Gromnir

I remember reading that they covered their production costs with the initial sales, but that the stock holders weren't satisfied with the numbers and thus considered it a failure. I could be wrong about that, I read it a while ago. Coming from you that's rich. You said the companies want something, I said the consumer wants something too. The companies aren't too broken up about what the consumer wants so why should the consumer care what the companies want? My point exactly, why should we care that they didn't meet their ridiculously high numbers? That doesn't mean we should buy more or pay at a higher price, it means that those people need to reevaluate what kind of profit they can make from games. your characterizations is amusing broad. you is quite terrible at being reasonable. elerond already pointed out the bad logic, so we won't retrace that point, but your notions o' what is acceptable profit is... cute. expecting investors to be reevaluating what is acceptable profit to meet your childish notions is narcissistic and fanciful. briareus, Gromnir and others is telling you the way things is, not the way things should be. after all, game publishers can't run their business on the sarex model of acceptable profits, and lord knows your piracy won't bring 'bout some kinda trotskyist epiphany on the part o' publishers and developers. seriously, how resilient to reason is you gonna be on this matter? is axiomatic that if investors can make more money investing in real estate, or even a savings account or mutual funds, then the shareholder/stockholders/investors who is currently putting their money into game development will find better investments. by definition, any business that sells public stock is in business to make money. your piracy won't change that. if you and every other disgruntled purchaser didn't buy games, that might help change things, but piracy sure won't be the thing to convince publishers that a reasonable rate of return for investors is teh evil. HA! Good Fun!

sure there would. 'pon reflection, is probable an excellent barometers o' mod success. Gromnir tends to be adversarial and uncompromising. if we were looking for mods, we would want ones who didn't becoming gibbering nutters in the face o' our colorful posting style. that being said, we wouldn't normal have brought the tn conflict up at all, 'cause as you note, we has conflicts with many boardies. however, as we said, the rant were complete unexpected. were notable 'cause it were unprovoked. as such, we didn't get into it with him at the time. it were strange. HA! Good Fun!

we didn't realize bruce was so passionate about the Jesuit order. in any event, am thinking a good rule-of-thumb is that anybody that wants to be a moderator is likely a poor choice... not that we believe that bruce were seriously nominating his self. HA! Good Fun!

... congrats? we don't have much dealing with tn, so am guessing that is a good thing for a moderator. on the bad side, only interplay we can recall with tn were a weird seeming rant by him a month or so ago... kinda out-of-left field. seemed to have personal issues with Gromnir. oh well. he wouldn't be the first moderator with... issues. HA! Good Fun!

you is being particularly carefree with the fallacies today. am suspecting it has something to do with your untenable position, but that is a guess. "And I want games to be cheaper, especially now that they are mostly digital, I also want dlc to be reasonably priced (compared to their size) but hey why should they care what I want." non-sequitur, or do you have a point? just posting random nonsense is hardly constructive, but it is becoming a trend. "The problem with that is that they have a funny way of gauging the point at which the game is profitable. A normal person would think that a game would be profitable if it covers it's production cost, but it seems it ain't so." actually, profit and profitable are two separate things. http://www.nma-fallout.com/showthread.php?152662-Briareus-speaks-out&p=3024645&viewfull=1#post3024645 is just one example. the publisher needs investors, and investors need a far better return than simple profit to make their high-risk investment profitable. is any of this getting through? HA! Good Fun! ps for folks that don't know, briareus were a black isle developer

Without a doubt. you haven't realized yet that this observation is not helping you? *chuckle* HA! Good Fun!

You wanna say they went out of businesses because of piracy? ignoring your fallacy for the nonce, we will observe that given the obvious high-risk nature o' game development and publishing, piracy clear ain't helping. so' 'tween your desire to indulge in info piracy and the developer/publisher desire for you to stop, we thinks it is obvious that the creator o' the info is maintaining the moral high-ground. duh. HA! Good Fun!

Now that is a load of BS. It's just the accounting arithmetic all large companies do to avoid large taxes. I mean Warner Bros claimed a loss on the lord of the rings movies... Every Hollywood production company claims a loss on their movies, I'm sure it's the same with game publishers. *chuckle* is good that you know better. but hey, am betting you get loads o' mileage from the lord o' the rings lawsuit. HA! Good Fun! ps for fun, try google to take a looksee at video game publishers that has gone outta business in last 10 years.

