Gromnir

the way some of you clowns is bashing the accuracy of a review for a game you ain't even played yet is astounding... at first we thought that some o' you were trying to be funny... doing the over-the-top fanbois act as a joke... but you folks ain't joking. for chrissakes, at the very least you should play some of the game before you decide whether or not the reviews is rights or wrongs... shameful.

chris a might be expecting too much from folks. if first impressions makes folks think that the character is suffering from amnesia, then some other explanation will be hard for many to consider. subtlety is often wasted and even if writer thinks he made the alternative explanation obvious, the player will hold on tenaciously to their initial categorization

how anybody here can complain 'bout the gamespot review when they ain't played the game yet is... disturbing. you just blew whatever credibility you mighta

it does not bother us that some peoples vote w/o having played... but the sheer numbers is getting ridiculous. vampire: bloodlines had over 180 community ratings before that game ever hit shelves... any guesses what the numbers for kotor2 will be by end of today? HA! Good Fun!

over 50 community ratings for kotor2 already. eb and other major retailers is saying they won't release til 7th. so, how many you thinks actually gots? how many could possibly have played far enough to give it a Perfect? over 60% has given it a perfect score at gamespot. another +5% claim it is abysmal. http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/kotor2/readers.html somebody should really point out to gamespot how their community rating system is being exploited... or not. doesn't matter to Gromnir. but the first person that tells us that the community feedback for kotor2 is showing a 9.7, regardless of the reviews at ign or gamespot or gamespy, really should read this post first. HA! Good Fun!

true, but spelling it "saber" is perfectly acceptable even if a bit gauche. HA! Good Fun!

rrrriiiiggghhhhttt. didn't josh compare your stoopidity to krazy's not long ago? *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

if you say so... but we think you is full of crap. HA! Good Fun!

i mean why do they matter so much. a story should be the first thing on the list of important games. i know graphics need to be "cool" to attract some people. its just my opinion that graphics shouldnt matter more than the story <{POST_SNAPBACK}> for some folks, graphics matter lots. for others, they don't matter much at all. the ign review, as an example, gave a score for graphics, but we never seen it claim that graphics were more important than story. readers can always decide for themselves just how important graphics is, but for a reviewer NOT to mention graphics would be negligent. the graphics in kotor aren't that spectacular... and for those of us who not care 'bout graphics, the fact that the graphics in kotor2 do not equal halo2's is not a concern. for those folks who think that graphics IS the end all and be all of game development, they know to avoid kotor2. everybody wins. HA! Good Fun!

"why do graphics matter?" sure they matter. how many would buy if kotor2 were a text-only game? much of what made kotor successful were fact that it looked "kewl." it were never cutting edge or anything, but lighsabre combats were fun to watch, and the critters were good 'nuff. is graphics as important as story or gameplay? not for Gromnir... graphics ain't even close to being the most important thing for us, but graphics matter... don't kid yourself 'bout that. HA! Good Fun!

copied it... we figured that one of the threads would probably get deleted... so we decided that we would post in both threads... just in case. HA! Good Fun!

looks pretty much like kotor... with robes. why you ask? kotor2 were a short development using same engine as original... an engine which weren't all that impressive as far as graphics went when it were released last year. kotor2 were developed more like an expansion than a sequel. we has seen almost 100 screenshots of kotor2 over the past year. we has seen quite a few game footage movies of kotor2 over the past year. is not like the fact that kotor2 looks much like kotor is much of a surprise to Gromnir. *shrug* "up to par"? am not sure what you set as par, but we note that at least for those of us who has been following development even a little, none of us should be surprised by the quality of kotor2 graphics. lord knows that Gromnir ain

looks pretty much like kotor... with robes. why you ask? kotor2 were a short development using same engine as original... an engine which weren't all that impressive as far as graphics went when it were released last year. kotor2 were developed more like an expansion than a sequel. we has seen almost 100 screenshots of kotor2 over the past year. we has seen quite a few game footage movies of kotor2 over the past year. is not like the fact that kotor2 looks much like kotor is much of a surprise to Gromnir. *shrug* "up to par"? am not sure what you set as par, but we note that at least for those of us who has been following development even a little, none of us should be surprised by the quality of kotor2 graphics. lord knows that Gromnir ain

