Gromnir

comic book stores. call and/or visit a comic book store that also sells d&d stuff. ask clerk/owner if he knows where/when d&d gaming sessions is being held. chances are that somewhere in the shop is a bulletin board with tacked-up 3x5 cards and flyers related to gamers and gaming sessions. if no gaming is done at the comic book shop you call or visit, it is still probable that whomever you talk to will know where such gaming sessions is occurring. don't buy any d&d books. heck, don't even bother reading d&d books. sit in on a gaming session... or two. if you is still genuine interested in d&d pnp, then is likely that somebody will let you borrow their books as needed. nerdlings and geeks may be socially retarded little dweebs, but they love showing off just as much as does any cliche high school jock. is no doubt that somebody you meet will happily share with you their encyclopedic knowledge of d&d. the d&d books is expensive. don't buy nothing 'til you see what pnp is actually 'bout. ultimately, pen and paper role-playing is only as good as the group of folks you role-play with. find a good group through trial and error can be tough, but once you gets in touch with the local gaming community it should not be hard to meet folks you would enjoy gaming with. HA! Good Fun!

troika showed us screenies from toee that "proved" game had choices and consequences. whatever you folks think you is knowing 'bout choices and consequences in aod based on a handful of screenies and vd promises is less grounded in reality and more 'bout faith. is nothing wrong with faith, but is impossible to argue with a zealot. is true because you Believe it to be true, and not 'cause you has seen anything more substantial or more reliable from vd. btw, vinnie thought that toee were a swell game. vinnie is a codexian who gots a near fanatical devotion to fallout. he gots all the arrogance tim cain had, without similar experience. even so, 'cause he is a familiar name to the hardcore fallout fans, and 'cause he gots same pretensions as the Almighty Cain, the faithful believes in vd. without cain, who else does the faithful got? picture a drowning man... middle of ocean. lungs is already partially full o' water and he can't keep head above water. panic. the man sees a small piece o' waterlogged driftwood out of the corner of his salt-stung eye... tears, terror and the deep blue sea. what is the chances that the drowning man does not grasp at the driftwood in hopes of miraculous salvation? is no way a small piece o' water-logged driftwood could support a man's weight and keep him afloat. the fear-crazed drowning man knows that the piece o' wood cannot possibly prevent all too imminent death. even so, what is chances that the man does not reach out for that piece o' wood... piece o' hope? vd is saying the right things to the right people, but he gots limited experience and a laughable budget... and so far his screenies and samples is pretty uninspired. even so, perhaps he is that small piece o' driftwood that offers salvation to a drowning man. some people is gonna hold onto faith just as long as they possibly can. and why not? is not rational or reasonable, but if you folks feels like you not got any other option, then why not defend? if not defend vd and aod, then you is giving up on lastest and bestest hope, no? *shrug* can't do it. Gromnir can't find no faith in aod and vinnie. perhaps we ain't as disappointed with current games as is some of you. perhaps we not got same kinda appreciation for fallout and the cain legacy. perhaps we is a natural cynic. whatever. aod is an indie game from an inexperienced developer who is making same promises as virtual every other developer of crpgs from past 15 years, but he gots less resources with which to achieve goals. screens and writing sample released so far don't inspire much confidence and a full-price release from a developer with no genuine qa makes us leery of initial offering being little more than a glorified beta. like the rest of you, Gromnir is a fan of crpgs, so we want vinnie to succeed... can only benefit if we gets a good new crpg to play. 'course, our suspicion won't make aod any better than will your faith. at the end of the day it not matter if you got faith and we don't. am curious where the faith comes from, but am s'posing it not do no harm. HA! Good Fun!

am always concerned 'bout bugs with a small developer who gots no publisher relationship. am doubtful that iron tower gots a serious qa department established. lord knows they is unlikely to have resources to serious test their product on a bunch o' different computer hardware configurations pre-release. an open beta call will help, but will be enough? 'course, so much depends on how aod actual eventual gets published. qa is a tough racket for even a big publisher working with an experienced developer. am seeming to recall that one o' the most significant contributions fergie made to fledgling bioware were pretty much establishing their qa. does iron tower have a fergie helping 'em out? didn't aristes do some qa for obsidian? perhaps you can lend a hand. HA! Good Fun!

