Objulen

Me >> >

Actually, HK-47 never sides with G0-T0, in one possible scenario in the voice acting, it could've been pretend, but I'm pretty sure that's a flashback, since Goto speaks about him planning on using HK-47 to build future generations, according to the voice-acted parts. The HK-50s do in one or two scenes, but then reveal that they can't harm HK-47 in any ways, and thus side with their original. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He does say that he's hunting the remote: I don't know if those three lines are faked, or alternate, or what. They look more alternate-based-on LS/DS or maybe Influence or maybe something else entirely, because otherwise it's hard to fit all or most of the dialogue together - there's no line joining them to the point where the HKs all reveal that they're not working for G0T0. I don't see where they'd fit in as a flashback. Statement: Come out, little one. I promise I will end you quickly, without a single lingering charge remaining in your behavior core. {Evil, hunting}Statement: Hiding from me is useless. I will find you eventually - you only delay the inevitable. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know about HK teaming up with G0-T0, but I do know about HK annihilating him with a bunch of HK-50's -- perhaps HK stabs G0-T0 in the back (so to speak)? Pretending to hunt the "little one", and instead setting up G0-T0, for example.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords was overall a good game. I enjoyed it. However, that being said, the removal of all this cut content really disappoints me. Alot of the plot points brought up in the game were glossed over at best, and the ending was rather hollow, with a quick finish that screams "rushed". This sort of content would have been the difference between a good game and a great game, IMO, and I have to agree with the Resident Cynic article.

I was under the impression that there was also a scene where Disciple attacks Atton and Visas attacks Handmaiden depending on which one had more influence. Am I mistaken?

I confirmed my supicions. Played through with a DS female, and Disciple appeared at a certain part near the end instead of Visas. So much for strategy guides.

Yeah, I know all of that.... butttttt you've missed my point. It was a war of the Republic vs the Sith/Mandalorian War vets. so my point is that the way "it's explained in the game" is wrong. It wasn't a war of Jedi, it was a war where veterans of the MWs turned on the REPUBLIC. They came back and started conquering the Republic, the Republic retaliated and the Jedi helped out. Though I completely understand how "Outsiders" would see Jedi and dark-Jedi as the same thing, I don't think it *would* seem to outsiders that it was a squabble between Jedi. The "good" Jedi were helping the Republic, the "bad Jedi" were leading the Sith (and since the outsiders are "ignorant" as we've established, they WOULD view the fleets and soldiers as the Sith) in attacks against the Republic. Both sets of Jedi were on opposing sides and had opposing goals, true- but to an "outsider" the main war would appear to be between the Sith (as in, the dark jedi, the soldiers, the ships and everything) and the Republic. The "Civil War"- fine, could understand that. Oh wait, that got taken by Episodes IV-VI. Doh. Anyway, I've more or less coped with that- I can extend my disbelief far enough to see how it could be called "the Jedi Civil War" by the masses. But it sure as hell doesn't fit in with what I saw in KotOR 1 in regards to the Republic's attitude towards it. But that is *not* my main gripe. Jedi Masters are *not* outsiders, yet even they call it the Jedi Civil War. Which is pretty stupid. But I guess they just figured they had to call it that since it was the name that the rest of the galaxy had stamped on it. Urg. Anyway, it is the Jedi Civil War, I can't not accept that- since it's its name. I just think it was a lame choice. I mean, take away the context we have of KotOR 1. Pretend we just had KotOR 2 and we heard "Jedi Civil War". What does that make you think of? Certainly not the type of war we saw in KotOR 1. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It makes sense to me. Jedi always stand out, and enough people knew about Reven's targets and could connect the dots well enough to start rumors. That's how many wars get their unofficial names in more chaotic eras, which the Republic is at this time. The Jedi Masters calling the conflict the Jedi Civil War is an oversight, I agree, but that hardly derails the entire game. As for the presentation in KotOR II, that was the point. Instead of having the overt, epic space-opera of wide proportions, TSL was meant to turn everything on its head, to be subtle instead of overt, to have many shades of grey instead of being black and white. Personally, I prefer it -- there are only so many times you can have a massive, epic war without it getting repetative, and there is already alot of copy-and-paste materials in Star Wars. Honestly, no one has really updated ship designs in over a few millenia?

And the game does indeed have a darker storyline. Nowhere however does it say we want gratuatus scenes of violence and an M rating. So perphaps Obsidian misinterpreted their wishes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is what the "fade to balck" transition is used for.

You mean like the Empire Strikes Back? Or Revenge of the Sith, when it comes out? Star Wars is generally a light hearted fantasy, but let's face it -- you have to have conflict to have a good story, and having that conflict in a sci-fi space opera with epic trends like Star Wars requires darkness at some time or another. Further, Star Wars has plenty of adult situations that are alluded to, it just doesn't go into detail. What do you think happened to Leia when Vader was interrigating her with a torture droid? Cake and ice cream? The darkness in Star Wars is there for anyone who bothers to look for it; the fact that it gets glossed over with fade-to-black transitions doesn't mean its not there, or that a more visceral Star Wars story is out of place from time to time.

