps the most annoying character out of any game I have ever played. Constantly you are forced to listen to her long-winded speeches about the Force or Force bonds which don't really make any sense, and then listen to her sadistic comments whenever she is in the party. I really wish you had the option to just leave her on Peragus because this witch was an awful character in my opinion. And then I was supposed to be surprised like it was some kind of plot twist when she revealed she was a Sith. Atton- "Don't you get it, don't you understand why she made those sadistic comments all the time, Kreia is a Sith!" Me- "Oh my God! Really? How did I not see?! I was so stupid! I should have wondered whether this sadistic old woman who could use the force and a lightsaber was anything more then a wandering hermit! God am I dumb! Bao-Dur: Pathetic character. Really pathetic. I thought when I first got him he would be the Canderous-like characte of this game, since he was in the wars on the republic side instead, however, since Canderous is actually in the game I was proved wrong lol. I figured he would tell war stories and such and perhaps have more of a story then he served under you, liked it, and has a flying sphere that accompanies him. However, we get no backstory at all. In fact, he is such a great and developed character (as people claim the characters in this game are) that I have one whole dialogue option with him! "Nevermind." Pathetic. Visas: Terrible, horrible character. She's a freaky looking alien girl like Juhani and we get a tiny synopsis of her home world being destroyed by her master, and how much that hurt her because she is a user of the foce, and that's it. Like her Master, she has 0 real storyline. She is not developed at all, and so fits perfect with Nihilus, they both have no story, no real purpose in the game, and are just more unfinished projects in this game. Atton: Slightly less whiny than Carth. He, like Carth, also reminds me of a little girl who can't handle herself in the real world and whines and cries all the time about her problems. I really wish I was given the option to kill him in the end and put his miserable life to an end. Besides having been a Sith himself, and having fought Jedi, Atton generally has no real backstory either. Poorly done character. Mandalore: Canderous all over again. Except worse. Much worse. He wants to rebuild the Mandalore clans so that they may one day fight again. Despite the fact this directly conflicts with what he said at the end of KotOR, which was to the effect of "The time of the clans has passed, I don't want to fight anymore, I need something more out of life." So already his purpose in the game makes no sense. Other then wanting to rebuild the clans, he has 0 backstory, and offers no explanation of why he doesnt recognize the Ebon Hawk, the droids, or how he even got from the end of KotOR to where he is today. Couple this with the fact his sidequest of finding the scattered Mandalorian tribed on the planets is completely piontless, and you get one bad continuation of the Canderous character. G0-T0- Stupid flying droid. Like I needed another droid in the party. His said purpose is to watch you for G0-T0 and make sure his political goals are carried out. He wants the conflict over one way or another. Wow, real original. So inspiring. Accept if the Sith in this game win, everyone should eventually die, so he loses anyway. He is partially tied to the unmade HK-50 factory quest because he does mention something about that he either knows about it or asked them to hunt you. So Stupid. Other then working for the Exchange, G0-T0 has no story and his real motives are never really revealed (probably because the conflict between him and the Remote at the end never happened and remained a plot hole). He could have been a much more interesting character had he been fully developed. Did I miss anyone? Anyhow, I didn't enjoy any of these characters nearly as much as those in KotOR (save Juhani). I felt them all to be fairly shallow, underdeveloped, and not believable. Especially Kriea.

Vrook is not a Sith Master. Just like it makes no sense that Atris is a Sith Master which is apparently what you're supposed to believe. There is a huge difference about having qualities which LEAD to the dark side (fear, anger, agression) and actually embracing the dark side. Anakin fufills every single darkside emotion in Episode 2, he is afraid at times, he is very angry, he is arrogant of his power, but does this make him someone who follows the dark side of the Force? No! It simply leads to it. As we know in the next movie, this path he has created will be fufilled. This is why it is so ridiculous that the game imposes Atris is darkside, simply because she is arrogant and harbors a grudge against you. She wants to train Jedi, not Sith, even if she has some flaws, how is this darkside? You don't have to be a Yoda with 100% lightside meter or else you're evil, how silly would that be? lol Saying Vrook is a Sith is even more ridiculous. If you say he is a Sith simply because he is often arrogant and holds a grudge, then I guess if everyone on our planet were in the Star Wars Universe, we'd all be Sith! If you recall from the first KotOR, Vrook is the one who doubts you the most, that you truly can follow a different path from that of Revan. If you decide to go the darkside route, then he is even proved right, and his accusations and suspicions have merit! The absurdity that this game tries to imply that anyone with even a hint of bad emotions is darkside is just awful.