"You were still stuck on the charity thing, because it's the only thing you had to try to save face, even when I started explicitly referring to BioWare and IST" a blatant misrepresentation coupled with a somewhat pointless observation. first, the charity aspect were only 1/2 our argument... and is still valid. really. why you thought to analogize commercial product to charity still baffles us. regardless, whether is charity or not, expectations not in any way change character or quality o' the game in question. you can dance 'round that point all day long... make "human nature"claims or some other nonsense. if is unjust or irrational to judge different based on misplaced expectations, then explain with "human nature" is, at best, a cop out. also, as we noted before, we didn't bother reading once you got repetitive, so references to ist(?) and bioware is lost on us in this context. you think we were joking when we said we ignored? HA! regardless, we got your point, but it were... pointless. is one reason why others has abandoned the position, including your oft used example of crashgirl. no longer insists that expectations is lowered 'cause o' developer limitations and handicaps. too bad you can't be equal self-honest. "If it was Peter Molyneux making the same claims as Vincent Dweller, people would assume they were bull****. It's just odd when you get folks like the codex crowd who are known for being so angry and cynical but can turn around and seem so naive and trusting." is exactly the kinda thing that Gromnir is referencing. is a double standard at work. the Worst justification we got for the double-standard is that iron tower has less resources. 'cause iron tower has less experience and less resources, they is held to a lower standard of review. crazy, no? as you note, given how the rabid codexian dogs lash out at the majority o' developers, it is sad to see 'em give vinnie the benefit of the doubt. take vinnie's word in spite of his lack of experience and the pedestrian screenies and writing examples provided thus far? why? some o' the folks who has high hopes for aod has been merciless regarding other smallish indie developers, so am thinking the "underdog defense" bit is unlikely. is possible that some o' the aod fans is suffering from a traditional appeal to arrogance/snobbery ploy... vinnie makes claims that he is gonna do it right, unlike everybody else, and some folks wanna believe. more arrogant and pretentious iron tower sounds, the more support they get from the "hard core"contingent. don't underestimate an appeal to snobbery. vinnie can talk 'bout choices and consequences til he is blue in face, but is mostly empty promises at this point. troika showed us similar stuff with toee. the thing is that the snob appeal also serves to insulate iron tower from criticisms of writing and graphics... 'cause only the mainstream hax0r pre-pubescent twitch gamers is genuine concerned 'bout the graphics o' a game, and as for writing, vinnie is choosing freedom over the tyranny of the writer's plot, so if writing seems bad, that is only 'cause you ain't hard core enough. *shrug* has been more than a few justifications supplied, but all seem to assume a sorta willful disregard of rationality... the Faith in aod seems odd given what has been provided so far. HA! Good Fun!

"Of course not. Because you failed to understand what I was demonstrating with it. " fact that we disagree hardly equals lack of understanding... and am gonna point out that even crashgirl altered her position. analogize to gamer expectations never did work. refusal to give you some common ground to explain why your analogy works? yeah, Gromnir were uncompromising... but your analogy... sucked. HA! Good Fun!

"You can hit them with all the reason and logic you want, but you're just ignoring the fact that they're human, and are going to exhibit the irrationalities human beings have." self-directed irony? your clarification is as follows: people is unfair and irrational. sorry, but that not change nothing if Gromnir's complaint is that folks is being unfair and irrational. regardless, the charity analogy simply not work... multiple levels. "And what are we arguing about then? I don't think anyone here would judge the game differently from any other game." actually, is numerous folks who said just that... though there has been some clarification... and the "people is people" shtick got thrown into the mix too. you probable hate in books and movies when the explanation for character 'A' killing his wife, or embezzling $1 million, or developing a virus that is capable o' wiping out humanity is... people is irrational. kinda leaves you all empty when an author goes that route, no? HA! Good Fun!