Actually I misunderstood your post I asked my question on; re-reading and with this further discussion I see you're saying, regarding the big publishers - "they make enough money now to continue creating games, so the only loss is to their profit margin which doesn't (typically) get invested in game development but lines investors/owners pockets" whereas I read it as "they have enough money now to make games, it doesn't matter if they make any more money". So a total reading comprehension fail on my part. its still bs. most large publishers lose money on a majority o' their games-- is a handful of successful titles that keeps the light turned on. also, lining the pockets o' investors is what makes the whole system work. if a publisher makes investor no more money than the investor would see from an ordinary savings account or even mutual funds, what is the motivation to invest in riskier game publishing ventures? decrease money that would otherwise go to investors decreases investor motivation to be investing in games development and publishing. am sure you can see how that impacts future game development, yes? HA! Good Fun!

Are you aware that Netflix, Amazon, Hulu is not available to more than 6 billions of people living on this planet? You are really missing the point. More than half of those people live in poverty. Is their access to the latest Game of Thrones episode really the most important issue? We are talking about entertainment. Stop trying to make it into some grand social justice issue. I am not going to oppose you but culture or entertainment is part of life, if you would earn just enough money to buy food/housing. would you rest of the day stare into wall if you can almost for free watch some movie on internet? Man cannot live by bread alone actual quote is as follows: "it is written: ‘man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." am not sure the passage is working for you the way you think it does. HA! Good Fun!

oh, the fundamental wrong o' information piracy is ridiculous old. without paying, a couple o' guys sneak into a tent to watch melanie the magnificent do her dance of twelve veils. even before codified notions o' theft or trespass, it were kinda obvious that the sneaks were doing something wrong. our petty voyeurs might complain that melanie weren't all that magnificent and that the ticket prices were ridiculous. far less likely they might observe that melanie were a slave and that their sneakiness were a protests 'gainst the way in which the performer were being exploited. heck, is not as if our sneaks stole anything and they weren't even preventing any paying customers from seeing melanie. after seeing melanie the first time they might agree that the show were worth the cost o' admission and so they were gonna pay to see her next time, honest. in fact, their viewing were creating an additional advertising opportunity for the show-- melanie and her promoters oughta' thank the sneaks for their help. etc. is old stuff we is talking 'bout. ridiculous old. the excuses is as lame today as they were in prehistory. HA! Good Fun!

that is just the kinda nonsense that gets threads pruned. is nothing wrong with you being hurt or sensitive or whatever, but be careful o' doing this kinda silliness where it is gonna get threads closed. "I was referring to exploiting the morality of judges or jurors to side with your preferred side in a trial, not using a trial to decide upon the morality of animancy. " yeah, as we said, real trials is bad for that kinda thing, particularly criminal trials. but, as is a game, no doubt you could do all kinda stuff that need not be least realistic. depending on what you mean by "exploiting" in reference to judges and jurors, we can see wonderfully moral ambiguous actions used to influence trial outcomes that might seem like hypocrisy in light o' your ultimate goal. am just not a fan o' trials though as we has too much experience with such. in any event, moral charged scenarios should present themselves. we would be disappointed if obsidian didn't use such. the cooperation and/or freedom o' the evil or complete amoral animancer is your only hope of ending the threat of the, "Undead (that) abound in Heritage Hill"? sounds doable. perhaps long term results o' helping animancer pose greater threat than the undead rampaging in one locale? or... whatever. for obsidian to include such obviously fertile soil for moral conundrum and then not til that field would be almost criminal. HA! Good Fun!

well, that is just... asinine. thanks for clarifying however. HA! Good Fun!