Goto this thread: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764

And Roma

This one is quite correct. While it is not quite correct to say that it is gender descrimination, because male Echani would fight in skimpy outfits as well, it does say something about modern culture that there are only women who do so. I view your case here as being much weaker. Visas witnessed her entire race's annihilation, and then was essentially enslaved by the one who slew them and forced to serve him, not to mention the abuse she probably suffered. If that doesn't leave emotional scars, I don't know what would. As for sexually surrending, what are you refering to? No one even kisses in this game, and the male "macho, hide my feelings" stereotype is quite evident with Atton as well in his dialog with Disciple. Darth Nihilus was male. He is now something more akin to an undead force of monstrous power. If you ever played Vampire: the Masquerade, it would be more akin to a Methusela or Antideluvian than a standard human being. Demi-god would also be an applicable term, and not in a Greek sense. And yet Sion defers to her at the end and trys to win her approval. And this swings both ways. Sion is portrayed as a muscle-bound thug who can only inflict physical pain and suffering. If there is gender stereotyping here, then it applies to both male and female stereotypes. The best case I see for this is Handmadien. The rest of your arguments, are, IMO, weak, either being percieved in the worst possible light, or being equally balanced by standard male stereotyping. And while I don't agree with stereotyping, as it makes cookie cutter characters, I don't think that it is quite as great as you believe. It is also inevitable that cultural biases will worm their way into almost anything, and trying to filter them all out leaves a feeling that is just as contrived as trying to specifically include them.

Ulicus, the way it's explained in the game, Reven and Malak had alot to do with why the Jedi Civil War is known as such. Reven and Malak were both seen as champions of the Republic, at least until they came back to conqure it. There former heroes were also targeting Jedi specifically, and thus it seemed to outsiders that it was a squable between Jedi. And why shouldn't it? To an outsider, the dispute between Catholics and Protestants over history would seem like two different philosophies or branches of the same religion fighting over minor differences, while the two belief systems themselves hold that there are great differences that merit such conflicts. Here's where the Jedi's own secretive nature damns them -- unlike the divergences between Catholics and Protestants, which can be easily researched in the modern era, the Jedi keep much of their knowledge secret, so those who might be tempted by the dark side can not begin that path. In doing so, the rest of galaxy is stripped of the knowledge they could have used to try and understand the differences between the Sith and the Jedi.

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinks thinks this interview is a load of PR BS. I've learned to take information from gaming magizines with a grain of salt, because they often don't include the existing flaws, especially in previews and interviews. Some have better balanced, such as the Resident Cynic review, but you honestly have to wonder how the "truth/getting articles for ads to make money" ratio is working. The planet was cut to make E3. Translation: it was rushed out. I'm sorry, but this sounds like a rationalization to me, pure and simple. "We can't come up with a good excuse for why we cut all this wonderful ending content, so we are going to make a BS answer because we can't make LA look bad" or "we screwed up and don't want to admit it." You can have a sense that the saga would continue with definitive ending -- just look at Baldur's Gate II, with the shadowy meeting after the end. The plot was resolved with Irenicus, and here we have the foreshadowing of a sequal (which turned out the be an expansion, but same difference). The removed conversation between Visas and Mandelore alone hints at a conitunation. Why not just include that? There's a difference between setting up for a possible sequel and leaving a messy ending. Cutting this content was a mistake, pure and simple. Big rationalization, right here, and one that I doubt has any foundation in reality. I am far more inclined to believe that most of the players who find this ending satisfying are the players who have no idea just how much content was cut. Honestly, who, having read the information in the thread about the cut content, would prefer it stayed out? And how many more disagree?

The whole 'Jedi are good' stuff only really showed up in Star Wars III - Revenge of the Jedi (Or what some call Star Wars 6: Return of the Jedi) when Lucas decided that all good stems from not facing your fears, not feeling emotion, but being at peace with oneself. Personally, the Semi-Sith in KOTOR2 (the Betrayer ) is more of a Jedi than Luke will ever be, simply because she's not going to be blinded by the whole Jedi Code stuffs. Once you detatch yourself from emotion, are you really human? Jedi don't always do good things. Sith can do bad things for a good cause. All in all, we're just people when it comes down to it. And everything we do will have both good and bad repercussions. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It was also in the first movie, when the empire is evil, the "Sith" (who aren't Sith yet, just fallen Jedi) are evil, and the Jedi are described in no uncertain terms by Obiwan Kenobi as good. After all, it's hard to be evil when you're portrayed as the defenders of peace and justice in the galaxy. The origional Star Wars is a VERY dualistic ethical system, with clear cut good and evil; like most dualistic systems with clear cut good and evil, then don't take into account anything resembling moral choice or question. It appears greatly in the table top RPG system -- using the Dark Side for any reason is evil, and grants you a Dark Side point, even if used for good. Jolee Bindo in the first KotOR was a sorry excuse at a "neutral" Jedi. "I'm not a Jedi, even though I'm just like Yoda! I just left because I fell in love, and it ended badly!" As for the argument with the Betrayer, I agree fully. It's an ammusing hypocracy that Jedi aren't supposed to feel, unless it's a noble emotion, like compasion, and especially love, while the Sith are potrayed and stated as giving into the passions and animal emotions, again, until you get to noble emotions, like love, which no Sith ever appears capable of. Atton covered it nicely. It is another symptom of a dualistic system. When one side is absolute good and the other is absolute evil, and you throw in philosophies that restrict an entire spectrum of experiance, both good and evil, you run into continuity errors that make for great philosophical debate, but those same continutiy errors leave obvious flaws that turn people away and limit how much you can do without creating yet more plot holes. LotR used such a dualistic system, with the West/Valar being good, and the East/Melkor/Sauron being evil, but if you read the Silmarillion, which outlines the general history of Middle Earth up until the end of the Third Age and the fall of Sauron, it is quite apparant the Sauron is a mini-me version of Melkor, he's former superior; the story repeates itself. Now, the individual tales are ones of more variety, but even these tend to be similar in premise -- the noble heroes either defeats or are defeated by evil, as things gradual get worse and worse until a stunning reversal turns the tide and utterly destroys the evil. And after a while, it gets repetative and old; I loved LotRs, but there's only so many times good and evil can clash without some sort of moral and ethical analysis and questioning in the story, instead of the assumed "we're good, they're evil", and it shows.