we seen a few posts where you use the charity thing... didn't need yet another to clarify. just 'cause crash is working under same false assumptions not win you no points neither. aristes thinks games should be judged honestly and on the merits. purkake thinks vinnie is nuts if aod is full price. skuld questions why "good" is different depending on splash screen content. *shrug* charity had no place and resources available has no relevance. game is good or bad 'cause o' how it plays and not 'cause o' obstacles faced by developer. does Gromnir hope that a small indie developer can compete with the big boys? yes. does we root for the underdog? yes. however, am gonna be no less demanding o' iron tower than any other developer... 'cause it not matter what name shows up on splash screen. graphics is not "good, under the circumstances." bah. is a reason we had alan on ignore... sadly our script blocker blocked our alan block. HA! Good Fun!

"You can stay on strawman argument" clearly alan not going for irony, 'specially after your recent criticism o' Gromnir regarding irony... which perhaps makes more/less ironic. *shrug* didn't get any further. HA! Good Fun!

if vinnie charges $10, am doubting you see any complaints. sure, the graphics will still be fugly and the writing will be pedestrian, but what do you expect for $10, right? 'course, this is far different reasoning than we see 'bove, no? reduced price makes acceptable that graphics is fugly and writing is pedestrian. from such a perspective it ain't lack o' developer resources that makes okie dokie, but the pricing. HA! Good Fun! ps keep in mind that last we heard, steam were a no-go for aod. gotta go traditional disk route? if so, some of aod pricing is fixed... am recalling developers telling us that for a typical game, actual development is less than half total budget. package and distribution alone is probable more than 1/2 budget... which is why small developers gotta partner up with publishers who gots resources necessary for such stuff. in absence o' digital-download you should expect a substantial price tag.

that makes sense. is aod gonna be $10 or 1/5 the cost of dragon age? am perfectly willing to give lower standard to aod if they is charging considerable reduced purchase price. is why we compared cars o' similar price... 'cause most pcrpgs is released with same or similar price, regardless of quality. will aod be different? HA! Good Fun!

"No one expects technically cutting edge graphics, because a) It's not a priority to people following this game" fine... good. 'course some of the folks not concerned 'bout aod graphics has slammed graphics in other games with superior graphics. is fair? if graphics ain't important, then there should be some honesty from folks that they were a) talking out their arse when they complained 'bout other games, or b) they is cutting aod slack for no good reason. how on earth does obstacles faced by developer make game more or less enjoyable? " b) There's no way to do it on a 0 budget, or even on a huge budget is forementioned priorities are also fulfilled." am gonna call bs on this. lack o' budget ain't a worthy excuse. give Bob $1000 to develop a game. Bob charges typical pc crpg price. why on earth does Bob's Game get a different standard 'cause of his budget? Gromnir not Care 'bout Bob's budget or his difficulties... not when we is evaluating the quality o' the game. Graphics don't matter? fine. is okay. 'course, there is people arguing that aodf graphics is great (HA!) or they has slammed other, better games for graphic shortcomings while giving aod a pass. is manifestly unfair. HA! Good Fun!

Would the game still be 'good' if I edited out the Iron Tower splash screen and dropped a Bioware or Bethesda one in there? finally, somebody who is talking sense. am not certain how we got to point where it is considered odd that a similar priced games should be judged on merits rather than pathos. HA! Good Fun!