*eye roll* this game is being sold, in part, as a re-imagining o' bg2 and the ie games. obsidian is not being shy 'bout their black isle history. what thin veiled hypocrisy it would be to ignore the bad while lauding the good. ... and am not having the foggiest notion o' what, "put your money where your mouth is" means in the present context. am not sure that phrase means what you think it does. HA! Good Fun!

real trials is horrible venues for delving into morality, but in a game it could work. HA! Good Fun!

shush. don't you realize that it is complete unfair that some folks can afford ferraris and private jets? is nothing we can do about such injustice, but piracy helps level the playing field, if only a smidgen. no longer will expensive day one releases o' software be enjoyed only by the rich. sure, we could says that, particularly for games, all one needs do is wait a year and the title will likely be 50% as expensive, but is that a hurdle the damned bourgeois need consider? no! is manifest inequitable, and folks in eastern europe and southeast asia have no choice but to pirate games and movies in their fight to make the world a better place for puppies, grandmothers and cancer patients. does shadysands have something against cancer patients, grandmothers and puppies? HA! Good Fun! Not sure if that was good topic for irony Ha! Stupid Fun! actually, given the nature o' the arguments in favor o' piracy, am thinking irony is particular appropriate. HA! Good Fun!

*sigh* the bis games were delayed 'cause o' the developers working on the games couldn't make deadlines. many o' the black isle guys were the same as were working on poe. the guys in charge at obsidian were the guys running the development side o' things at bis. even the name obsidian is clear meant to make us recognize their links to black isle, so to pretend no such link exists is ridiculous. someyou body not seem to clear on facts, and it ain't Gromnir. oh, and if list alll the bis folks not at obsidian, we will once again noe all the turnover in the industry. many of the folks who were at obsidian during development of kotor2 ain't their now, but the guys running things is the same. you wanna pretend that the obsidian guys didn't develop games previous to obsidian? HA! but okie dokie. kotor2 were obsidian and yeah, it does speak to their abilities as a business organization. the only positive 'bout the failures o' kotor2 were that the most glaring failure were so simple and obvious that it is unlikely they ever repeat it. nwn2 were delayed. motb were delayed. soz... no idea. can't recall. stick of truth were delayed multiple times and it were still a buggy mess. etc. you got a funny kinda recollection for facts. "history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." wanna blame on publishers? *chuckle* if happens every time, regardless o' publisher? and obsidian is free to makes the contract with the publishers. HA! Good Fun!

was our thinking that fire emblem games were squad-based tactics/strategy rpg games with some very limited rpg elements beyond the character development/leveling options. were for hand-helds. is the new fire emblem more o' a traditional jrpg? honest question as we hasn't played a fire emblem game since... fire emblem... the one from 2003/4ish. HA! Good Fun!

shush. don't you realize that it is complete unfair that some folks can afford ferraris and private jets? is nothing we can do about such injustice, but piracy helps level the playing field, if only a smidgen. no longer will expensive day one releases o' software be enjoyed only by the rich. sure, we could says that, particularly for games, all one needs do is wait a year and the title will likely be 50% as expensive, but is that a hurdle the damned bourgeois need consider? no! is manifest inequitable, and folks in eastern europe and southeast asia have no choice but to pirate games and movies in their fight to make the world a better place for puppies, grandmothers and cancer patients. does shadysands have something against cancer patients, grandmothers and puppies? HA! Good Fun!

as you is largely parroting what Gromnir (and others) said earlier in this thread, who are we to argue? however, we once again note that souls makes different. we is discussing morality, no? HA! Good Fun!

... imagine the sound of Gromnir's jaw hitting the floor. yes, ultimately is the publisher that decides when a game is released, but you is bug-nut crazy if you think it was interplay that delayed iwd development so that it were released same time as diablo... or any o' the other dozen or so delayed releases. c'mon. oh, and the "unreasonable" stuff from kotor2 is indicative o' what we were saying 'bout the importance o' business and management in a game development. the brobdingnagian failure to get an extension and its terms in writing were the kinda thing that should be taught in all o' those game developer schools as an object lesson in fail. obsidian can't blame anybody this time. will be interesting. HA! Good Fun! ps we will concede that the final delay for ps:t were out of developer hands as it were a gold failure. am never even having heard o' such a thing since then. but that were only the final delay, and it were brief.

given the amount of turnover we typically sees in the game industry, am thinking some o' you is vastly overstating the teamwork aspect. seems smarter to keep some core people and develop a system that is flexible and built on a proven infrastructure. that way your team don't collapse every time you lose a key person... or two. Gromnir don't do software, but that is how we do things in the business world. that being said, even with their super-team intact, obsidian has never met an announced target release... 'least none that we can recall. honestly, we didn't follow ds 3 at all, so we cannot speak to that development, and we honest don't recall soz release dates. heck, obsidian messed with vaunted team chemistry and brought in tim cain.... and he has an even worse history when it comes to release dates and bugged games. "history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." HA! Good Fun!

