Gromnir

you can ask any question you wish, but if it don't present a genuine problem, it isn't actual relevant. if you wanna imagine problems, that is ok too, as you said, it is an open forum, but the mere fact that the game mechanics is combat focused does not preclude role-play. any original d&d and ad&d pnp player can tell you that combat focused mechanics is hardly sending mixed signals about the importance o' role-play in such games... though troika didn't seem to understand this when making toee. regardless, ps:t highlights the fact that combat skewed mechanics does not limit rp options, and as already noted, PoE adds far more rp mechanics than existed naturally in ps:t. also, your lack o' imagination regarding PoE ability checks is amusing but illustrative. am thinking you clear ain't trying to be fair. as we said, ps:t did far more with far less regardless. aside, am thinking chrisA were suffering from the schadenfreude josh mentioned in quoted portion earlier. after all, he took swords out o' ps:t because? he also made wisdom the clear Win ability score in spite of the fact that you could not play as a cleric. the horrible balance o' ps:t, in spite of the availability o' non-traditional ie game role-play solutions to quests were exemplified by the fact that once you know that playing a high wisdom (with emphasis on charisma and intelligence) no other builds were genuine worth playing in subsequent runs through o' ps:t. play a straight vanilla fighter in ps:t with crappy wisdom and charisma? why? quest xp mighta helped... a bit, but game were woeful unbalanced. HA! Good Fun!

It was my experience that grandmastery in bows was hardly needed anyway. I found that my level 2-3 archer thief (pure thief, proficient with shortbows) was not only doing more damage but was tactically far more useful than any of my melee classes. For all the power of those pesky Quadratic mages, a Baldur's Gate party where five of your party are skilled with bows will destroy just about everything that is in the vanilla game that has flesh on its bones. My experience of PoE so far (which is limited due to my frequent, 32-bit, crashes) is that ranged characters are nowhere near as powerful as they were in BG. grandmastery wasn't needed. however, bis tried to do some things to curb bow power. one was addressing bow proficiency. sensuki mentions totsc levels, but of course even with totsc, iwd levels were higher. regardless, the iwd developers were quite aware that bows in bg were silly powerful, thus they tried making changes. HA! Good Fun!

This is a good post, IMO. The problem I personally have with the game as presented so far isn't so much that I think there's an inherent flaw with quest-only XP. In fact, I kind of like the idea of quest-only XP. But to me, the game is sending mixed signals with the design and mechanics. I still can't grasp the thinking behind giving no reward for combat kills, while every ability, spell, and talent in the game that I've seen so far is oriented toward making the character better at... killing and combat. If the whole idea is to give you alternate methods of solving quests and no matter how you do it, you get the same XP award, then why are there no talents, spells, abilities or even racial and class perks that will help you build a character that can be more effective at solving quests without combat? ***Thank you for you attention while I beat this dead nag to a fine paste.*** even if you see "mixed signals" am not seeing a genuine relevant question. sure, the ie games were squad-based tactical combat games with rpg elements. is not surprising that when obsidian attempts to recreate a game that feels like the ie games, the mechanics will be combat focused. the d&d mechanics used in ps:t were also combat focused, but it would be myopic to suggest that combat were the focus of ps:t. similarly, in spite of the fact that people seem extreme dismissive o' the relative mechanical relevance o' ability scores, Gromnir has found even in the small sampling o' encounters in the beta, non-combat aspects is extreme important. perception and intellect don't show up in combat logs, but they has already been significant in Gromnir resolving quests. in PoE, in addition to fireballs and battle axes and accuracy and deflection, there is intellect, resolve, lore, mechanics and other aspects o' the game that can lead to successful quest completion. is many o' the same folks making PoE as made ps:t. PoE has far more mechanical options for non combat resolutions than did ps:t and yet we can only hope PoE does similar as ps:t with non-combat quest resolutions... and quest based xp makes it far easier for the developers to award players appropriate and proportional for non-combat actions than ps:t ever did. and lord knows we don't want specific xp awards for exploration. that would be a personal nightmare for Gromnir as it would be recollecting the worst aspects of BG. wandering through largely empty wilderness maps, hoping we might run into a mob o' kobolds or gnolls or wolves just to have made the past thirty minutes of wandering relevant. to actual have some kinda xp pay-out to give value to such nonsense is... disturbing. exploration should not be a reward objective. compelling quests discovered and completed is what we look forward to, and if some exploration makes such questing more fulfilling, then so be it, but exploration xp? *shudder* HA! Good Fun!