"I understand that ill-defined characters are more difficult to write. But that doesn't mean IWD is superior because they added difficulty and, imo, didn't succeed." you got backwards... again. iwd was EASIER... which is why the plot turned out better. the plot did not focus on your characters at all. your party moved action along but you were a largely incidental part of story. iwd did not try to tell your story or give you a specific background. your motivations as a player did not impact plot one bit. the "mysteries" of ps:t were happhazard and disjointed... as they had to be. why couldn't you die? is not any bigger mystery than those in any other game. examples: who is the villian... what is their plan... am i the child of prohecy... why... if you felt something in particular for TNO's plight, that is mainly a matter of character development as 'posed to plot, 'cause ps:t did nothing particularly special or impressive with the way it structured those "mysteries" you were so impressed with. ps:t plot were harder to get right (and failed to do so,) 'cause the writers were trying to keep focus on YOUR character. the story of ps:t were TNO. and yet, the witers wanted TNO to be your character... a character with a personality and motivitions of your own devise... but since they couldn't make an infinite number of possible protagonists, they made one kinda fuzzy and general one with vague 'nuff motivations such that they would work for just 'bout anybody. "A bit unfair given that Planescape itself is pretty much AD&D wrapped in Philosophy 101." is not unfair. "the grapes of wrath" were not simply a story 'bout some oakies on the way to ca, and "moby ****" weren't just 'bout a guy on a whale hunt. is reasons why you gotta study 'bout symbolism and extended metaphor and other stuff in college if you wants an MFA in english. Gromnir played planescape... lots. the fact that the planescape rulebooks had anemic little descriptors for the philosophical leanings of each of the factions not mean that each bleak cabal character you met in a planescape game necessarily would necessarily start spouting mangled versions of nietzsche. if we wants misquoted nietzche we can go to any college campus coffe shop and listen to some junior try to explain "Thus Spake Zarathustra" to his freshman girlfriend. nevertheless, chris did similar stuff with any number of characters in planescape. had 'em spout fortune cookie wisdom and cliff's notes philosophy at every opportunity. got old. were unnecessary. you wanna have coax metal talk 'bout entropy? fine, but you not ever need to have him say "entropy" once to do so. heck, would be even better to simply show the character entropy ... avoid all the messy and ugly dialogue. maybe the character not know that they has learned something 'bout entropy after such an encounter, but if chris a does right, then at some point late in game the pieces will start to come together and the reader/player will has some minor epiphany. and don't tell us that such subtlety is impossible in a crpg... 'cause ravel were such a character. HA! Good Fun!

this is getting stoopid. somebody do lacan a favor and type "cross-genre" and "computer games" into a search engine for him. even the obsidian developers has, from time to time, noted the increasing move twoards blurring the genres and even the distinctions 'tween pc and console platforms. silliness. "I would like an accurate evaluation of a game's qualities, and the only way I see to make them accurate is to compare by genre." well then, you do care. please make up your mind. HA! Good Fun!

"Not see why it should have to. Are we being graded? Simple statement, you said I was in for a world of hurt. A hugely exaggerated statement in relation to me. " in regards to your continued attempts to support such arguments as you has been making, yes, you is/will be in for a world of hurt. am not seeing what is so difficult to grasp. and as to your observation 'bout cross-genre titles being aberrational rather than representing a trend, we thinks you has not paid much attention over the past couple of years. is a time when kotor would not have been considered a serious rpg. the aforementioned vampire game were accused of being a quasi-shooter game. more and more games is becoming cross-platform and cross-genre. heck, name the hard-core rpgs coming out next year... ones that is arguably not cross-genre. last year we had numerous adventure rpgs like sacred and divine divinity 2 and next year we get... freedom force? nope... is cross-genre. jade empires? cross-genre. how

"Maybe I played with an old version of Ascension, but Ascension's (at least from Weimer's perspective) modified the strategy, the bosses, and the ending in TOB. Besides, we're talking about the product shipped, right? " yes it modified tob, but it also added dialogue to bg2. most seems unaware of this fact, but you can check with gaider if you wish... he is quite accesible at the bio boards. "In BG and BG2, the perspective was specifically on your character. In fact the BG2 plot revolved around you to the point of making everything else insignificant. " exactly the point... is the reason why it is generally tougher to make the plot of such games cohesive and meaningful. if the actions of YOUR character is the focus of the story, then the choices you make will be most important, no? well, a writer of a crpg has to take your actions into account as he builds story but YOUR actions might have been completely different than Gromnir's. in a crpg with the focus on the protagonist, a writer has to make a story where the protagonist has Choices and those choices is Meaningful, but at the same time, there is no such thing as a truly non-linear plot... so, to be completely honest, your choices cannot actually impact the game to any significant degree. the writer faces the impossible task of placing focus on a meaningful protagonist and giving him choices, but he still gotta make sure that such a character accomplishes A and B and C and D. ps:t and kotor tried to minimize this issue by giving the player less control over character development. you played TNO in ps:t. was male and dead and from the start there is various other characteristics that is fixed and known to the writer making a story 'bout such a character much easier to write. ps:t should have had a stronger plot if only 'cause it were a much less complex task to write. the revan character, while less concrete, were also a know quantity with a specific background. iwd went a step further and took focus off the protagonist(s) completely. events followed in a logical and meaningful order and the characters that were developed were static and known quantities. *shrug* give the notion of writing story focused on an ill-defined protagonist consideration, and you will figure it out on your own. HA! Good Fun!