I wasn't trying to tell people that their opinions are wrong, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect that. I just merely wanted to discuss their reasons for liking the game. As I said, I don't HATE the game, but it has many many problems, and playing the first one after completing this one, I can't even bring myself to play KotOR 2 again. And as for the majority opinion on this game... Like I said, by now, most people who were disappointed like I was with the game no longer have an interest in it, and therefore would no longer be on message boards. A week after the game came out, many many people had the same opinion I did. And, if you look at the thread which is probably buried by now entitled "Filling in the Plot Holes at the End...", in this very forum, you will see that I am not in the minority about this game. And I'd just like to make one more argument without going into step by step details of plot and character development. After the first KotOR, I was on the Bioware for a boards for a very long time. And I can tell you, there wasn't one single person who disliked or complained about the game, besides small things like bugs. The very fact that it was recieved so well and this game has been labeled disappointing by many, should say something about its quality. It was universally recieved and loved, and there is a reason it was the Game of the Year, and KotOR 2, obviously, did not continue that tradition (I'm not sure if it can be voted GotY in 2005, but I will bet money it won't even get close). I'm not trying to change anyone's minds, or tell them they're wrong, I'm just trying to state my opinions. I've come to realize that as far as sequels go, there will always be people who love them no matter what poor condition they're in. (Matrix 2-3, Master of Orion 3 *ugh*) Whether you think I'm 100% wrong or not, it is a fac this game has no where near the hype of the 1st one and that should say something. I know for myself that my friends who only play PC games and are waiting till it comes out on PC, will be disappointed. And for the stuff about George Lucas... I never said you had to worship the ground he walked on. The original trilogy was incredible and obviously it shows because it is still one of the most widely recognized movies almost 30 years after it was made. It was his idea, his brainchild, and those that love to insult him and shoot him down, you really are just very confused about what your likes and dislikes are. You can't like Star Wars without respecting George Lucas's ideas. Period. That would be like me saying that I love modern physics and all the way it has come, but I hate Einstein and I think he was a complete moron. It is simply hypocritical. All of the EU which those of you that like to insult Lucas undoubtly read, would not exist but for him. It is pure logic. So I hope you all have had enough venting of your anger now, and will relax.

Are you joking?! If you think this story line is "complicated" as you put it then you're just plain imagining things that are in the game that are simply not there. The story is by no means cohesive, there are many huge plot holes, and there is no ending. How is that better? A lot of people have a tendency to impose on a game their own stories or impressions. Games are not meant for you to have to make up your own explanations and stories in your mind to be complete. This game was rushed, as everyone knows, and it sure shows. And the fact that you bash George Lucas, shows you are not a true Star Wars fan. In case you hadn't noticed, Star Wars is George Lucas. It is his idea, his dream, his story, and his movies that created the universe in which you play this game and you now speak of. Being foolish enough to insult George Lucas' storytelling really shows that you have no idea what a good Star Wars story is, because if you don't like the originals, then how can you even make such a claim. The people who love this game so adamently, and feel it is so superior to the 1st are either just living in a dream world or completely blind to the bugs, plot holes, and huge inconsistencies in this game. And as for the game getting rave reviews from a lot of places... A lot of those game sites/reviewers are in game developers pockets far and wide. If you don't believe me go to IGN and notice the tons of banners that are for games, you know they don't put those up there for free right? I have talked to a lot of people who have played this game, on this board and on Lucasarts, and many, many people are disappointed, of course most especially with the ending. If their voices are silent now it is simply because of the unavoidable fact that if you're disappointed with a game, you're not too likely to go on the boards and talk about it every day are you? And I may have complaints about the game, but I did enjoy it all the way up to the end. It was so disappointing and it answered nothing, and that is why I have so many other issues with this game. Finally, I made this post here because there is obviously a possibility of spoilers in such a post, and it doesn't belong in the general forum for that reason.