am assuming you have been busy with rl the past couple years? hope all is well. Gromnir was gone from the boards for about 18 months as well. in any event, we suspect that the most telling aspect o' the current debate is the absolute silence from the obsidian developers regarding the current squabble over the xp mechanic. absolute nothing has been added to the dialogue by boardies, so the developers feel they have no need to respond to what is essentially... noise. in any event, we hope to see you post more frequent... right up until you say something we disagree with. joke. we joke. HA! Good Fun!

that is a fair point. sadly for you, the folks working on the game is cain and sawyer and the obsinaties, nevertheless, am thinking you would get more mileage if you could, "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player." otherwise all you got is a gut feeling that runs contrary to the opinions o' the folks actual working on PoE. you can see how such a position would not be particular compelling, yes? but flog away, is your time and the horse is dead, so he/she won't care. to greyfox: the developers is very much aware that combat will represent the majority of gameplay, which is precisely why an xp mechanic that does not favor combat is invaluable in a ROLE-PLAY game that seeks to make all builds equal viable. ... where is the disconnect? HA! Good Fun!

... "The only issue addressed here is Obsidian not wanting to do nor having the time(i guess) to add a better/more in-depth XP system." a better system than one that guarantees that regardless o' how a player chooses to resolve a quest or task, they will all be afforded the same xp, thus encouraging no single playstyle over another? "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player." show us. sorry, you folks is not making sense. you may wish to believe that xp systems that provide superior xp rewards for particular actions will have negligible impact on the choices players make in character development and in game, but the developers who actually gets to witness qa results and feedback from many gameplay experiences disagree with you. but again, the horse is dead. am only curious what is preventing some small group o' very sincere but misguided folks from failing to recognize what seems so obvious to folks such as Gromnir... and the obsidian developers... and the troika developers such as cain. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

That's not the reason why they eliminated Kill XP. So why bring it up? This game has a level cap. Which means double-dipping the XP rewards will only ever work until it can't anymore. And then after that everything will be equal for everyone regardless of how they got to the cap. sure it is part o' the reason. you haven't been paying attention. when developers speak o' how players will exploit or game the xp system, Gromnir example is exactly what they is talking about. this is getting bizarre... "We all understand the concept. Nobody is unaware of the concept. We got it, you like the concept. No matter what you do, or how you play, everybody is the same. We are all the same. Huzzah! Sameness. The more ingenious you are when tackling the problem is rewarded exactly the same as a derp derp sword jockey. Nothing like the smell of sameness in the morning." yes. congrats. you see wrongness with a Role Play Game that makes alternative Role Play Choices equally viable? we hope not. smell o' sameness o' reward in a role-play game that we might wanna actual replay again at some point in the future is a Good thing, not something worthy o' derision and scorn. ... somebody cue the outer limits theme music, please. HA! Good Fun! ​ps 'cause we know how unobservant stun may be, am not saying the only reason for use of quest xp is to prevent exploitation or gaming of xp system, but it is a factor that has been commented 'pon by developers.

hey, good for you all, but developers has actual observed the behavior o' players and they note that Gromnir's behavior is common. people will go back and get the XP win option if there is such an option. *shrug* doesn't matter though, does it? quest xp complete negates the issue entirely. regardless o' playstyle, we get same xp. that realization will sink in eventually. ... may take a little longer to realize that even nietzsche wouldn't weep for this horse. you folks has beat the corpse into a pulpy mass in spite o' fact that multiple developers has given rationales for the superiority o' quest, including cain and sawyer. you also ignore that as this game is in beta, so the issue is no longer relevant for this game. and most important, you continue to ignore the challenge posed: "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player." manage to come up with a better mousetrap and no doubt obsidian will applaud your efforts. HA! Good Fun!

ah, our bad. ziets gets fanfare around here and we honestly don't know much o' him other than motb... which we thought were hit and miss. HA! Good Fun! ps am thinking we keep spelling his name incorrect too. bad on us for that at least.

