Cantousent

Are you sure your old nickname wasn't 'Eldar,' Red? EDIT: And I've started watching my blu ray collector's edition of LOST. Revisting the old scene of the crime. What makes it a 'collector's edition?' Who the hell knows? I can't remember.

You could apply the same mechanism to deities. More followers equals more power, not because "my lightning bolt is bigger than yours!", but because my followers are more powerful/influential/dominant and so shape the world in my image. You could say, the end result is the same, even if for different reasons. I feel like playing Populous again. Good thing I grabbed it off GoG. I agree with this whole heartedly. Some gods will have divine power, but still long for influence to mold the world. This entails a structure where the gods aren't inherently more powerful for having more worshippers, but much more influential. Unless there is some supreme being like God (who would exist beyond worldly care), ideas will always be the most powerful forces among sentient beings. I suppose the natural physical world is the boundary of our existence, but nations are created and destroyed, wars are fought, over ideas, and that has a power that transcends physical prowess because that power decides where that physical prowess is applied.

Don't get me wrong, Somna. I understand the underlying idea. It's not like I can't comprehend the point. It's that I reject it. On the other hand, I've had my say and there doesn't seem to be any more to add at the moment. I still hope they break out of the trend, but if the majority of folks want to stick with something familiar, I guess that shows the true power of belief. It doesn't make it true, but it can sure as hell influence the devs, can't it? :Cant's wry grin icon: Anyhow, no hard feelings. I'll take my lumps like everyone else when it comes to design, but I'm still going to push it as long as it's up for grabs. That's my own particular power of belief. :Cant's **** eating grin icon:

I don't think it makes any more sense than saying that deities are inherently divine by nature. I mean, really, it makes sense that a bunch of people believing in something makes it true? How many atheists out there want to stipulate that idea? ...And I'm Catholic, so I'm not arguing from an atheist point of view anyway. I mean, belief could have made ships fall off the edge of the world at one point in our history, but they didn't, thus proving that mere belief on the part of the population does not, in fact, determine reality. ...And if we're forced with the same ol' tired cliched idea of power derived from worship, can it at least be stipulated that conviction rather than simple numerical value is the prime determinant? Otherwise, a good spreadsheet tells you everything you need to know about the gods. They're simply reduced down to the fantasy football league variety of the supernatural. Also, that means that gods who don't have this ridiculous 'portfolio' can still be powerful because the other gods belief in them. ...Or because they are so convinced of their own power that they are a redoubt of spiritual power built on the mountain of their own wills. I just see the mathematical formula as limiting the mystery of the gods. They're nothing more than powerful beings who happen to gain a lot of followers. It strips them of their otherworldness and makes them as mundane as any other force in the world. Anyhow, if the devs simply make it clear that the power of the gods is determined by the number of followers, I'll save my breath and other folks from having to hear me argue and let the matter drop. Also, educated people at the time Columbus sailed knew the Earth was round, and they knew it because of observation and calculation. The earlier beliefs of humanity then, as now, bounded by reality. ...And a number of people still believed that the earth was flat even then, but it didn't mean a damn thing to the sailors. EDIT: Well, there are also many interesting story and lore possibilities that become available thanks to this very mechanic. It opens up a huge (and credible) source of conflict between gods and between groups of believers, and conflict makes for good stories. And these things are automatically excluded because we remove a straightforward correlation between worshippers and power? Why can't some gods and some worshippers vie for more influence because it's a common motive. People with money still long for influence. The President of the United States isn't made superhuman by the number of votes he receives. He's made more powerful by his influence over the apperatus of government.

I don't understand why folks are so fixated on the prowess of the gods being determined by the number of worshippers. Morgulon mentioned above that it was the most logical way to address the issue, but if there's any single point where a fantasy game can break away from 'realism,' shouldn't it be in regards to the supernatural? I don't mind the idea that the power of the gods is tied to worshippers because it's cliched. I don't even mind it because it's far too mechanical of an earthly construct to determine the nature of an idea that is inherently otherworldly. Sure, it's both of those things, but I don't even really mind all that. I don't like it because it's too limiting. There are so many possibilities that are automatically excluded if you tie the power of each god to the number of his or her followers. ...I want there to be the possibility of some unworshipped god who does not rely on worshippers.