I just wanted to ask the people who are in love with this game and like it as much/(better??? : o) than the first one, what is it about this game that gives you the same/better experience than KotOR? I'm just trying to understand if most people are that willing to either ignore or make up for in their own minds the many pointed out flaws in this game. I know as for my own opinion, it is extremely disappointing, has an awful storyline, the single worst ending I've ever seen in a game, sooooo many plot holes, and is buggy as hell. To me, the storyline was by far the best quality of KotOR, and the game was polished and created with an almost unheard of quality. It was a new, refreshing, and captivating story, with many interesting sidequests, extremely clever writing and dialogue and just an all around great game. I also feel that the characters in KotOR (save Juhani *shudder*) were crafted beautifully and completely realistically. Jolee acts exactly like a real elderly man, and it is just amazing how many of his mannerisms are just like that of my Grandfather lol. As far as I am concerned, KotOR 2's characters are shallow, poorly developed, boring, and I even find Kriea's constant ranting extremely annoying. The story is well, as I have said before, utterly horrible in my opinion. It could have been good no doubt, if the game had a real ending, maybe with a revelation in it... What I'm really just trying to understand is if people are so taken by this game because of the slightly upgraded combat/force powers/feats it has, because I really have trouble believing anyone could even compare it to the original in any othe category.

Darth Traya is supposed to be Kreia, then Atris, then Kreia again? Give me a break! How pathetic is that? I love how anybody and their brother decides to write something and it becomes part of the "Star Wars Universe". I really dislike EU and this game veers much more off on that tangent then the first game did. It was much more true to the movies. (Ex. Didn't have silly lightsabers that were every color of the rainbow)

If that is the case, then you either auto-leveled up or have little to no skill in building a character. I killed Malak very easily as a Jedi Sentinel, despite the fact that force powers rarely/don't work on him and this is the weakest class for lightsaber combat. Leveling to 50 using a glitch is cheating no matter how you slice the cake. Yes, ok maybe the game does scale to your level, but it does not account for the fact that you get every feat and force power, which you would not have otherwise. And the fact that it is a glitch, and not something the dev's intended, is kind of a red light that you're not supposed to get to level 50! If you were someone who was terribely at selecting force powers/feats, then leveling to 50 would negate your inability to understand how to build a character. This is cheating. I'm not saying it isn't worth doing after you've beaten the game on dark and light and are looking for something fun to do, but it is still cheating. And I'm not sure who said it, but KotOR 1, did scale in a manner of speaking. Not like this game apparently does, but depending on what order you did the 4 main planets, the enemies would be harder/easier on them based on your level. I think having no real level cap in this game is silly. It doesn't work for a game like this with a linear storyline and a limited amount of XP in the game. For a game like Morrowind which is absolutely huge and without bounds and you can do it however you please, it works, but I just believe it unbalances the game by devaluing having to pick your feats/powers intelligently.

Her cameo appearance in the game itself is just another of the many plot holes that KotOR 2 is so fond of. A high profile Jedi like her would be the first one to die if the Sith were secretly killing Jedi, besides the fact that you and the Jedi Masters are supposed to be the only remaining Jedi; but this fact is conviently ignored so you can see her pretty face one more time. I don't think she should have been in the game because she shouldn't even be alive in this time. Maybe if the entire game were completly different and there was a cohesive storyline that made sense and was independent of KotOR 1 (as Bioware originally wanted it to be, when I used to be on their forums for the 1st game), then, just maybe, she might have had a place, but the game as it is has no place at all for her.