That's not possible. You can't divide by zero. lol *pats stun on head* its ok, mean old Gromnir won't hurt you. we were chastised by mods so now you gets the special kid treatment. have a cookie and some juice and am sure everything will seem better in the morning. we will note that going this route does threaten thread lockage, so try and say something relevant. zeits worked on troika vampire game, yes? weren't that quest xp? am not recalling. guess he couldn't even convince the folks at troika o' his views on the subject. 'course, we didn't play the vampire game, so perhaps we is wrong that it used quest xp. "Also how would something all of the sudden stop being fun because you realized someone else had more experience points than your digital character did in a SP game when you were previously having a blast?" well, that is obvious. if we realize that we is gonna be handicapping our player by continuing to use stealth, we will likely reduce our reliance on stealth. part of fun o' the game for us is leveling and getting new skills and abilities. force us to chose between a playstyle we prefer and voluntary gimpage is wholly unnecessary IF we use quest xp. problem solved. think us a philistine for wanting good xp payoff and fun playstyle? *shrug* is not a problem with quest xp. HA! Good Fun!

is admittedly a far more compelling debate subject than quest xp v. ad hoc. heck, it may even be more relevant. ... sadly, 'cause this may diminish us in the eyes o' some, we is more o' a picasso aficionado. HA! Good Fun!

indeed. unfortunately, obisidan is making a game for everybody who will play PoE. we can luck into a mess and find that the experience were exhilarating. we got a story about halloween in isla vista back in 1992... but that is another story for another time... and a whole different kinda unexpected mess. a PoE player with messed up character development choices is a whole different issue. poor schmuck thought that playing stealthy would be fun too... seeing as how obsidian has said many times that there won't be bad builds 'n all. and heck, maybe it were fun, right up until he realized he were getting 1/2 the xp o' the slaughterhouse player. that is the kinda mess quest xp avoids. we like Jackson Pollock, but as a game designer, am thinking that mess is not a viable mechanical or aesthetic choice. HA! Good Fun!

I think the previous poster's example is bad, but he makes a valid point. If anything, an RPG should be rewarding the player for RP, not asking them to RP to make up for its own design failures. Agreed, but removing combat xp entirely is not the only solution to this supposed problem. with quest xp, you get combat xp. you also get stealth xp. you get diplomacy xp. you get we-never-expected-you-to-complete-that-quest-that-way xp. quest xp does not discriminate or punish. however you choose to accomplish a task or quest, you receive xp. thus, if you killed every bug, mammal and mystical beast on the map and vanquished the ultimate boss with a hammer blow to the head, you is receiving combat xp. everybody wins. nobody loses. socialists everywhere should be rejoicing. and yes, we know that ain't what you meant by combat xp, but functionally, quest xp simply removes the need or point o' distinguishing. HA! Good Fun! Thank you gromnir, I'm aware of your position. I also understand how quest only XP works. Not sure how socialism fits into all this? Not a fan of it myself, I guess you are? Looks like there is something else we don't agree on! actually, no. am not a socialist. bad assumption there. regardless, quest xp does solve problems o' balancing combat xp and other varieties o' xp... which makes us all the more perplexed when people come up with gut-level rejections o' a simple and elegant mechanic that makes style o' play a non factor in balancing xp rewards. HA! Good Fun!

I think the previous poster's example is bad, but he makes a valid point. If anything, an RPG should be rewarding the player for RP, not asking them to RP to make up for its own design failures. Agreed, but removing combat xp entirely is not the only solution to this supposed problem. with quest xp, you get combat xp. you also get stealth xp. you get diplomacy xp. you get we-never-expected-you-to-complete-that-quest-that-way xp. quest xp does not discriminate or punish. however you choose to accomplish a task or quest, you receive xp. thus, if you killed every bug, mammal and mystical beast on the map and vanquished the ultimate boss with a hammer blow to the head, you is receiving combat xp. everybody wins. nobody loses. socialists everywhere should be rejoicing. and yes, we know that ain't what you meant by combat xp, but functionally, quest xp simply removes the need or point o' distinguishing. HA! Good Fun!