Why would someone hold World of Goo up to the same standards as Half-Life 2? That's ridiculous, you expect both of them to work and be fun, but that's about it. you people is bass ackwards. buy a car. probably you compare multiple cars in same/similar price range that fulfill certain requirements/needs. when has you Evar considered the working conditions in auto plant, or the resources a car maker has available to 'em. you want the "best" car for your money, and it not make a whole heck of a lot of difference that auto X were a start-up company and company Y were established. in point o' fact, you is probable more likely to give your car purchase dollar to the established co. with the good rep as 'posed to some new venture. but games is different? if aod were a car, you would expect it to either be Better than similar competition, or sold at a reduced price, no? lack o' reputation decreases desirability and the car manufacturer gotta do something to sweeten deal. even so, you folks is doing backwards... 'cause developer gots less resources and experience you is willing to consider their work "good" even if it not measure up to the competition... which is complete nuts. is disposable income, so you can do with it what you will, but Gromnir ain't gonna treat vinnie like a special olympics participant... deserves a hug just for running. iron tower is developing a commercial game, and if is priced similar to competition, then it should be judged same... on the merits and not based on sympathy. iwd:how were crap. turns out that there were some serious resource limitations that contributed to iwd:how crappiness. did game sudden become better 'cause Gromnir discovered that bis didn't commit necessary resources? sure, we felt sympathy for the developers, but our gameplaying experience were not improved 'cause we knew that resources were inadequate. one o' the big complaints 'bout how were its cost... were near full-game price, but were short and terrible. short and terrible at half-price is one thing, but short and terrible at full price is ridiculous. 'course you folks wanna turn typical consumer reasoning upside down, so perhaps you were mystified by the complaints directed at how. HA! Good Fun!

"So what you're saying is that if the Billionaire didn't pony up the money, and say, matched what the paupers donated, you'd be disappointed in the billionaire because you were, say, expecting a lot more from him?" talk 'bout unclear on the concept. 1) aod is NOT a charity. is not 'bout intentions or good will or warm fuzzy. aod is a Luxury Item... is a game being made for commercial reasons and being sold to people with disposable income. analogize to charity? HA! fine. vinnie and aod is analogous to a charity case... That at least makes some sense as to why vinnie and aod gets some sorta special break. 2) $10 dollars spends same, no matter where you get it from. Gromnir is on the board of a non-profit organization that provides free and low cost medical and counseling services. a $10 donation from Bill Gates goes just as far in paying our electric bill as does $10 from the guy standing on street corner waving his "Open House" banner in +100 degree heat. the usefulness o' the donation not change one bit relative to the donor's means. expectations got Zero to do with the end value o' the donation. it was a stoopid analogy... honest. am glad you is sticking with it. HA! Good Fun!

if Gromnir is the charity, depending on money, we would rather have 1 billionaire donate a million bucks than 100 paupers donate $10 apiece. the $10 may be more Meaningful from perspective of getting into heaven, but ask anybody who runs a charity if they want 100 paupers with $10 or 1 billionaire with 1 million. this is not a touchy-feely issue, and if alan wants to create ridiculous analogies that ain't analogous, that is fine... but we not gotta buy into the mularkey. aod is a commercial product. am not caring if the guy who built our toaster oven is a billionaire or unemployed... am only concerned 'bout how it works. argue that the unemployed guy's toaster oven is "better" simply 'cause it were crafted by somebody from more distressed background or limited means? find out tomorrow that you got a serious and potential fatal disease. does you go to some unemployed doctor to give him a chance... give him a break? or does you find the best damned doctor you can afford, regardless of race, color, creed, national origin etc. ? you wanna compare value of services and goods? gots nothing whatsoever to do with paupers and billionaires donating cash. you wanna stand at finish line and give vinnie a big hug for running a good race? great. that is what they does at special olympics, and it is a genuinely inspiring thing to watch. nevertheless, you tell us that Bill Stewart, the 15 year old with down syndrome who ran 100m in 25 seconds is a great runner and we will call you a liar. try not to confuse yourselves with nonsense morality issues that got no place in this discussion. HA! Good Fun!

