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For Russia it was a safe bet from the start. Any effective measure I can think off by the EU/US will cause Russia to clamp on EU gas supply or escalate by creating a larger breakaway state in East Ukraine, and no one is going to start a war over Ukraine... Which is why I avoided posting this, so we don't get side tracked, into more westren crap, but now that it is obvious here: With that said , I don't think that Obama statement that there will be consequences to Russia action is funny and some fancy Nato crap or added isolation to that of Syria.

Maybe someone should give a summary of the crisis(political?) for this to get rolling, all I know is the economic situation and the usual accusations.

Remind me where and what convoluted mind decided that full date should be written: as month, day, year instead of day>month>year ?!

Wikipedia: Zionist Occupied Government .. an antisemitic conspiracy .. used by antisemitic groups such as white supremacists in the United States and Europe, ultra-nationalists such as Pamyat in Russia, and various far-right groups, including some in Poland. basically oby crowd if he isn't a payed troll.

in response: also hidden in plain sight I love your dedication, but you should really see Tagaziel previous post

It is the standard rice and flowers scheme.. to try to sway attention from Russian bullying Ukraine who is afraid to respond to Russian aggression and violation of its sovereignty, to avoid Georgia fate..

EU freezes assets of ousted Ukrainian leader Yanukovich and 17 others. According to Ukraine's new prime minister, Yanukovich embezzled as much as $37 billion during three years in office. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/ukraine-eu-freezes-assets-yanukovych It reminds me an old argument about why Putin stays in power (he has been in power for the past 15 years, and planing for more) because if the opposition ever gets there, Putin, his government and various judicial members will be catapulted into jail for everything they have done in Russia..

This is real?! Also can we agree that sweet spot news is usually more then an article title and much less then the whole article copy&pasta

I can sum up oby and alike post from the Russian sector. The are all focused on supporting Putin narrative, that Ukraine government is illegitimate, controlled by fascist who threat ethnic Russians, because this the only way they can maintain the Romanticized notion that Russian aggression and violation of Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty, orchestrated to destabilize Ukraine that was unlikely to get behind their interests and secury their military objectives in it; as defense of Russians or Russian interests. Usually i'd say that you can't blame him, this Romanticized notions is pushed hard by Russian media, which struggle with pluralism in a good day(due to its being nationalized and highly censored) but during times of crisis it goes into overdrive(like most) a combination that produce solid bricks of propaganda. (The reporter from English RT[uSA based?] that quite over its reportage, isn't really representative.) Though in oby case i have to make an exception. Indeed he may be a paid shill.

How so? Wasn't he deposed by the same democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament that voted him in? which also approved the new interim government?

US state department memo, so take it with a grain of salt, still it provide a good summary of the major point raised by the two side. I wouldn't say that Russia would necessarily pick those 10 points for its case, but its good enough and provide decent summary (I learned new details on two points) As Russia spins a false narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine, the world has not seen such startling Russian fiction since Dostoyevsky wrote, “The formula ‘two plus two equals five’ is not without its attractions.” Below are 10 of President Vladimir Putin’s recent claims justifying Russian aggression in the Ukraine, followed by the facts that his assertions ignore or distort: 1. Mr. Putin says: Russian forces in Crimea are only acting to protect Russian military assets. It is “citizens’ defense groups,” not Russian forces, who have seized infrastructure and military facilities in Crimea. The Facts: Strong evidence suggests that members of Russian security services are at the heart of the highly organized anti-Ukraine forces in Crimea. While these units wear uniforms without insignia, they drive vehicles with Russian military license plates and freely identify themselves as Russian security forces when asked by the international media and the Ukrainian military. Moreover, these individuals are armed with weapons not generally available to civilians. 2. Mr. Putin says Russia’s actions fall within the scope of the 1997 Friendship Treaty between Ukraine and the Russian Federation. The Facts: The 1997 agreement requires Russia to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Russia’s military actions in Ukraine, which have given them operational control of Crimea, are in clear violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty. 3. Mr. Putin says The opposition failed to implement the February 21 agreement with former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. The Facts: The February 21 agreement laid out a plan in which the Rada, or Parliament, would pass a bill to return Ukraine to its 2004 Constitution, thus returning the country to a constitutional system centered around its parliament. Under the terms of the agreement, Yanukovych was to sign the enacting legislation within 24 hours and bring the crisis to a peaceful conclusion. Yanukovych refused to keep his end of the bargain. Instead, he packed up his home and fled, leaving behind evidence of wide-scale corruption. 4. Mr. Putin says Ukraine’s government is illegitimate. Yanukovych is still the legitimate leader of Ukraine. The Facts: On March 4, President Putin himself acknowledged the reality that Yanukovych “has no political future.” After Yanukovych fled Ukraine, even his own Party of Regions turned against him, voting to confirm his withdrawal from office and to support the new government. Ukraine’s new government was approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament, with 371 votes – more than an 82% majority. The interim government of Ukraine is a government of the people, which will shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that will allow all Ukrainians to have a voice in the future of their country. 5. Mr. Putin says There is a humanitarian crisis and hundreds of thousands are fleeing Ukraine to Russia and seeking asylum. The Facts: To date, there is absolutely no evidence of a humanitarian crisis. Nor is there evidence of a flood of asylum-seekers fleeing Ukraine for Russia. International organizations on the ground have investigated by talking with Ukrainian border guards, who also refuted these claims. Independent journalists observing the border have also reported no such flood of refugees. 6. Mr. Putin says Ethnic Russians are under threat. The Facts: Outside of Russian press and Russian state television, there are no credible reports of any ethnic Russians being under threat. The new Ukrainian government placed a priority on peace and reconciliation from the outset. President Oleksandr Turchynov refused to sign legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers have filed petitions attesting that their communities have not experienced threats. Furthermore, since the new government was established, calm has returned to Kyiv. There has been no surge in crime, no looting, and no retribution against political opponents. 7. Mr. Putin says Russian bases are under threat. The Facts: Russian military facilities were and remain secure, and the new Ukrainian government has pledged to abide by all existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. It is Ukrainian bases in Crimea that are under threat from Russian military action. 8. Mr. Putin says There have been mass attacks on churches and synagogues in southern and eastern Ukraine. The Facts: Religious leaders in the country and international religious freedom advocates active in Ukraine have said there have been no incidents of attacks on churches. All of Ukraine’s church leaders, including representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, have expressed support for the new political leadership, calling for national unity and a period of healing. Jewish groups in southern and eastern Ukraine report that they have not seen an increase in anti-Semitic incidents. 9. Mr. Putin says Kyiv is trying to destabilize Crimea. The Facts: Ukraine’s interim government has acted with restraint and sought dialogue. Russian troops, on the other hand, have moved beyond their bases to seize political objectives and infrastructure in Crimea. The government in Kyiv immediately sent the former Chief of Defense to defuse the situation. Petro Poroshenko, the latest government emissary to pursue dialogue in Crimea, was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada. 10. Mr. Putin says The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists. The Facts: The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite.