am gonna concede that quoting wikipedia is a pet peeve of ours. if henry kissinger or the Pope quoted wikipedia definitions or "evidence" to us we would heap nothing but scorn and derision 'pon them. if mother teresa were still alive, we might give her a free pass, but our understanding were that she had no personal property save a bucket and one change o' clothes, so we thinks that the internet might be a bit outside her comfort zone. furthermore, the whole living saint angle would make us back away from our typical, "quoting wikipedia deserves a steel-toed boot kick to the head" response. hmmm... we might expand the free-pass list beyond the Pope and henry kissinger, if given enough time. mike ditka? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYJrJO25BD4 HA! Good Fun!

Good to know there are still some people that have something to bring to the table, good to know that you have so much repect to us that you didn't even bother to say something that whoud show us, what to you think about "Non-linearity" how it looks in you opinion etc ... we have... literal dozens of times. many people on these boards would consider our posting on the matter to be the equivalent of spam. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

IWD1 Rangers using bows were more broken than anything in BG1 IMO disagree. bg1 excessive bow powha was a topic discussed on the iwd boards as a matter o' fact. a bg1 fighter with grandmastery in bows would make any iwd ranger build look like a child wielding one of those plastic toy bows with the suction-cup arrows. the howls o' anguish that inexplicably rose up from the bg bow fans were defeaning when they understood that bis were nerfing bows. HA! Good Fun!

non-linear story in a crpg is a myth. multiple paths is not actual non-linear, but am s'posing that is semantics. HA! Good Fun!

we have faith because faith is, in point o' fact, unnecessary. you can't be this slow on accident. there is no calculus needed to balance, no algorithm or ad hoc methods spawned from an attempt to make sure stealth or diplomats get enough xp. no faith is required, because no balancing occurs. Gromnir has faith that the obsidian developers will never drown in a pool o' balancing because they will necessarily never attempt to swim in that pool. congrats. as for strawman, we never said that the system that obsidian will implement will create fun. that is your strawman. xp is an abstraction. exp is a measure that allows us to eventual level. you really need a copy o' Copi. we ignored the noise. "Do you understand that Gromnir? I'm not arguing with you. All the things I've wanted to say have been said. At this point I'm just enjoying watching you flail around in your sad attempts to defend a system that you seem to be irrationally attached to." and Gromnir is enjoying you continuing to make yourself look increasing foolish. if we is both having fun, so much the better, but your fundamental inability to play the game is resulting in diminished returns. if we could train you to tip your little fez at the end o' your jig, we could perhaps make this organ-grinder performance earn us some money, but we can't even teach strawman to you, so that seems unlikely. HA! Good Fun!

"Your responses seem to suggest you have a lot of faith in the developers to implement their chosen systems in a way that will lead to you having a fun time with this game. Some of us don't share that optimism, or are at least much more wary of this than you are." you should never be able to claim strawman. ever. you use like an automatic weapon, but then claim others is using, and is typical wrong doing so. we have faith that quest xp is balanced and simple. the reason we have faith that the developers will implement balanced and simple is because it requires 0 Faith. it is the balancing system o' xp that requires no faith because it is requiring Zero balancing. PoE will give you enough xp to reach level 10 or 11... am not recalling which. developers is spreading out so that you get that xp in relative even increments basd on QA gameplay. so, yeah, if you is honestly disturbed that you is not getting xp in dribble amounts o' 10s, 50s and 100s xp denominations that is fundamentally more difficult to balance than quest xp regardless o' fact that you will get approximate same amount o' xp with quest xp during similar amounts o' gameplay time, then we has little sympathy for you, and we believe you is deluding self regarding what you think is fun. you will have similar opportunities to level and improve your character regardless o' quest xp implementation and you will be getting same xp regardless o' how others play the game, but simple failure to see ticks o' 10xp, 50xp, and 100xp will reduce fun? fine. is good to know. Gromnir Does have faith that even the more incompetent developers could use the considerable resources that would go into the ultimately pointless balancing attempts other than quest/task, and use those resources to improve the game in a multitude o' un knowable and non-specific ways. you don't believe balancing is actual necessary? is a pointless observation. is a major goal mentioned many times as part o' oriiginal kickstarter and since that time, so effort will be expended to balance. choice therefore becomes infinitely simple: do you want the developers to spend a tiny fraction o' resources on balancing xp rewwards that will result in perfect balance, or some other far more respource intensive system that will by necessity end up less balanced. you simply cannot make a more balanced system than quest/task, because it complete ignores the balancing calculus. that being said, yes, if the ticks o' 10s, 50s and 100s o' xp is essential to your fundamental enjoyment o' the game, as peculiar as that is striking us, then we understand your need to argue... though we again, find your timing... amusing. HA! Good Fun!