"Project director Brian Fargo has reassembled key team members from the original Wasteland: Alan Pavlish, Michael A. Stackpole, Ken St. Andre and Liz Danforth,[21] as well as the early Fallout games' designer Jason Anderson (Anderson, however, left the company in December 2010).[22] The composer Mark Morgan, who created the soundtracks for Fallout and Fallout 2, was also hired to compose music for the game.[23]" is a crap wiki quote, but even Gromnir recognizes those names. and am not sure you understand what we mean by infrastructure. when you run a company, there is all kinda infrastructure you need to keep things running. from obvious business stuff such as accounting, to game-specific aspects such as QA... am recalling that uncle feargus mentioned that one o' his most important contributions to bioware's development o' baldur's gate were helping set up their QA. game resources? *chuckle* is funny you make note o' that seeing as how virtual every black isle/obsidian game that is gonna appeal to poe fans were built on some other developer's engine: ps:t. iwd, how, tials of the luremaster, iwd2, kotor2, neverwinter nights 2, neverwinter 2: motb, storm of zehir and fallout: new vegas. quite the list, no? heck the cancelled TORN were being built on a licensed engine. take away all the games that black isle/obsidian built on some other guy's engine and what you got? HA! Good Fun! ps alpha protocol were unreal 3, yes? forgot that one.

InXile was not an RPG studio prior to Kickstarter, not even remotely. Sure, there's Brian Fargo, but he's a CEO, not a game designer. It's very different from the dev team behind Pillars, who have made this type of game (realtime with pause narrative-focused party-based RPG) numerous times before, be it at Black Isle or Obsidian. dunno, but we did a quick looksee at the guys working at inxile and many o' them worked on the original wasteland-- is folks who got Loads o' experience in the industry. inxile itself has 'been 'round for a decade and so they got all the basic infrastructure o' an established game developer. these guys is hardly a bunch o' n00bs playing at being game developers. look at it a different way: is a bunch o' guys working on wasteland 2 that if we sudden heard obsidian had hired them, we would expect this board to spawn multiple new threads talking 'bout what a great addition those folks would be to the poe team. HA! Good Fun!

lack of videos and screenies don't bother us and do not make us believe poe is delayed. as we noted above, wasteland 2 looked pretty darn raw in early videos and screenies. perhaps obsidian simply don't wanna have to explain over and over that game ain't finished. nevertheless, am trying to think of a game that were released in the initial time-frame offered to the public. torn were cancelled by black isle a mere 6 months before what woulda been the s'posed release date we had been given. after torn were cancelled we were informed of all the problems that development faced, but such stuff were unknown to us right up until surprising announcement o' cancellation. iwd, which were a super-quicky development with a clear and obvious goal o' getting released before diablo 2 and bg2, took a few extra months... and had misfortune of being released at same time as diablo 2. oops. planescape had some funny delays, and some kinda mix-up with the gold as well. more recent, how many delays did obsidian face with stick-of-truth? after torn and iwd, black isle stopped giving release dates. they would say that they were "shooting for a Q3 release," or something similar. "it will be done when it is done." *chuckle* 'course that were nonsense for us on the boards. whether it were announced to us as a release date, the publisher were still giving retailers target dates n' such as those retailers were wanting to make guesstimates 'bout inventory and shelf-space 'n such. of course we would discover the dates given to retailers, soooooo... kickstarters is different though. no publisher. wasteland 2 were 'posed to be released october last year, yes? now is august this year. inxile may be a new company, but the guys making the game are industry vets. *shrug* Gromnir would be very surprised if poe actual were released by end of 2014 as that would make it near unique for a obsidian/black isle development released in a timely fashion. at the least, we suspect they use the "winter 2014" to potentially stretch to march 20, 2015 as that is the first day o' spring. what is the genuine motivation to hit their target release date? is not as if they is being paid by a publisher for meeting various development thresholds. and again, obsidian has a rep for buggy releases. if they take a couple extra months to get poe relative stable, am thinking it will be time well spent... especially as we cannot think of another crpg release for winter of 2014 so no competition for nerdling dollars. HA! Good Fun!