I think folks should throw out whole pantheons if they want. Some people have proposed pretty big spreads. ...But the devs want to get some input from the community and they probably can't take a huge number of gods from this thread anyway. If they took an entire pantheon from one member, they'd probably have to leave out other potential contributers. That's conjecture on my part, so take it or leave it as you wish. Now, the relationship between gods and worshippers and between each other is something I think we've kind of overlooked. Some folks have had pretty good insights, but it really falls down to the setting, and that leaves out a lot of information we don't know yet. The way I see it, we could have one essential pantheon because, if gods are an established reality, people know who the gods are. Maybe those gods have different names, but they'll be the same known entity. On the other hand, how much room is there for doubt? By that, I don't mean room for doubt in the gods. The demonstrable reality will lead the vast majority of people in the world to believe in gods in some manner. Some scholars might argue about true divinity and whether the gods are actually deities or simply extremely powerful entities. If there's an anti-god in the pantheon, his worshippers might deny the gods truly exist. ...But, in either case, these will be fringe elements within society. However, there might be a notion of known gods that are identified through actions and works and other gods who, for a variety of reasons, don't openly do things in the world. That would leave a lot of room open for debate, speculative worship, and theological study. I hope that the relative power of gods isn't determined by number of worshippers, although number of souls might be a factor. I also hope that, if they allow for so called hidden gods that they aren't necessarily less powerful. Like someone said above (and I apologize that I didn't remember all the names), no matter how anthropomorphized they make the gods, I hope they still retain that level of remoteness that makes them 'other-worldly.'

That's tough, Nep, but I think Mel has it right. Once you're working in the field, it won't really make much of a difference because you'll make a name for yourself in your work history. Good luck, man. I took a flexeril last night and I've been walking around like a zombie all day. It occurs to me that I'm getting old.

Hot damn, you big green scaly berk! You are the man... or dragon as it were.

I think a couple of folks mentioned this up above, but I would really enjoy at least one god who is so absolutely remote, so alien to human thought, that we simply can't comprehend his motives. ...And I want him to do stuff. I don't want him to be the big bad guy, but I want a definitely feeling that he's just working towards some crazy assed goal no one else understands. ...Or maybe, like the bitch from Aliens, his only apparent goal is death and destruction, but not with malice. I don't want him to be evil as regards motive, even if his actions are clearly evil from the perspective of humanity. I don't even want us to understand him enough to attribute a motive to any of his actions.

I think that could be cool basis for some intrigue, fortun. Maybe the Exiled god isn't completely defeated. Maybe he's just biding his time, trying to scheme. ...Or maybe he was never the bad guy the other gods accused him of being. Maybe he was trying something so radical the other gods felt threatened and sent him packing. EDIT: Regarding Greek gods, it strikes me that we assume that the people of this world worship a god, maybe of their choosing or, more likely, one decided by them based on location. Greeks didn't worship a single god. They worshipped a variety of gods for a variety of reasons, including the consumption of meat, general revelry, agricultural and seasonal reasons, etc. Athenians had Athena as a patron deity, but they had festivals for other gods. The Romans actually had a pantheon of gods, but the primary object of worship for a Roman household were (surprise) the household deities. ...And, to varying degrees, other cultures, such as the Greeks, worshipped household deities as well. You might have a festival for one deity or another, but you prayed to the household god/goddesses to protect your home and hearth. My take is that the world is much more of a cut-throat god eat god proposition in Project Eternity.

The only thing I don't like about this is that it seems to be some sort of tendency in a lot of fantasy RPGs to have this 'twist' that behind all the facade is a technological cause.

I think it would be fun to have a god who disbelieves in himself. He could suffer from some sort of solipsism or some other mental disorder in which he thinks he's imagining his metaphysical existence or even thinks that he's actually dead or some sort. He continually tries to disprove not only his own existence, but the existence of the other gods. I don't know who would worship him, but it could lead to two things I consider good for a game. 1. An avenue for discussing theology that isn't destroyed by the very setting and backstory of the game and 2. Some crazy assed funny conversations and interchanges. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization EDIT: Ya bastard! lol You beat me to it.

When you say pantheon, do you mean a single host of deities worshipped by a particular shared global culture, or will there be multiple 'pantheons' from a variety of cultures? If souls exist and the metaphysics of souls has removed all doubt, and if then that means that specific defined deities exist, I would think the result would put a boundary limit on theological arguments. It's hard to argue for completely different beliefs when a single limiting belief is smacking you in the forehead. On the other hand, I can see some chance for a little wiggle-room and if there's a place there for a little bit of the 'anti-theist,' then you guys could be cookin' with gas.

What did I ever do to you? comedy. Laugh. out. loud.