Now that you mention it , I do feel that seeing the XP values pop up after kills in the Infinity Engine games, served as performance feedback in a way. Not just in a "And another one bites the dust, good job, here have a gold star!" kind of way, but slightly more meaningfully - as in: "Oh wow, that monster gave 10,000 XP? Now I don't feel bad about having spent so many limited resources (spells, scrolls, item charges, potions, health) in this fight -- it was supposed to be that hard. Gotta remember the tactic I used!"or conversely: "Oh, only 200 XP for each of these monsters? Then I guess there must be an easier way to kill them than how I just did it. Next time I meet monsters of this type, I gotta remember to try out different weapon combinations or spell tactics..."So getting the kill XP might not be fun in and of itself, but it is also not completely useless. Although in PoE, the bestiary probably already covers that... (PS: Did I mention I love the bestiary? ) keep in mind that tougher critters will likely drop better loot and may even be part o' a quest resolution. get quest xp for dispatching the ogre serves purpose you were asking for yes? after all, it marked resolution o' a quest, so you know very well that the ogre is significant. am betting most special critters will be tied direct or indirect to quests. killing significant npcs will also be likely to have'em drop loot. drop dirty rags = pathetic foe. drop Excalibur = significant. *shrug* am doubtful an xp award is or should be the defining measure o' success and significance. HA! Good Fun!

--the only xp question we have is: why are tasks and quests disappearing from our log? the game is designed to get you to level 10ish (maybe it were 11... don't recall) or so. if the QA guys are actual reaching level 10 and they is gaining levels at predictable and relative stable increments, then we got no idea what possible xp queries we could possibly think o' that would be at all meaningful. -- how does interrupting work, and how is Gromnir 'posed to recognize if we is successful interrupting? there are TWO abilities that are intimately tied to interrupts: resolve and perception. nevertheless, we has no idea when we is interrupting and we only have a slight better chance o' recognizing when we has been interrupted. -- are priests intended to be the only healing class? this game has a plethora o' classes and many unique new casters. unfortunately, the priest appears to be the only healer. unfortunately, this would seem to require that if we have a priest in a party, he/she needs almost by necessity, be a healbot. -- is there an obvious way to recognize which foes are affected by debuffs? combats can turn into a Charlie Fox very quickly, and one wood beetle looks very much like every other wood beetle. if Gromnir uses marked prey on a wood beetle,is there some kinda obvious visual indicator for letting us know which wood beetle is suffering from marked prey, or any of the other multitude o' possible debuffs? --am getting that talents is few in number at this point, but is there a reason the talents we do have is so enigmatic. congratulations, our ranger is now proficient with peasant weapons. okie dokie. what does that actual means? --why is the character record sheet not more dynamic? we change weapon load outs and nothing on character sheet changes. is it better for Gromnir to dual wield stilettos or use that fine arquebus? no matter which weapon load out we activate, our character record sheet revels no changes to inform us o' differences in accuracy or any other possible changes. --are bears s'posed to be so bad arse? State o' Maine is doing ridiculous damage compared to our boar, wolf or stag... also, there doesn't seem to be a way to activate animal special abilities for those that have them, is this intentional? --the combat log, even when maximized is very brief. scroll up to max is maybe revealing two actions per party member. this is woefully insufficient. is it possible to save more detailed text logs into a PoE file we might review after combats? -- at what point are we going to see more talents? even sucky talents is worth seeing 'cause then we could say, "those talents suck. do it different." the current ability points is admittedly diluting the relative diversity o' class builds. so, when can we start seeing more talents, talents which we hope will expand diversity. we got many other queries, but no sense getting greedy, yes? will wait to add more later. HA! Good Fun! ps one more query before we forget... pixel hunting for rare plants? really?