that was Gromnir's point. redux: "fact that you not expect much of art is hardly a reason for the rest of us to give 'em a free pass neither. is this gonna be a commercial release? if so, then why they get some sorta reduced standard? has iron tower announced discounted pricing 'cause none o 'em is artistic inclined? because the art is fugly, they better do the other stuff better... and so far we ain't seen better from the writing neither. give 'em lower standard on writing too 'cause vinnie ain't a writer?" level o' expectation not change the quality or lack o' quality o' a game. nevertheless, 'cause vinnie gots no resume he gets a pass on graphics and writing and what else? for the typical commercial product, if some newb wants to break into an established market, he gotta do better or cheaper. is aod gonna be cheaper? if not... *shrug*. So why is games different? why is aod different? why does reduced expectations result in paradox o' higher anticipation? wouldn't make sense if we were talking 'bout toaster ovens or cars, but somehow games is different? fugly is fugly no matter if is iron tower or obsidian. hackneyed writing is no more or less hackneyed 'cause avellone did as 'posed to vinnie. am fully recognizing that there is a differing level o' expectation, but we ain't talking 'bout watching your son play tee-ball... or whatever is the euro-equivalent. this ain't the special olympics neither. expectation shouldn't make no difference when deciding good v. bad of a commercial product. wanna give vinnie a special olympics medal for his efforts? fine, but don't say "good" 'less it is. "Do you hold the unemployed man by the same standards as the billionaire?" yes. is that a trick question? HA! Good Fun!

battlezone and warhammer: dark omens were excellent games that some people has heard of, but virtual nobody played. HA! Good Fun!

saying that the graphics not bother you is not the same thing as Gromnir is talking 'bout. personally, graphics is one o' the less important factors for Gromnir, but that not change fact that we can see that aod graphics... suck. if bis or bio made a game and graphics looked like aod's, there would be a considerable 'mount o' criticism directed their way. likewise, we has seen bio, bis and troika promise similar stuff to what iron tower promises... so why the optimism for iron tower and the caution for bio, bis and troika? vinnie's lack of experience makes him more believable? 'course we gotta admit that some small segment o' fans genuine believe anything developers says during development, and even defend those developers post release when they fails to deliver on promises. am suspecting it gots something to do with emotional investment, but that is just a guess. Gromnir has noted previous that real innovation is gonna probable come from small/new indie developer with a gambler mentality. what is the motivation for an established developer to break formula when the formula would appear to be so successful. is folks like iron tower, folks who cannot compete with big developers in terms o' production values, who is gonna have to be innovative to set selves apart. nevertheless, what has iron tower done to set selves apart so far? posted fugly screenies, revealed some amateurish writing, and made promises. be as enthusiastic or optimistic as you wish to be, but be honest 'bout it at least. btw, obsidian is an indie developer... and so was bio up til recent. am not sure if people is using the term correct. HA! Good Fun!

"Is there some level of expectation we're meant to have for all commercial projects, or for indie projects, that I am 'cutting a break' from?" if such a standard does exist, it should be same for all developers... and we ain't seeing that. "moan" 'bout the art? *chuckle* "good enough" clear is different for aod than it is for other games... am not sure why. am even more concerned that people not seem to realize that they is applying a different standard. HA! Good Fun!

"Feel free to moan about the graphics again, but it looks good enough for me, technically speaking. Art direction is nothing to write home about, but (this might be completely wrong) nobody on the team strikes me as particularly artistically oriented, so it's hard to expect anything else. " fact that you not expect much of art is hardly a reason for the rest of us to give 'em a free pass neither. is this gonna be a commercial release? if so, then why they get some sorta reduced standard? has iron tower announced discounted pricing 'cause none o 'em is artistic inclined? because the art is fugly, they better do the other stuff better... and so far we ain't seen better from the writing neither. give 'em lower standard on writing too 'cause vinnie ain't a writer? am not seeing why folks is cutting aod a break. if bioware were releasing similar screenies and making exact same claims, you folks would be slaughtering 'em... but 'cause it is an indie project spawned by codex it is Totally Awesome. *snort* am gonna wait til we sees more than bad writing and some uninspired and outdated graphics before we get excited... 'cause otherwise all we got is same promises such as we has heard from a dozen different developers over the years... developers who had better resources. 1/2 the game with 2x the pretension? HA! not impressed... yet. maybe is the indie kewl factor, or maybe is codexian predisposition to believe vinnie, but so far the enthusiasm in this thread is hardly proportional to the released material we seen so far. on the positive side, is a relative small and homogenized group posting at iron tower forums... makes easier for developers to consider fan feedback. is one o' the few advantages o' being relative nobodies... ain't no flood o' diverse and conflicting requests with which to contend. have seen some developers make the mistake o' trying to honest cater to the fans... end up with mediocrity. make a game that satisfies everybody will necessarily be incapable o' genuinely impressing anybody. HA! Good Fun!