I remember I busted one kid for talking back in class and he said he was going to tell his mother. I actually liked the little fifth grade smart-ass, but he was a mouthy as hell. Anyhow, I just shook my head and ask, "Do you really think your mother, a local superior court justice, is going to side with you on this one?" I pulled out my phone and suggested we call to settle it right there, but he didn't bite. Anyhow, I was a teacher for a couple of years a long time ago, and so I don't take any credit as a teacher, but I do have the utmost respect for dedicated teachers. Sure, there are some worthless ones who don't care about the kids, but they tend to get weeded out for the most part. The people who stay, like Hurlie and you, Lab, are the ones who really make a difference in the lives of the children.

lol You're a bad, bad man, AGX. ...But, seriously, it wasn't just the stealthsuit that was incongruous. There is also Christine's Silenced Sniper Rifle. I mean, I used that rifle the whole rest of the game. You can head shot things waaaay out and then, if it's a deathclaw or something that can actually survive a critical or if it had friends, the bad guys mill around aimlessly because they don't know where you are. Truly excellent. Out of everything from the dlc, I have one thing from Broken Road and two things from OWB I still use.

Keep up the good work, Lab. Caring for the children of others is a noble thing. Happy birthday, Oro. I've been there, man! hehe

I think the Auld Lang Syne quest is the most depressing and uplifting of the whole game. It actually turned things around and made me put myself in the position of the Enclave. I don't know who designed that questline, but it was excellent. I think, before New Vegas, FO2 was my favorite of the series. This brings me to my thoughts about Arcade Gannon, of course, but I've learned that my opinions on a subject seem considerably deeper after a long night of indulging and so I'm going to wait. Then, to make it worse, when I put those thoughts to words, it will be long winded and stuffy, which discourages me further. My thoughts on Arcade Gannon aren't important. However, the Auld Lang Syne quest is superb, regardless of what insights I might have thought i had in my Irish soaked brain. No need to delve in Arcade Gannon and his counter culture experience further than that, I suppose.

I've never played one of the games on D_N's list. He sent me a private message with the game code and I have successfully entered it into STEAM. I will admit that I wasn't expecting a game, but it's the only one I hadn't played before and now I intend to play it. Great job, D_N. You're a stand-up guy for putting out some stuff for the community.

You rat bastard delinquent, Raithe! Okay, I have a story also. We used to have an old green Impala. The gas gauge broke and so I would have to keep track of the mileage until I fixed it. I used to have to fly up to Concord, CA all the time for business. I ended up there for a couple of weeks once and, flight delayed, getting back to SoCal, working at 7am with a half hour drive, I got three hours of sleep before I went to work and got the call that none of my brothers and sisters in Las Vegas could help the folks move. So, I finished work and drove immediately out to Vegas. I got there late, but had to go to Walmart for something to wear. I got a pair of cheap green shorts and borrowed a pair of my dad's shoes and a tie-dyed t-shirt that was a size or two too small. I moved everything the next day and then, exhausted from lack of sleep went to sleep until the next day. I got up and, over the protests of my mom and dad, drove home. I had to give the shoes back to dad, so I wore my new green shorts, a tight tie-dyed t-shirt, and my dress shoes and socks. On trips, I can stay awake by drinking tons of caffein, running the air conditioner on high, and putting off using the restroom. It's miserable, but it keeps me awake. So there I am, frozen, hyped on caffein, and desperately putting off the restroom when... Remember the broken gas gauge? So, I run out of gas and have to pull over. I get out, exhausted and miserable, and start walking to the nearest exit. A little cesspool by the name of Stoddard Wells road somewhere between Victorville and Barstow, I think. Anyhow, I'm walking towards the exit in my green shorts, tie-dyed shirt, and dress shoes when a semi stops and the passenger door opens and a man asks in a pronounced Southern drawl, "Ya need a rahde?" I looked up, weighed my chances of getting murdered, decided I just didn't care, and had him drop me at Stoddard Wells Road. Anyway, if I'd been thinking clearly, I would have bought a gallon of orange juice, dumped it, and filled the container with gas and walked back to the car. As it was, since neither of the two gas stations (dumps) in the place sold gas can, I called the wife and she had to get out of bed, buy some gas cans, and come to me to fill them up and bring them to me some eighty miles away. We got the car to the gas station and filled it with gas whereupon my wife insisted that we have breakfastfast at the only place nearby... a Marie Calender's. It is a testament that my wife, who always worries about being presentable (which calls into question why she married me) actually walked into the joint with me dressed as I was. This last Thanksgiving, unbidden and without spite, the thought came to me that I was thankful I don't talk to my family any more. Now that my dad is dead, there is truly no reason for me to see any of them again. Anyhow, tonight I broke into a little Irish. As snobbish as people can be about Scotch, and I'm guilty too :Cant's repentent grin icon:, I think a little Irish is good. For one thing, Scotch is a little much for getting drunk but I don't feel guilty breaking into the Irish. The sad truth is, no matter what else they provide, pretty much everything other than Scotch is for getting drunk, from cognac to rye.