(quote system died on us again) "Gromnir, why does it have to be "as simple and straightforward to implement"? "Surely, when designing a game, the developers should start by asking "What will be most fun and rewarding for players?", and not "What will be the least amount of work for us?"" "Note that I'm among those who are fine with the PoE's XP system (although I also enjoyed how XP was handled the Infinity Engine, with the exception of XP scaling in IWD2), so I'm not trying to be combative, it's an honest question." answer: scroll up and read josh quote as provided by indira. balancing a system of xp awards is notoriously difficult on developers and QA. quest xp balances by not balancing. quest and task xp takes the whole complex mess of coming up with a calculus that appropriately awards for various tasks that will have admittedly startling different frequencies of usage and functionally solves the extremely difficult problem of balancing proper xp awards by taking the balancing completely out of the process. developers make certain that there are opportunities to be stealthy in the game, they make lockpicking useful and rewarding. they provide options to utilize diplomacy and/or guile. the developers obviously don't need to provide an appropriate number of combat encounters as there will be more than enough of those, but they must still need makes combats engaging and varied. however, quest/task based xp does not require the developers to find any proper balance or formula for awarding xp in an ad hoc manner. actions do not have an xp value even if developer must still be conscious of whether or not particular skills are reasonably useful and fun. getting xp is not, in and of itself fun. leveling might be, but not getting xp.... save for in the same way timmy gets his gold star for memorizing multiplication tables up to the 3s place. why am we suggesting that alternative xp system must be as simple and straightforward as quest xp? because simplicity, elegance and unbreakability is among the main positive attributes of quest xp from the prospective of the developer. the resources and effort saved by functionally solving the problem of balance by ignoring it is more than inconsequential and those resources can be utilized to improve the game in many other unforeseen ways. we cannot say specific what the resources is used for in the alternative, and "a lot" strikes us as woeful vague and unenlightened, but the resource savings is some where between yowzah and Boing! so, yes, given that a prime attribute o' quest xp is resource savings, one would expect that the replacement system, particularly in the late stages o' a game beta, would need be equal simple and resource cost-effective to be representing an attractive alternative to the developers. am not being unfair by adding simplicity and straightforward to our challenge... a challenge which still has no takers btw. HA! Good Fun!

This is a fair objection you raise, but even if the story is great. This is a game, and it's clearly built heavily around combat and the level progression for your roleplaying character revolves almost solely around combat rewards. am confused. what game is you talking about? PoE is specifically not built around level progression as a reward for combats. PoE rewards players for quests and tasks completions and there appears to be the possibility for non-combat resolutions for many/most such quests and tasks. is possible you is actual talking about fallout:tactics however. even so, we wouldn't feel particular bad if xp were granted at the completion o' major objectives on each fo:t maps as 'posed to granting rewards for kills. am recalling the first time we completed the st. louis map, we utilized a scorched earth approach, particular after securing the sniper rifle. the actual mission goal were to save some injured soldiers, but instead we killed everything on the map because the xp were fantastic and 'cause there were so much .50 ammo available if you chose to go ahead and wipe out every mutant. am suspecting that the inflated xp award for the genocide at st. louis is the kinda thing quest/task xp awards seek to minimize. st. louis were also a bonanza for xp if one had the capacity to disarm mines.... which we also exploited shamelessly. every accidentally exploding mine were not only representing lost salvage but wasted xp. good example though. thanks for reminding us. HA! Good Fun!

and so it begins. the sad attempts to distinguish, minimize and otherwise ignore. but again, is not a surprise. we knew from start that quest and task xp would be the mechanic employed to dispense xp awards in PoE. the sudden and irrational shock that quest and task xp is the method actual being employed (admittedly with severe bugs hindering its efficacy) is amusing but hardly unexpected. HA! Good Fun!