Of course removing the official status of the language is a big deal. It's a big deal to the people effected, it's also a big deal to the new government. ed) Yes Zaptor for the love of good.. Also let go of the straws, the question wasn't if it is big deal to.., but it is a big deal on the current agenda.. or just used to perpetuation an image of anti Russia bias (fascist and what not) to which you adhere to. Considering that they just had amendments to constitution(revoking the extended powers to given to the president in 2004), in the middle of immense internal political and economical challenges, with Russian invasion on their hands and one stop from defaulting. Do tell what is this major issue that you and oby keep bringing up above allllll else. This law which could be easily reintroduced if there would be majority for it, was voted down not by the "new government" per se, but by majority withing Ukraine council (which iirc haven't been changed and still represent Ukraine electorates) Also this year+ old law was part of long controversy and only recently pushed in by the deposed president regardless recommendations, It is laso seen as contributing factor to underlying ethnic tensions and animosities. So do tell, how is this minor blip on the current immediate issues at hand, which was voted down democratically, due to its association with deposed president corruption and as the cause of current issues which ~divide by language lines abd which could be easily reinstead with a mjorty once thing call down, is your holly grail of fascism? Because the only major connection to Nazi germany I see is this:

@alanschu, please be more specific. You disagree that this law is a minor issue on the current Ukrainian agenda? that it has been blown up out of proportion by interested parties that wish to marginalize complex issues by perpetuation an image they can easily discredit?(e.g. see posts by oby) That Russia had been steering the pot from before Euromaidne protests and intervened within another sovereign nation? That Russia main interest is Russia and weak submissive puppet Ukraine? That Russia had destabilizing effect on Independent Ukraine for a long time, and its current action has adverse to Ukrainian solving their internal issues? or even though you agree that this a complex situation and spent several paragraph to formulate single issue, that you don't get the hang of loaded terms in the context of this crisis? Also i'd still love to know what in your opinion is the difference between fascist and nationalist here and where Ukrainian Nationalist who fight for his nations Independence, Crimean Nationalist(Separatist) or the ones Pro-Russian ones in east Ukraine come into play?

Meanwhile in the US: * Disclaimer, this user doesn't actually support Obama, US\EU direct action or think that much can be done directly against Russia bullying in Ukraine.

His legitimacy would be the same as that of Barack Obama in the hypothetical scenario in which he would have been impeached, after running away and being unreachable during time of national crisis, in which a battle was raging in NY, with dozens of Occupy Wall Street protesters dead after he gave the order to use live ammo and before that used squads of hired goons to break them .. then after he got impeached and criminal charges were field pop up again play surprised. Pretty much first two, only the rallying is done by Russia guiding hand and instead of a Confederate Flag we got a Nazi one, used to paint nationalist elements of one side fence with familiar colors that carry a lot of baggage for the other. As for the later. I seen an early elections called after president run away during national crisis and was impeached. From here to calling it a coup(usually used associated with military coup) or Putsch which is the German word for it seem to serve one and the same goal of Russian propaganda Only Russian never was an official language of Ukraine, what you refer to is a decision to revert a recent regional year old law by the deposed president, that allowed second language status to minorities that constitute more 10% of regions population. Which IMO isn't a big issue, since it could be easily reinstated after the election if there is a majority for it, but I'd love to see you make a leap from and issue that aggravated underlying ethnic tensions and animosities to "fascism" and if you do try, please also explain the difference between Nationalism and fascism i.e. why would anyone refer to nationalist on one sides as fascist and not on the other.