"I'm in for a world of hurt? Not really, because I don't care much about reviews." not see how that observation helps your argument none. " Just pointing out that uncategorized comparisons are fairly meaningless. Most every game shares some convention with a genre. FPS, RPG, RTS, MMO can still be characterized by substantial differences and shared conventions." again, your observation does the opposite of what you wish. games is increasingly becoming cross-genre titles, and attempts to divide according to genre gives us a standard that becomes proportionally meaningless. is dungeon siege more adventure or role-play? is there some formula based on % of adventure to rp that we can use to come up with an appropriate value for graphics? for each game we would have to come up with a different formula. avoid this kinda calculus not help us neither. after all, does it make sense that a simple re-categorization would result in a game getting two completely different scores? "Of course not. But certainly you realize it takes money to hire people to write that dialogue. You have a finite amount of resources to complete a project. A decision must be made to cut certain things, such as r&d in a graphics engine." this is true in any game. genre not change this. is always up to a developer to spend more resources on programming as posed to other aspects. "Again, I don' care." we noticed, and is hardly moved by the recognition o' your apathy. is also maybe why your arguments make less and less sense as we go along. HA! Good Fun!

p.s. some of you might have a leg to stand on if the numeric categories that gamespot and ign uses necessarily were weighted equally to get a final score... but they ain't. HA! Good Fun!

where did we say tob? ascension added some dialogue to BG2 as well as to tob.... and lord only knows what creating your own characters has to do with your diminished opinion of plot in iwd. the fact that you have non-specific and non-important characters actually helps keep plot more cohesive as you not have to deal with the problem of Player A and Player B wanting their characters to be vastly different entities. take focus off the so-called protagonist improves chances for a good plot. again, we is talking

I don't think a comparison to different genres is very comparable. Fair? Who knows? Helpful? Not really. I would imagine the coding is vastly different for a shooter than an rpg. Also, writing thousands of pages of dialogue allocates resources toward that end instead of graphics. Not much dialogue in Halo. So should they be penalized because the nature of the game is different? A straight comparison is not helpful, the nature of shooters will always place their graphics quality above an rpg. A genre comparison seems more realistic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the whole notion of numeric reviews with limited categories is bunk, but to try and split up each category even further and to compare w/i a genre, especially in this day and age, would make such reviews relatively meaningless. when dungeon siege came out, many people were impressed with its graphics. game scored very well in graphics. not much dialogue in that game. as noted above, the notion of there being clear-cut genres is an increasingly specious one. if you wanna hang your argument on a genre by genre breakdown, then you is in for a world of hurt. also of note is that nobody suggests that the music or sound in a crpg should be weaker simply 'cause of all the dialogue that had to be written. heck, is not like the people who is doing the dialogue is also doing sound and programming too. if graphics is a secondary concern for folks, then why does they care if it not score as well as halo2? HA! Good Fun!

I played FO, and all those other games. I would rate PS: T's plot up there with most CRPG's. I can't think of any game's storyline that was vastly superior to PS:T, well maybe except XG. I've never really played any game that can stand up to literature. Maybe I missed some. Any recommendations? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> fo is as good in terms o' plot, and bg2 (especially once the ascension mod added some missing dialogue,) clearly is on par if not better as far as basic plot goes. heck, truth be told, iwd stands up to ps:t quite ably as far as plot goes. 'course, Gromnir has noted here and elsewhere that plot in fantasy/sci-fi is often weak... and in games this generality becomes even more true. to expect much from the plot of a crpg is questionable. to be worried that a game

also, keep in mind that the division between genres is often suspect. how many games has you seen marketed as multi-genre? more each day? we gotta come up with a new measure for each cross-genre category? what if a game is MORE a crpg than an adventure or fps? what if the reverse is true? bah! HA! Good Fun!