aod is schrodinger's cat. some small number o' people will spend next year or two in ardent debate over the philosophical implications o' aod impact... or non-impact. 'course, at the end o' the day, regardless o' the debate, you still end up with a dead cat in a box. no 'mount o' gaming pretension is gonna be able to breathe life into the grisly gato. 'course, given two years o' emotional investment, some folks is gonna look at vinnie's mummified feline cadaver, and declare it "Teh Best Kat Evar!" folks with no emotional ties to aod is probable never gonna hear of the indie release o' a dated looking game with terrible qa, or they will be baffled by the fanatics who chose to deify a dead cat... in a box. please, think of the cat. take multi-years and uncountable message board posts to kill a cat? nobody every shows no concern for the senseless killings of schrodinger's cat. HA! Good Fun!

am thinking that the fact that skills were unfathomable worked in bethesda's favor. first time we played through, Gromnir were able to boost virtual every skill to 100 without trying hard. the problem is that we couldn't see much improvement past some seemingly unrecognized point. was left with a vague impression that skills weren't working right, but it were difficult to tell how or why. ultimately we were able to enjoy game in part 'cause the busted mechanics were hidden from view. a tb game with hexes it is easier to see and compare how mechanics is playing out in-game. with fov 3 perspective Gromnir were left with impression that something were wrong with fo skills without being able to clear identify where and when the problems occurred. obsidian faces tougher task. now that busted mechanics is a Known, can the developers simply use same prestidigitation to fool people into thinking that dumping points into small guns past X% is meaningful and useful? skills were unfathomable, now they is ineffable? HA! Good Fun! HA! Good Fun!

"He didn't have a solution. To be fair, he simply said that they were trying a mod that made stimpacks heal over time rather than instantaneously. Kind of like pots in Diablo. To be even more fair, he came clean and said some folks really didn't like it." if bringing up were s'posed to show that Gromnir's resource argument were invalid, then am not seeing point. end up back to where we were when Gromnir suggested that a genuine fix would take resources. "Even without changing the fast travel system at all you can't travel during fights or from inside dungeons" see aristes' comments. is no solution. stockpile at a convenient location and carry max needed. only the casual gamer is affected, 'cause the guy who is exploiting has easy alternatives that has no cost save minor annoyance factor. HA! Good Fun!

so, what is limit in inventory that would solve problem? with insta-travel it is very easy to re-stock. spam use of stims, insta-travel back to your stash. restock. repeat. you is talking 'bout some kinda system that protects those who exploit the system... protect from selves? what makes you think they won't use insta-travel exploit to circumvent limited stock. hell, the first thing the exploiter can do when you get to new area is to take a few insta-travel trips to create a stims supply depo. no doubt is other ways 'round your inventory limit. is not a practical solution. is not a solution that genuine needs a solution, but even if it were, weight and inventory limits won't fix. somebody said they not like arbitrary rules... but impose an arbitrary weight or arbitrary inventory limit is ok? am not recalling the sawyer solution you mentioned earlier... perhaps is better than suggestions we is seeing. HA! Good Fun!

how can you tell Gromnir is worked up? 'cause we tel kel that he is being foolish? HA! kel uses sandpaper 'stead o' toilet paper, 'cause they both is paper. is funny... am enjoying the funny. HA! Good Fun!