Post a pic? We used to have a pet pics thread around here somewhere I thought. That might have been a long long time ago, but I seem to remember a few notables. Red has a couple of cute kitties. GD and Mal have doggies, although Mal's a small one and GD trains big dogs or something like that. Gorth, the gone Aussie native bastard, has been feeding some sort of pet lizard. I know Fio has a couple of big dogs. I used to have three cats, but I've lost a couple over the years and only one of my little beasts is left. I don't know if Squeakycat hangs out in WoT, but I know she's got a couple of captivating cats. Went to church, then out to lunch with friends at the mediteranean restaurant for Arabic cuisine and some Turkish coffee. The proprietors are from Syria originally if I'm not mistaken. Good times, and now getting ready for the grind to kick back in again.

It's tough for me because I've liked RPGs of all stripes. In PnP, I've enjoyed Gamma World, Dungeons and Dragons, Boot Hill, Paranoia, Cthulu, and tons of obscure rpgs as well as friends' homebrew stuff. In CRPGs, I've enjoyed everything from Temple of Apshai to Diablo to Planescape: Torment. Some of the games in the genre are so far apart from one another, they might as well be in different genres. For that reason it can be hard to pin down my favorite reason, but I think the best way to approach this question is to stipulate that I like the genre for many reasons. I want fun gameplay, some humor, a little drama, maybe some suspense and a pinch of horror all combined with cool eye-candy, a compelling music score, and a story that let's me define my character in some good way. Not every game provides all that. In fact, most games don't provide at least some of those things, but I still enjoy every one of those aspects. The thing that's most important to me is a compelling story in which my character is forced to make real decisions. Those decisions need not revolve around world-ending events. If my wife is dying, most of the world won't care at all, and yet that event is supremely important to me personally. The world will go on no matter what we do, and so the stories that are most important to me personally are personal in nature. Kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall but you go on and on... just like October. (just seeing if there are any other U2 fans out there.) I don't mind romances. They're not really my thing, but I don't mind them. It's just that virtually all of them are just ridiculously stupid. I've known my wife for over 30 years. I've been married to her for almost seventeen. How compelling do you think a romance between two strangers who hardly know each other can be for someone like me? If something happened to my wife, they'd probably find me wandering around the local orange groves. Most computer game romances strike me as laughable. Now, to go the opposite and be non-emo, I can understand the raw physical chemistry between TNO and Annah. That was written so superbly, and it really strikes me so genuine, that I couldn't help but enjoy the exchange. Even being married, I can grasp raw mutual physical attraction between people who've just met. Likewise, I know how traumatic experiences can draw people close quickly. I just don't see any of it as the sort of 'romance' folks talk about. I'd rather just call it sexual heat. I don't go out of my way to fight with folks about romances. I think some, very few, but some, are quite well done. I just think that they have to be carefully written to qualify as so-called 'mature' gaming. Part of that is the fact that death is meaningless in a lot of games. People in your life dying is a wrenching event that games almost never recognize. Then again, I've enjoyed a lot of games with laughable romances, so I'm still trying to define what I want or don't want in a CRPG.

This is an excellent idea, D_N. I might take your example if I have some extra games.

At this point, I certainly hope that Obsidian lets Bell keep his place as composer. There has to be room for fresh faces and new ideas. Just because folks enjoy the work of one composer doesn't mean that all other composers must suck. I think Obsidz should give Bell a chance to make his name on this project, not because I'm a fan. Hell, I haven't heard enough of his work to be a fan at this point, but because I think he has the desire to create something special and they wouldn't have hired him on in the first place if someone there didn't have confidence. If they don't have that confidence, they should replace him, of course, but this is a new game and chance for a new legacy. As long as they have faith in his abilities, they should let their instincts be the guide.

Had a great dinner with the in-laws. Probably the best Thanksgiving I've had in years, and Thanksgiving is usually a happy experience, so that's great. I don't really mind the critical posts, and I mean that sincerely. I've had much more hostile posts in previous holiday threads I've created, and I always create them if I'm around. I will only take issue with one idea, and that's that I'm afraid of the community. I don't take issue with the idea that I'm cowardly. Sometimes I am. ...But I'm not scared of the people here because, by and large, I trust them. Just about everybody who comes here regularly, in fact. While I don't feel defensive about myself, I can be a bit defensive about the community. The point of poking fun at my Christianity is that I want to be inclusive even of people who are hostile to it. It's probably not productive to respond angrily to criticism regarding my faith from either erudite historians or other Christians, and so I won't. I'll just say that I'm going to be willing to poke a little fun at myself because I think it's good for me, and that's really the point. It was never my Christianity that was silly. It was always my person, and my faith tells me that. Anyhow, I will say that I'm going to try to find new ways to be as inclusive as possible in these holiday threads and I'm going to create them whenever I'm 'in town.'