Yes.

It seems to me that Visas isn't so much as romancable for both male and female characters as much as a part was added before one of the ending areas to try and make Visas more of a person. While female/female "action" is more accepted in certain, more pornographic avenues in current US culture, I doubt LA would really explore such issues in a Star Wars game (example: in BG II you can sleep with your paramour, in KotOR 1 you barely even kissed), and as for strategy guides, they are frequently have errors, particularly on nuiances such as this, where it is possible to have multiple interpretations. FYI, The strange thing you do is "look" at each other with Force Sight. The blue, red, and potentially grey is your aura. Use first-person view with Visas and you'll see it's the same thing.

LA didn't make KotOR or KotOR 2. They liscenced them out to other developers. I'm talking back in the days when LA actually MADE their own games.

Actually, I think any mod made to get a better ending will increase the potential for LucasArts to make money. It may entice some Xbox Kotor 2 owners to pick up the PC version. It may entice a few who haven't bought the game on account of the threads detailing the rather poor endgame, to purchase the game (though that would indeed be a tragic and at the same time happy situation, buying a game because the mod community finished it properly). Ultimately, we'll see what happens in the coming weeks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good points.

Note: Manalore's indentity is hinted at to the point of revealing it when Kreia has a talk with him (when she mentions clan Ordo), and given away outright when you get the final conversation with Kreia at the very end of the game when you ask about your companions.

1) LA probably wouldn't care as long as they aren't losing money off the mod and they weren't planning something like it. I don't see either as being particularly likley 2) You don't have to worry much at all about getting your pants sued off out of no where. LA isn't Adobe as far as I know (the latter being notorious for their rabid protection of any and all copyrighted materials to an extent that makes even RIA and the MPAA looke docile in comparison), so they aren't going to persue a law suit if you take down the files. This means you'll recieve a letter of intent, and unless you plan on pressing the issue, will take down the mod, end of story.

It wasn't changed at all. KotOR 1 was seen through the eyes of the Jedi, mostly, like every Star Wars movie to date for the most part (even A New Hope, etc. was built around Luke becoming a Jedi, and the Rebellion was founded around Jedi principles. This is explored more deeplyin KotOR 2). As was said above, the general populace didn't see a real difference between the Sith and the Jedi -- they were two branches of the same religion warring over doctrine while everyone else burned. The events were the same, but they are presented from a different perspective, which is one of the best appeals of KotOR 2 -- the destinction between Jedi and Sith is not so great; the Jedi are not so good, and the Sith not so evil. At least until the end, when the game in general falls apart.

If the patch is coming soon, then realistically it's not going to include a fixed ending, unless the ending materials were only a few weeks away from completion. If this is the case, then I'm going to sit at my computer with my jaw hanging open, shocked at the utter greed that could motivate LA into knocking out such content to rush the game a few weeks, and then happily launch in and start playing. However, as will probably occur, the ending material won't be in this next patch, but it will hopefully be included in a future patch/fix. Even that does not seem particularly likely, but I can hope.

Planescape: Torment is a wonderful game I would recomend to anyone. It doesn't have a morbid streak, so you are forewarned if you find such things repugnant. As for the ending, the ending of a good game always leaves a bit of an empty feeling. "Leave them wanting more", as the cliche goes. However, there is a difference between and ending that "leaves them wanting more" and an ending that "leaves them" going "WTF happened?"

I didn't have a problem with him; I just spammed Kill and Wave.

It's a pity what happened to LA, because they used to make good games like TIE Fighter, and a few were exceptional games that deserved to be elevated to classics, like the Dig. Consider the garbage they have spewed out in the past few years, and instances like this where it is very possible that their meddling caused an otherwise great game to be reduced in stature, it is a pity how far they fell.