Happened to me once, but in my case it was very noticeable as the police locked the area (until they and the corner finish) luckily it was double track and soon another train picked us up. btw I don't want to sound incentive, but people who really want to commit suicide, and not crying for attention or looking to cause a **** storm, can find much easier less gruesome ways to go to everyone involved.

Spoiled kid from private high school, with car and phone privileges. Who run away from home after her parents took her privileges for being suspended from school. Suing the parents once it got real, and she realized what independence means. did I miss anything ?! "(They) should be required to provide for my support and education until I can stand on my own two feet. In order to do this, I had to take legal action." - You gotta love the rights without responsibilities system.

Considering our last post, i'd say the big issue is whether anyone other than Russian propaganda tool would call it 'fascist putsch'... First let me start with a little detour, stating the obvious that most conflicts are economical in nature. For example Egypt revolution, was about economic uncertainty, poor infrastructure etc( e.g. job opportunities and access to running water) although it was later hijacked by external interest and turned into a Religious vs Secularist conflict. Similarly in Syria the economic situation aggravated by the drought of 2011, was helped by Iran into becoming a sectarian conflict first(the good ol' fear mongering they are coming to get you, to mobilize Alawite minority and forget they to wasn't too happy with Assad government). Same goes here the crisis in Ukraine started as economical and was guided into East vs West by Russia, by bulling its smaller neighbor into compliance with its policy and the Euromaiden protest were about Ukraine Economy and Yanukovych's rule, against Soviet-inherited corruption, kleptocracy, nepotism and Russia bullying. I agree with your assessment in the rest of your post, Ukrainian situation is complex (economically and socially), both sides has valid grievances and both sides need to take a good doze of reality. Which is why they needed to unite and deal with their issues, to achieve popular legitimacy. Otherwise any attempt by the state which is perceived as corrupt to the bone and Russia steering the pot will only end like Syria/Egypt. So where fascist crap comes in and why? this and other reports started to flow in volume from Russian national media(which I like to call Putin Daily Pravda) once Yanukovych began loosing control of the situation. With the goal of de-legitimizing the protesters who seen as working against Russian interests in Ukraine and Crimea in particular(where Russian fleet is parked). Trying to marginalize actual issues by perpetuation an image people can easily recognize and discredit. If you are un familiar with Russian media/censorship, sentiments toward ww2/fascist and the large Russian ethnic in east Ukraine, where several major ww2 battles were fought. Think about it in terms of Fox news demographic response to economic initiative labeled as communist initiative and rammed 24/7. This and some other previously discussed/mentioned issues(like fear mongering, organization/planing) is something you can incite the crowds with (if you look closely at the Pro-Russian demonstration you can easily spot the ww2 themed posters) overall helping Russia to create a counter block to Euromaiden that would promote its interests. With one winner Russia, and one looser Ukraine across all ethnics. Btw as previously noted, it doesn't mean that recent conflict didn't gave rise to various radicals on both sides. The question if those people define either side (as oppose to the usual crowd that was drawn once the violence started like a mouth to a flame, including the Euromaiden protesters in the last month, government employed thugs, and now pro-Russia protesters) or propoganda effort to perpetuate a certain image to advance once cause ... p.s. I hope it's not too tl;dr kind of post, I tried to keep it short. Personally, I suspect that Russia gave him asylum and his statement was part of their deal.

^ I agree. There were pedophiles before internet kidy porn, and they would exist without it, your point? also gun control

Until you do look more into it, you couldn't say anything for certain. Not if you (dis)agree with referring to it as a fascist putsch or as alien abduction and anal probing. When you do look into it, please feel free to explain your reasons and discuss. Edited.

In the case of Bishnu Shrestha, he didn't have a gun, he had a khukuri. IIRC, the thieves (who originally started out as just robbers before deciding to try to rape the young woman) were armed with knives and guns, however many (if not all) of the guns may have been fakes (apparently a common ploy in banditry in India). If they had real guns they were at a disadvantage of the crowded space (a lot of chance to hit each other, not as much chance to hit Shreshta) and the fact that Shrestha was a trained military man having just left military service and familiar with his weapon of choice and its use. It is a nice story, even heroic. However, I wasn't really commenting on it or the type of weapon used in it, but the context in which it was posted, since such stories are commonly used to set the tone for the "self defense" argument in such discussions.

So you don't think that "Euromaiden demonstrations" were "fascist putsch in Ukraine"? if so please enlighten me where exactly it became a fascist putsch ( I hope it is not yet again the demagoguery over language )

are you sure you want to get on that high horse over calling Euromaiden demonstrations "fascist putsch in Ukraine"... maybe you should pick better Wikipedia citations...

something little different for this thread: